We need to go back to the big east

[tbonezone]

There are plenty of reasons for the decline a Syracuse basketball but moving to the ACC isn’t one of them.

Syracuse was put on probation and lost scholarships.

Other teams used Boeheim’s age to recruit against him. Boeheim was being out worked in recruiting by other coaches, sending assistant coaches to recruit against head coaches.

We used zone defense which worked great when teams had 1-2 shooters. Offenses have changed where teams have 3-4 shooters on the court. This defense also required us to have superior length and athleticism which we haven’t had in a while.

For years we have a very basic offense which works well with superior athletes and upper classmen who have played together. It gives players a lot of freedom and allows for playmakers to make plays but lacks structure and doesn’t create easy shots for players.

Players are now getting NIL that has favored large state schools with large alumni bases that tend to be more local. State schools rarely run the athletic department like a business and frequently subsidize athletics. OSU won the national championship last year but lost $28 million dollars. It paid off for them as they set records for revenue the following year. Syracuse University doesn’t run the athletic department department like that and that likely doesn’t pay off of OSU if they didn’t have the on field success.

Syracuse is also a mid market city in an area that is dominated by professional sports. Whether you are talking about game attendance, tv viewership, or corporate sponsorship Syracuse is at a disadvantage to many of these schools in areas with limited professional options. Western NY has the Bills and Sabers while NYC has the Giants, Jets, Yankees, Mets, Knicks, Nets, Rangers, Islanders, Devils, and Red Bulls.

The weakness of the the move to the ACC wasn’t so much geography as it was the TV contracts the ACC signed. The long term TV contract and grant of rights was seen as huge plus to the stability of the league when Syracuse joined. It now has been surpassed by other leagues who have renegotiated multiple times since then.

If Syracuse hadn’t joined the ACC back then we would be in a worse place. The Big East couldn’t function with some schools playing football and others not playing. Syracuse was not going to abandon football and we likely would have ended up in the Big12 or even worse ConferenceUSA or the American Conference. We have almost no historical ties to those schools. The games would be harder to travel to and the university would have significantly less money to invest into Athletics.

excellent post . well reasoned and researched. you and others like to argue we would be in a much worse place as an institution had we stayed put. yet those schools who chose to stay behind still exist. why some have even won several national titles. so when you talk about money , which you and your peers believe to be the alpha and omega of college sports... what price do you affix to twenty plus years of sucking in conference play ? and the eventual toll that takes on your image and fan base ? what exactly is that cost compared to TV dollars. curious. cuz we suck and by all measures .winning gone . rivalries gone. the thrill gone, attendance down. so what did your money buy exactly ? better seats for the big spenders ? well better seats to watch what ? not league champions.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Half of the current Big East is teams we have never played or barely played historically.

Just wait until we are in the B12 and playing half of our games west of the Mississippi and at 9pm.

 

[baggerbob]

Wasn't invited.

And SU Football would have been irrelevant in the Big 10.

How do you compete with 85,000-110,000 seat stadiums and HUGE alumni bases?

But we could win a few Big10 hoops games 47-45.

And like someone said, our Alumni base is scattered up and down the east coast. Not too many SU alums in Iowa or Minnesota.

Had we not jumped to the ACC there is no way the Big would have taken Rutgers over Syracuse for the New York market. And don't even bring up the research , Nebraska was out even before they got in.
The cable boxes would have come easier with Syracuse and that's all the Big wanted.

 

[Cusefan95]

Many Big East teams have fine basketball teams and lower division football teams. We gave up 77 points to a football team that did not make the playoffs. In the ACC we cannot recruit the way we did in the Big East. It is embarrassing to be a Syracuse fan in the ACC.

Which of those schools built a giant Dome for football? None of them, right?

That has a massive impact here, its a huge building that cannot possibly be justified if we're playing FCS football in front of 10,000 fans. The most likely option is we demo the Dome, move football to a smaller venue elsewhere, and move basketball to the War Memorial. If you think Syracuse moving basketball from a Dome with a massive national reputation to a small old barn would do anything other than signal to the world that Syracuse basketball is DOA...I want some of what you are smoking. If you think we stay playing basketball in the Dome while football loses massive amount of money (which is inevitable outside the P4)...I still want some of what you are smoking.

There is no route to success in basketball outside the P4. None at all. We either find a way to make it work in the ACC, or we become increasingly irrelevant in all sports. I get that there's a huge desire on the part of older fans who fondly remember the Big East to ignore that - but pointing to other Big East schools with a totally different asset base and cost structure as examples to emulate is unworkable.

The key question is "how does the Dome work if we drop down to FCS football (or try to play FBS independent)"? And the answer is - it doesn't, its a white elephant disaster which pulls the entire AD down with it.

 

[blust2i3d4]

I don't think it is a good idea. Without UConn, Big East will soon disintegrated. Better help UConn admitted to ACC. And we need to be very careful, trying our best to keep ACC in tact. ACC can afford to lose two or four schools. If more than four, hopefully our football an basketball programs have already recovered to be picked up by B1G.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Which of those schools built a giant Dome for football? None of them, right?

That has a massive impact here, its a huge building that cannot possibly be justified if we're playing FCS football in front of 10,000 fans. The most likely option is we demo the Dome, move football to a smaller venue elsewhere, and move basketball to the War Memorial. If you think Syracuse moving basketball from a Dome with a massive national reputation to a small old barn would do anything other than signal to the world that Syracuse basketball is DOA...I want some of what you are smoking. If you think we stay playing basketball in the Dome while football loses massive amount of money (which is inevitable outside the P4)...I still want some of what you are smoking.

There is no route to success in basketball outside the P4. None at all. We either find a way to make it work in the ACC, or we become increasingly irrelevant in all sports. I get that there's a huge desire on the part of older fans who fondly remember the Big East to ignore that - but pointing to other Big East schools with a totally different asset base and cost structure as examples to emulate is unworkable.

