Realignment revisited - The beginning of the end for Big East football

[Scooch]

Interesting piece revisiting the demise of Big East football, which essentially fell apart 10 years ago this fall...

Realignment revisited: The beginning of the end for Big East football

How college football's massive realignment shift in 2011 set the stage for Big East football to go under.

www.espn.com

Two things stood out to me:

1) Dr. Gross noted that conference realignment issues weren't on the agenda of a league meeting in March 2011, which is utterly mind-blowing given how much rumor and innuendo was swirling then.

Gross remembers attending one set of meetings before the conference basketball tournament in 2011, looking at the agenda and seeing nothing listed on the topic of expansion. "To this day, I have no idea why no one wanted to touch the subject," Gross said. "It was almost like, if we don't talk about it, then we don't have to worry about it."

2) Many long-time conference members were "blindsided" when SU accepted our ACC invite.

Despite the uncertainty and fragility of the Big East, multiple people described feeling "blindsided" that Syracuse and Pitt -- two of the league's most identifiable members, including one founding member -- would leave. One person said it "shook the conference to its core."

That's equally mind-blowing, since we had been linked to potential ACC expansion since the 90s, and we were about to join 8 years prior had the wheels not come off the process in 2003.

The amount of denial and incompetence amongst those in the Big East was truly breathtaking.

 

[Chip]

They must have thought that adding UConn football in 2005 would fix everything.

Weird that it didn't.

 

[Scooch]

They must have thought that adding UConn football in 2005 would fix everything.

Weird that it didn't.

One interesting hypothetical involving UConn... That piece mentions the 2012 Big 12 expansion that pitted Louisville vs. West Virginia, which the latter won, obviously. I always thought Louisville was a better choice for the B12 -- closer geographically, larger market, and a more well-funded athletic program.

Had the B12 not been blinded by the short term dynamic (WVU was a top 10 football program at the time), and invited UL like they should have, what would have happened when Maryland bolted the ACC? Would UConn have been the choice had it been them vs. WVU? I think it would have been closer than when it was them vs. UL.

 

[Chip]

One interesting hypothetical involving UConn... That piece mentions the 2012 Big 12 expansion that pitted Louisville vs. West Virginia, which the latter won, obviously. I always thought Louisville was a better choice for the B12 -- closer geographically, larger market, and a more well-funded athletic program.

Had the B12 not been blinded by the short term dynamic (WVU was a top 10 football program at the time), and invited UL like they should have, what would have happened when Maryland bolted the ACC? Would UConn have been the choice had it been them vs. WVU? I think it would have been closer than when it was them vs. UL.

It's a good question. In the end, if they put it to a vote, I think WVU would have won out based on football relevancy alone.

 

[syrBossHogg]

They must have thought that adding UConn football in 2005 would fix everything.

Weird that it didn't.

And then Nova possibly moving back up to D1

 

[Scooch]

And then Nova possibly moving back up to D1

That period of potential Big East expansion was fascinating. Pretty sure, prior to SU and Pitt leaving and the conference imploding, we might have had a 10 team football league consisting of: SU, BC, Pitt, WVU, UConn, Rutgers, Louisville, USF, Cincy, Villanova -- with rumblings of adding UCF and Navy to get to 12.

And people complain about the ACC!?

*edit* I neglected TCU, who was already admitted. So would have been 11 with 'Nova. Still, yuck.

 

[baggerbob]

Interesting piece revisiting the demise of Big East football, which essentially fell apart 10 years ago this fall...

Realignment revisited: The beginning of the end for Big East football

How college football's massive realignment shift in 2011 set the stage for Big East football to go under.

www.espn.com

Two things stood out to me:

1) Dr. Gross noted that conference realignment issues weren't on the agenda of a league meeting in March 2011, which is utterly mind-blowing given how much rumor and innuendo was swirling then.




2) Many long-time conference members were "blindsided" when SU accepted our ACC invite.



That's equally mind-blowing, since we had been linked to potential ACC expansion since the 90s, and we were about to join 8 years prior had the wheels not come off the process in 2003.

The amount of denial and incompetence amongst those in the Big East was truly breathtaking.

When St John's, Georgetown, and Villanova shot down Penn St joining it was just a matter of time before Syracuse,and BC would have to leave. When the courts took the football tv package away from the NCAA, everything had to change.

