Realignment revisited - The beginning of the end for Big East football

[Alsacs]

The Big XII wasn’t proactive because they wanted the Big Ten and SEC to destroy the ACC.
The SEC didn’t want to destroy the ACC but were interested in UNC.

The Big Ten wanted to blackmail UVA and UNC into joining the Big Ten.
The Big East was a mess because the basketball and football schools had separate agendas.

The Big XII could have replaced Colorado and Nebraska with Louisville and Cincinnati or Pittsburgh and West Virginia.

The Big XII had stupid leadership like the Big East. They let Texas dictate keeping the conference at 10 rather than be proactive.
When Missouri and A&M left the conference lost all leverage.

The ACC survived because of ESPN plain and simple. The WWL worked with the conference when it didn’t have too.
The Big Ten went into bed with Fox when they started the BTN and ESPN didn’t forget that.

The SEC liked their spot and didn’t care CBS had their tier 1 rights.
The Big Ten went more in bed with Fox and ESPN solidified they own the SEC, ACC, Big XII and half of the PAC-12 and a part of the Big Ten.

Expansion was screwed up by a bunch of conferences if I had time I could write a good book somebody else is probably doing now.

 

[SU68]

In hindsight the Northeast needed a football Gavitt. It should have been an 8 team all sport league founded in 1979 of Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, VA Tech.

Then in 1989 it should have been proactive and added Miami, FSU, South Carolina, ECU before anyone else expanded. That hits all but GA, MD, Conn on the East coast.

The North-South split:

North - SU, BC, RU, PSU, Pitt, Temple
South - Miami, FSU, SC, ECU, WV, VA Tech

This would have stunk for basketball though.

In 2003 do we see anyone go to 14? Is Penn State really leaving that cushy division for the B1G? Without Penn State the B1G isn't adding MD or RU, so how do they even eventually get to 12 (Nebraska and Mizzou or KU)? By not getting SC would the SEC have added a Texas school to get to 12 (Houston)? The ACC is the weak conference in 2003 so do they lose Clemson and UNC to the SEC? MD and GA Tech to the Northeast? Duke gets left out? Is the original B12 still the original?

The football Gavitt was Joe Paterno at Penn State. He proposed the all sports league but nobody listened. He was a voice crying in the wilderness.

 

[Alsacs]

The football Gavitt was Joe Paterno at Penn State. He proposed the all sports league but nobody listened. He was a voice crying in the wilderness.

Joe Paterno didn’t want to treat the other schools like equal partners.

He didn’t want the Eastern teams to share gate revenues and he wanted Penn State to get more home games than the other teams.
His plan wasn’t accepted because he wasn’t willing to be a true partner.

 

[Scooch]

The football Gavitt was Joe Paterno at Penn State. He proposed the all sports league but nobody listened. He was a voice crying in the wilderness.

That’s preposterous. Paterno cared about Penn State and nothing else. His all-sports proposal involved treating every other potential member as subservient to PSU. They rightfully laughed off his proposal, it was straight self-serving garbage.

**edit** My tone was too harsh. However, JP was not a visionary. He simply pushed a lousy proposal because it was the best way to address the fact that PSU athletics, outside of football, needed serious help.

 

[Admiral Koga]

That’s preposterous. Paterno cared about Penn State and nothing else. His all-sports proposal involved treating every other potential member as subservient to PSU. They rightfully laughed off his proposal, it was straight self-serving garbage.

**edit** My tone was too harsh. However, JP was not a visionary. He simply pushed a lousy proposal because it was the best way to address the fact that PSU athletics, outside of football, needed serious help.

This Paterno as visionary is pure garbage. Even if his EASC was formed in the late 70's/early 80s, what would have prevented PSU from jumping to the big 10 in the mid 90s? It wouldn't have been his call (trustees/chancellor level) and, as we found out later, nothing is too slimy for PSU.

 

[elimunelson]

That’s preposterous. Paterno cared about Penn State and nothing else. His all-sports proposal involved treating every other potential member as subservient to PSU. They rightfully laughed off his proposal, it was straight self-serving garbage.