The key question is "how does the Dome work if we drop down to FCS football (or try to play FBS independent)"? And the answer is - it doesn't, its a white elephant disaster which pulls the entire AD down with it.

Umm sorry. Jim Boeheim court was built and then the dome was built around it to protect it.

Check your timeline and facts.

 

[Millhouse]

Football drives the bus.

Who wants to be on a bus. Buses suck

College sports is so broken

 

[Cusefan95]

I find it wild that so many here think a school which successfully drove football into a deep ditch they've never gotten out of while they were in the Big East, wouldn't have ALSO run basketball into a ditch if we were still in the Big East. Or that going back to the Big East would magically fix anything.

"We should have stayed in the Big East, that way the administration wouldn't have done what they already had a history of doing! We should go back now, that will make the administration stop managing the AD they way they have for 45 years"!

Crazy.

 

[Jeremy L.]

ACC Football money is what funds the Women's and "Non-Revenue" sports.

Without football money, there would be no soccer, or field hockey, or rowing, etc...

Unlike our friends at UConn (who are STATE funded), Syracuse just can't cry to Albany everytime the Athletic Dept has a budget shortfall.

So when people sneer that we chased an ACC Football Paycheck, I reply "YOU'RE DAMNED RIGHT WE CHASED AN ACC FOOTBALL PAYCHECK".

Because there was no other choice. It was either $40 million a year from the ACC, or maybe $7 million a year from the American Conference.

Orphaning football, or demoting it to FCS level was never an option.

I understand that. I personally only care about the success of basketball and football. So ACC funding non-revenue sports doesn’t move the needle for me.

Like I said, the fans do not get anything in return for being ACC members. Thats why I don’t care about tv money. I only care about the team’s success.

Doesn’t matter what conference. Win games. That’s all that matters.

 

[Briancuse]

well basketball school driven duke won the ACC football crown .

They lost 5 games lol, including to uconn.

 

[Cuse117]

What we NEED to do is use the millions of dollars we saved by boeheim working at a severe discount for decades (that apparently doesn’t exist), and pay a real basketball coach.

 

[tbonezone]

They lost 5 games lol, including to uconn.

and have a championship banner to hang. Duke. Football. let that sink in.

 

[orange79]

Oh look another conference realignment post. DRINK.

I can't. I'm so drunk already from playing that game with Autry threads.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Taking FB out of the equation (which you can only do if FB splits from the other sports, or if there is a mega P2)...

While it is a lot harder to make the NCAAT, you could argue that from Thanksgiving to early March it would be more enjoyable as a fan.

What if we had the 9 OG teams and say West Virginia as #10 to round it off (or Notre Dame instead), plus MSG for the conference tourney? That means annual "road" games in Boston, Providence, NYC, Newark, Philly, and DC. We would probably go 10-3 OOC, 11-7 in conference, and 1-1 the conf tourney. Or 22-11 overall. BUT, that would put us squarely on the NCAAT bubble every year.

If we had the same record in a national super conference we would make the NCAAT but the regular season would be less enjoyable, as would the conference tournament. We also have a better chance at making an NCAAT run.

If the two teams played each other the super conference Cuse team would beat the Northeastern Cuse team.


We cannot choose to make the move now. But IMO it certainly should be a contingency plan depending on what happens with future realignment. Our goal should be to somehow make it into the P2. But if we get left out, we might as well be happy than a few dollars richer.

 

[Briancuse]

and have a championship banner to hang. Duke. Football. let that sink in.

A fugazi one, Miami should have been im the game.

 

[Cusefan95]

I understand that. I personally only care about the success of basketball and football. So ACC funding non-revenue sports doesn’t move the needle for me.

Like I said, the fans do not get anything in return for being ACC members. Thats why I don’t care about tv money. I only care about the team’s success.

Doesn’t matter what conference. Win games. That’s all that matters.

Division 1 schools must sponsor at least 14 sports (7 men, 7 women or 6 men, 8 women). So the money that allows Syracuse to even field a Division 1 football and basketball team is coming from the ACC contract. The non-revenue sports don't have to "move the needle for you" - but the lack of ability to fund them would "move the needle" when Syracuse had to drop down a division or two due to inability to fund enough sports to remain D1.

You don't care about the thing that actually allows Syracuse to participate in the sports that "move the needle" for you, without realizing there is no needle to be moved without the thing you don't care about. Its positions like this which make it hard to take a significant percentage of the fan base seriously.

 

[tbonezone]

FWIW miami has never won an ACC football title. nor has syracuse , BC, or louisville. former BE members va tech (4) and pitt (1) both have won the conference title.

 

[tbonezone]

So the money that allows Syracuse to even field a Division 1 football and basketball team is coming from the ACC contract.

WOW. i'd didn't realize that there were no D1 teams able to fund sports outside of the ACC !
thought maybe the revenue from that huge dome and nation leading attendance might help a bit ...

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Division 1 schools must sponsor at least 14 sports (7 men, 7 women or 6 men, 8 women). So the money that allows Syracuse to even field a Division 1 football and basketball team is coming from the ACC contract. The non-revenue sports don't have to "move the needle for you" - but the lack of ability to fund them would "move the needle" when Syracuse had to drop down a division or two due to inability to fund enough sports to remain D1.

You don't care about the thing that actually allows Syracuse to participate in the sports that "move the needle" for you, without realizing there is no needle to be moved without the thing you don't care about. Its positions like this which make it hard to take a significant percentage of the fan base seriously.

There are 365 D1 BBall programs and only 68 P4s. How do the other nearly 300 schools fund their sports? It is hard to take some of this fanbase seriously when they are so bad at math.