 

[syrBossHogg]

That period of potential Big East expansion was fascinating. Pretty sure, prior to SU and Pitt leaving and the conference imploding, we might have had a 10 team football league consisting of: SU, BC, Pitt, WVU, UConn, Rutgers, Louisville, USF, Cincy, Villanova -- with rumblings of adding UCF and Navy to get to 12.

And people complain about the ACC!?

That was such a dark period, if not for the Hoops team killing it back then I would've gone mad lol. I think this iteration of the board just started a few months before the ACC announcement happened, but I'm pretty sure the the realignment talk happened for all of 2010 on the old board, if not earlier.

 

[Bayside44]

That was such a dark period, if not for the Hoops team killing it back then I would've gone mad lol. I think this iteration of the board just started a few months before the ACC announcement happened, but I'm pretty sure the the realignment talk happened for all of 2010 on the old board, if not earlier.

If anyone is able to get a copy of the board 2003 post championship that's all it was, spirited free passionate discussion on all things expansion.

 

[Scooch]

When St John's, Georgetown, and Villanova shot down Penn St joining it was just a matter of time before Syracuse,and BC would have to leave. When the courts took the football tv package away from the NCAA, everything had to change.

Yep. And the Big East was always betwixt-and-between. The football conference was never going to have staying power. If I recall correctly, only Miami got full membership. WVU and Rutgers didn't get into the league fully until the mid 90s, VaTech didn't get in fully for even longer, and Temple never did. That's no recipe for stability.

 

[elimunelson]

#MARYLANDMOLE

I was introduced to the Board in 2003 with the original expansion talk. Glorious times.

I think the sliding doors scenario of us going to the ACC in 2004 with Miami and BC would have been such a better outcome for our football program at that time. Maybe Crouthamel sticks around to see the program through the initial few years in a new conference, maybe Gross never comes, maybe P is able to survive in 04 and recruit w the ACC as our new conference.

I think lingering like a stale fart in the Big East coupled with a nuclear head coach hire was truly a 1-2 punch of problems

 

[HRE Otto IV]

In hindsight the Northeast needed a football Gavitt. It should have been an 8 team all sport league founded in 1979 of Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, VA Tech.

Then in 1989 it should have been proactive and added Miami, FSU, South Carolina, ECU before anyone else expanded. That hits all but GA, MD, Conn on the East coast.

The North-South split:

North - SU, BC, RU, PSU, Pitt, Temple
South - Miami, FSU, SC, ECU, WV, VA Tech

This would have stunk for basketball though.

In 2003 do we see anyone go to 14? Is Penn State really leaving that cushy division for the B1G? Without Penn State the B1G isn't adding MD or RU, so how do they even eventually get to 12 (Nebraska and Mizzou or KU)? By not getting SC would the SEC have added a Texas school to get to 12 (Houston)? The ACC is the weak conference in 2003 so do they lose Clemson and UNC to the SEC? MD and GA Tech to the Northeast? Duke gets left out? Is the original B12 still the original?

 

[longtimefan]

In hindsight the Northeast needed a football Gavitt. It should have been an 8 team all sport league founded in 1979 of Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, VA Tech.

Then in 1989 it should have been proactive and added Miami, FSU, South Carolina, ECU before anyone else expanded. That hits all but GA, MD, Conn on the East coast.

The North-South split:

North - SU, BC, RU, PSU, Pitt, Temple
South - Miami, FSU, SC, ECU, WV, VA Tech

This would have stunk for basketball though.

In 2003 do we see anyone go to 14? Is Penn State really leaving that cushy division for the B1G? Without Penn State the B1G isn't adding MD or RU, so how do they even eventually get to 12 (Nebraska and Mizzou or KU)? By not getting SC would the SEC have added a Texas school to get to 12 (Houston)? The ACC is the weak conference in 2003 so do they lose Clemson and UNC to the SEC? MD and GA Tech to the Northeast? Duke gets left out? Is the original B12 still the original?

If you really want some on-line action, post this scenario on The Boneyard.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

In hindsight the Northeast needed a football Gavitt. It should have been an 8 team all sport league founded in 1979 of Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, VA Tech.

Then in 1989 it should have been proactive and added Miami, FSU, South Carolina, ECU before anyone else expanded. That hits all but GA, MD, Conn on the East coast.

The North-South split:

North - SU, BC, RU, PSU, Pitt, Temple
South - Miami, FSU, SC, ECU, WV, VA Tech

This would have stunk for basketball though.