**edit** My tone was too harsh. However, JP was not a visionary. He simply pushed a lousy proposal because it was the best way to address the fact that PSU athletics, outside of football, needed serious help.

Joe was trying to help Joe but did ultimately hold the nuclear football pun intended. Didn’t he try and get us to do a non 1-1 for scheduling end of 80s and we told
Him to off.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Joe was trying to help Joe but did ultimately hold the nuclear football pun intended. Didn’t he try and get us to do a non 1-1 for scheduling end of 80s and we told
Him to off.

We had a 5-5 deal that we usually renewed every 10 years.

After 1990, he wanted a 6-4 deal, and Jake told him to pound sand.

We countered with a 4-4 deal, but JoePa didn't budge.

Didn't matter, as PSU headed for the B1G and wouldn't have played us as a non-con anyways. PSU wouldn't even schedule Pitt until after JoePa was in the ground.

 

[Alsacs]

Joe was trying to help Joe but did ultimately hold the nuclear football pun intended. Didn’t he try and get us to do a non 1-1 for scheduling end of 80s and we told
Him to off.

Joe was the AD at Penn State as well and wanted a home for their non football programs.
He didn’t want to treat the Eastern schools as equals.

Ohio State treats Northwestern and Purdue as equals.

The big dogs in conferences have to do that.
Penn State didn’t want to do that so they the Eastern all-sports conference never happened.

 

[elimunelson]

Joe was the AD at Penn State as well and wanted a home for their non football programs.
He didn’t want to treat the Eastern schools as equals.

Ohio State treats Northwestern and Purdue as equals.

The big dogs in conferences have to do that.
Penn State didn’t want to do that so they the Eastern all-sports conference never happened.

they played their cards right in hindsight b/c being in the Big 10 is something. It was, as all programs proved, a selfish move that was good for them only. Same with Syracuse going to the ACC, Rutgers to Big 10, etc.

Ultimately it was, as is everything, all about money. If college sports just split everything revenue sharing wise like the NFL, we'd have our own AFC East with Penn St for sure.

 

[Chip]

We had a 5-5 deal that we usually renewed every 10 years.

After 1990, he wanted a 6-4 deal, and Jake told him to pound sand.

We countered with a 4-4 deal, but JoePa didn't budge.

Didn't matter, as PSU headed for the B1G and wouldn't have played us as a non-con anyways. PSU wouldn't even schedule Pitt until after JoePa was in the ground.

 

[SU68]

That’s preposterous. Paterno cared about Penn State and nothing else. His all-sports proposal involved treating every other potential member as subservient to PSU. They rightfully laughed off his proposal, it was straight self-serving garbage.

**edit** My tone was too harsh. However, JP was not a visionary. He simply pushed a lousy proposal because it was the best way to address the fact that PSU athletics, outside of football, needed serious help.

I understand your point. My point was that he had the vision, regardless of his motive, when no one else did.

 

[Scooch]

they played their cards right in hindsight b/c being in the Big 10 is something. It was, as all programs proved, a selfish move that was good for them only. Same with Syracuse going to the ACC, Rutgers to Big 10, etc.

Ultimately it was, as is everything, all about money. If college sports just split everything revenue sharing wise like the NFL, we'd have our own AFC East with Penn St for sure.

You're 100% right, ultimately its all about money and self-interest. Most of the top-tier programs know that the long-term value of stability is worth playing nice with other members of a conference. Ohio State knows that, USC knows that, even UNC knows that... Texas does not. Penn State did not.

But it worked out for PSU because they were always a natural fit in the B1G, institutionally, even if it pulled them away from their east coast alumni roots.

It'd be ideal if there was a true, northeastern, all-sports conference for SU to be a member of. But historically it was just never in the cards -- too much institutional disparity, too many schools deemphasizing football, too much self interest. It's a different world if the Colgates and Holy Crosses and Army's of the world didn't decide in the 50s and 60s that big time football just wasn't their thing. It's a different world if the Villanovas and Connecticuts and UMass's did.

All things considered, SU ended up in the best possible place.

 

[Scooch]

I understand your point. My point was that he had the vision, regardless of his motive, when no one else did.

I'm not sure that no one else did, though. An eastern all-sports conference wasn't a novel concept, it had been floated before. I don't know about the 70s, but in the 80s there was always chatter about the football "east indies" (remember that?) uniting into a conference.

I guess I'm saying that "vision" ain't worth much if its not accompanied by a legitimate plan to execute. Paterno's was DOA.

 

[OttoMets]

...

I get the vision point you're making, but the financial dynamics were wildly different prior to the SCOTUS ruling.

I'm not familiar with this. Link?

 

[Orangejet]

I remember the locker room chat we use to have in the L70’s/E80’s about getting into an eastern conference with our peers and it was all positive. Would have traded the ECAC for the Big Northeast Conference any day of the week.

 

[OburgOrange]

I think I read where the Big 10 offered us twice, and we refused? Anyone?

 

[elimunelson]

I think I read where the Big 10 offered us twice, and we refused? Anyone?

during the time we went to the ACC? There was plenty of smoke we were being courted but we took the first train out when the ACC invited us I think. It would be interesting had we gotten a Big 10 invitation before the ACC one? I mean the Big 10 would prefer us to Rutgers right? We would have done very well hoops wise in that conference. Football would have been a struggle I gather in most years.

 

[Alsacs]

I think I read where the Big 10 offered us twice, and we refused? Anyone?

Big Ten was interested in us but never formally offered.
The ACC offered us and Florida State in 1990 and we declined.

 

[Scooch]

I'm not familiar with this. Link?

NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

NCAA v. Board of Regents of the University of Oklahoma, 468 U.S. 85 (1984), was a case in which the Supreme Court of the United States held that the National Collegiate Athletic Association (NCAA) television plan violated the Sherman and Clayton Antitrust Acts, which were designed to prohibit group actions that restrained open competition and trade.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

I think I read where the Big 10 offered us twice, and we refused? Anyone?

You have us confused with UMass.

 

[pattycuse]

Oliver Luck may be the biggest hypocrite in sports.

The mere fact that he chose to share that anecdote about John Marinatto, who has passed away and is unable to defend himself, tells you all you need to know about Luck as a human.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

AACK is a better conference than the BE at the end.

We bear a lot of responsibility for the Big East being trash after Miami and VT left (and BC who actually dominated the ACC off the bat and had a great run with Matt Ryan.)

If the league had Pedo St and not Buttgers and Temple I think the TV money would have been there and we are the ones who do the poaching. ACC would have been lame ducks. You also would have gotten hoop only away games in the major cities if you brought football over. Big East would be the original teams + PSU + Duke, UNC, FSU, maybe UVA.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

In hindsight the Northeast needed a football Gavitt. It should have been an 8 team all sport league founded in 1979 of Syracuse, BC, Rutgers, Penn State, Pitt, Temple, West Virginia, VA Tech.

Then in 1989 it should have been proactive and added Miami, FSU, South Carolina, ECU before anyone else expanded. That hits all but GA, MD, Conn on the East coast.

The North-South split:

North - SU, BC, RU, PSU, Pitt, Temple
South - Miami, FSU, SC, ECU, WV, VA Tech

This would have stunk for basketball though.

In 2003 do we see anyone go to 14? Is Penn State really leaving that cushy division for the B1G? Without Penn State the B1G isn't adding MD or RU, so how do they even eventually get to 12 (Nebraska and Mizzou or KU)? By not getting SC would the SEC have added a Texas school to get to 12 (Houston)? The ACC is the weak conference in 2003 so do they lose Clemson and UNC to the SEC? MD and GA Tech to the Northeast? Duke gets left out? Is the original B12 still the original?

Back in ‘89 it probably wouldn’t have seemed relevant but swap Cincinnati for Temple and Louisville for East Carolina and come today that conference would be very solid in football and hoops while covering some fertile recruiting grounds.