In 2003 do we see anyone go to 14? Is Penn State really leaving that cushy division for the B1G? Without Penn State the B1G isn't adding MD or RU, so how do they even eventually get to 12 (Nebraska and Mizzou or KU)? By not getting SC would the SEC have added a Texas school to get to 12 (Houston)? The ACC is the weak conference in 2003 so do they lose Clemson and UNC to the SEC? MD and GA Tech to the Northeast? Duke gets left out? Is the original B12 still the original?

Do the Big East BBall schools even join together? You sill have Georgetown, Providence, Seton Hall, St Johns, UConn. Do they keep it Catholic and not even invite UConn? Does that bring Holy Cross in? Does Villanova still join? St Bonnies comes along? Who else? Duquesne?

So it may have ended up GTown, PC, Seton Hall, Johnies, Nova, Bonnies, Duquesne, Holy Cross. Which means UConn never happens.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I'm picturing Gross as your Love Boat bartender...

"We were all aware of the movement happening around us," former Syracuse athletic director Daryl Gross said. "We just had a TV deal fall through with the Big East, and the Big East is looking like a burning ship, and there's a cruise ship here to pick us up. So what are you going to do?"

 

[elimunelson]

I'm picturing Gross as your Love Boat bartender...

Love boat
Love, exciting and new
Come aboard. we're expecting you.

 

[Scooch]

In hindsight the Northeast needed a football Gavitt. It should have been an 8 team all sport league founded in 1979 of Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, VA Tech.

Then in 1989 it should have been proactive and added Miami, FSU, South Carolina, ECU before anyone else expanded. That hits all but GA, MD, Conn on the East coast.

The North-South split:

North - SU, BC, RU, PSU, Pitt, Temple
South - Miami, FSU, SC, ECU, WV, VA Tech

This would have stunk for basketball though.

In 2003 do we see anyone go to 14? Is Penn State really leaving that cushy division for the B1G? Without Penn State the B1G isn't adding MD or RU, so how do they even eventually get to 12 (Nebraska and Mizzou or KU)? By not getting SC would the SEC have added a Texas school to get to 12 (Houston)? The ACC is the weak conference in 2003 so do they lose Clemson and UNC to the SEC? MD and GA Tech to the Northeast? Duke gets left out? Is the original B12 still the original?

It's fun to mock up these 'what if' scenarios. I think the challenge was that there really wasn't enough high quality all-sports programs in the northeast in the 70s and 80s. For the most part, the best hoops programs were the small private schools, while some of the best football schools had terrible hoops programs.

Being a football independent was actually viable up, until the SCOTUS case in the mid-80s. By then the huge, unexpected success of the Big East hoops conference really posed a problem in the sense that it was not going to be easy (or revenue-positive in the short term) for SU, Pitt and BC to walk away.

Personally, I think the missed opportunity occurred in 1989-90. From what I understand, after Penn State announced that they were joining the B10, there was a serious proposal made to create an east coast, all-sports super-conference. I believe pillars would have been SU/Pitt/BC, along with Miami, Florida State, Louisville and South Carolina, among others.

Superconference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Scooch]

FWIW, it's notable that in the Superconference piece on Wikipedia I linked to above, SU is mentioned as a potential member of the first three proposed super-conferences (the first one coming in 1959!).

Which makes it all the more ridiculous that former Big East administrators were "blind sided" by us leaving in 2011.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

It's fun to mock up these 'what if' scenarios. I think the challenge was that there really wasn't enough high quality all-sports programs in the northeast in the 70s and 80s. For the most part, the best hoops programs were the small private schools, while some of the best football schools had terrible hoops programs.

Being a football independent was actually viable up, until the SCOTUS case in the mid-80s. By then the huge, unexpected success of the Big East hoops conference really posed a problem in the sense that it was not going to be easy (or revenue-positive in the short term) for SU, Pitt and BC to walk away.

Personally, I think the missed opportunity occurred in 1989-90. From what I understand, after Penn State announced that they were joining the B10, there was a serious proposal made to create an east coast, all-sports super-conference. I believe pillars would have been SU/Pitt/BC, along with Miami, Florida State, Louisville and South Carolina, among others.

Superconference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The Big East was created due to the requirements for being in a conference. Outside of St Johns the rest of the Big East schools weren’t much different than the football schools. Georgetown and UConn were nothing programs. Rutgers was better than both.

If the football schools had the vision they are the ones on ESPN and becoming a legit BBall conference.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Here's your Big East Administration:

Half the teams were football schools who wanted expansion.

Half the teams were basketball schools who wanted status quo.

Neither side had a voting majority, so NOTHING got done.

Not hard to see why Miami, Va Tech, BC, Pitt, SU, WV, Louisville got frustrated and left.

I feel bad for Cincinnati, who got left holding the bag.

USF and UConn were FBS members for like 10 minutes, so it sucks to be them.

 

[Scooch]

The Big East was created due to the requirements for being in a conference. Outside of St Johns the rest of the Big East schools weren’t much different than the football schools. Georgetown and UConn were nothing programs. Rutgers was better than both.

If the football schools had the vision they are the ones on ESPN and becoming a legit BBall conference.

I'm not so sure about that. Thompson had turned Georgetown around in the mid-70s, they had made a few NCAA tourneys in the years prior to the BE. Providence had made the tourney multiple times in the 70s including a FF. UConn made a couple tourneys as well.

Granted Rutgers was better, but didn't they make it known they were staying in their conference? I thought they were being considered to rep NJ along with Seton Hall, but the latter jumped on the chance while Rutgers didn't.

I get the vision point you're making, but the financial dynamics were wildly different prior to the SCOTUS ruling.

 

[elimunelson]

It's fun to mock up these 'what if' scenarios. I think the challenge was that there really wasn't enough high quality all-sports programs in the northeast in the 70s and 80s. For the most part, the best hoops programs were the small private schools, while some of the best football schools had terrible hoops programs.

Being a football independent was actually viable up, until the SCOTUS case in the mid-80s. By then the huge, unexpected success of the Big East hoops conference really posed a problem in the sense that it was not going to be easy (or revenue-positive in the short term) for SU, Pitt and BC to walk away.

Personally, I think the missed opportunity occurred in 1989-90. From what I understand, after Penn State announced that they were joining the B10, there was a serious proposal made to create an east coast, all-sports super-conference. I believe pillars would have been SU/Pitt/BC, along with Miami, Florida State, Louisville and South Carolina, among others.

Superconference - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

To me the entire pivot was Penn St. So many different machinations allowed for time to march on. Namely Miami joining the Big East as a placeholder for their football machinery and a spot to create equity in their hoops program.

But Penn St drove all the decision making. They are really the only viable northeast superpower in football that drove the bus to realignment before the money truly made the decision a moot point.

Syracuse didn't make a decision based on the per annum for membership. It was suicide to not leave.

 

[NKR1978]

That's a really great article. I'm so glad we ended up where we did.

I was in Vegas for a wedding when the news broke and was glued to my phone and this board all day. My first 4G phone where the batter lasted maybe 2 hours.

Also - this infurates me: Added Jurich: "I know a lot of people's feelings were hurt, especially the schools that had been in that league for a while. They were crushed because they had such a great loyalty and relationships with those schools."

Those schools had no loyalty to us. The Conference had no loyalty to us. They used us to build their programs and blew up Penn State joining. The conference didn't lift a finger when we qualified for a bowl game and didn't get one. I don't know if the ACC is loyal to us, but the Big East and its schools being "loyal" is historical fiction.

 

[Scooch]

That's a really great article. I'm so glad we ended up where we did.

I was in Vegas for a wedding when the news broke and was glued to my phone and this board all day. My first 4G phone where the batter lasted maybe 2 hours.

Also - this infurates me: Added Jurich: "I know a lot of people's feelings were hurt, especially the schools that had been in that league for a while. They were crushed because they had such a great loyalty and relationships with those schools."

Those schools had no loyalty to us. The Conference had no loyalty to us. They used us to build their programs and blew up Penn State joining. The conference didn't lift a finger when we qualified for a bowl game and didn't get one. I don't know if the ACC is loyal to us, but the Big East and its schools being "loyal" is historical fiction.

Your point about loyalty is the dead-on truth. That Gator Bowl screw job is example #1 of how the conference wasn't loyal to us. #2 was the absurd amount of weekend hoops road games we were forced to play at one point, so other programs could draw more than the usual amount of flies they got for weekday games.

For a number of years we were the ONLY Big East program investing large sums in both football and hoops. That was never rewarded.

 

[Newhouser]

Oliver Luck may be the biggest hypocrite in sports.