Realistically, who's coming our way?

[Francis03]

Thanks to Knicks's RSCI link and my penchant for wasting time on a slow Friday in the office, I ran a quick spreadsheet of our cumulative recruiting rankings (like in golf and XC, low score is best; rated each unranked kid as a 150). Shows how misleading that kind of thing can be: by this ranking, our best team was...this year (the only time this century we've had a top-eight with no unranked recruits). The next three best teams were 2014, 2008, and 2007. Our national championship team (with three unranked recruits) was near the bottom of the pack and the 2010 team, which many consider our best, was the second-worst.

The worst-ranked bunch of recruits was, of course, was the 2002 team, which I would also rank as our worst on-court team of the century, too. So the rankings aren't all wrong. That collection of guys also explains the coaching/recruiting change that happened right before that season.

The RSCI could be tough to figure proper #'s on prep recruits. Paul Harris and CMac were considered 5th year guys, so some of the rankings that the RSCI used didn't include them and it made their overall rankings dropped. I think everybody besides our friend crystal meth ball Jerry had CMac ranked in the top 25. While I know that skout had Harris ranked in the top 10, I think the other scouting services may have had him a little outside of that.

 

[OttoMets]

The RSCI could be tough to figure proper #'s on prep recruits. Paul Harris and CMac were considered 5th year guys, so some of the rankings that the RSCI used didn't include them and it made their overall rankings dropped. I think everybody besides our friend crystal meth ball Jerry had CMac ranked in the top 25. While I know that skout had Harris ranked in the top 10, I think the other scouting services may have had him a little outside of that.

Yep, checking it now, Harris was ranked 5, 10, 11, 12, 17, and not at all for a very misleading average of 23.

 

[NKR1978]

Thanks to Knicks's RSCI link and my penchant for wasting time on a slow Friday in the office, I ran a quick spreadsheet of our cumulative recruiting rankings (like in golf and XC, low score is best; rated each unranked kid as a 150). Shows how misleading that kind of thing can be: by this ranking, our best team was...this year (the only time this century we've had a top-eight with no unranked recruits). The next three best teams were 2014, 2008, and 2007. Our national championship team (with three unranked recruits) was near the bottom of the pack and the 2010 team, which many consider our best, was the second-worst.

The worst-ranked bunch of recruits was, of course, was the 2002 team, which I would also rank as our worst on-court team of the century, too. So the rankings aren't all wrong. That collection of guys also explains the coaching/recruiting change that happened right before that season.

And you got paid to do all that!

 

[Zelda Zonk]

To wit, 2011:

2. Austin Rivers
79. Trevor Cooney
94. Malcolm Brogdon

Give me the keys to a college basketball program and that's not the order in which I'd draft my team.

Not trying to be argumentative here, but what do you mean? In retrospect? You're not saying that, if you could 'draft' HS kids to your college program, you would have chosen Brogdon over Rivers, are you? Based on what you could have seen of HS games? Am i misunderstanding?

 

[NYCorange]

Not trying to be argumentative here, but what do you mean? In retrospect? You're not saying that, if you could 'draft' HS kids to your college program, you would have chosen Brogdon over Rivers, are you? Based on what you could have seen of HS games? Am i misunderstanding?

Yeah, I think Rivers is a much better player than Brogdon and Cooney. As much flak as Rivers gets for his struggles at Duke and in the NBA, he's carved out a decent little career in the NBA, and I'd be willing to wager if you stuck him on Virginia (or Syracuse) he'd be a better player than Brogdon or Cooney.

 

[jsshap]

Maybe true. But just trust me on this. That's all I'm going to say.

That's enough for me chief. Great read.

 

[sufandu]

He was a freshman. Freshmen are supposed to be sidekicks. I think he has the ability to create, just that he was apprehensive at times towards finishing after a good initial move. I saw a very nice jab-step from him as well as the ability to hit the step-back jumper. With a solid year under his belt and a full off-season going against the big boys, I fully expect him to come back in the fall and be much more assertive.

I agree he has skills and I expect him to be more assertive and effective next year. However, I did not see the skillset that would suggest we will be successful if he has to be THE guy. He looked to me like a two dribble and shoot or pass guy and I think it will take him longer than one off season to develop the handle needed of a guy you can give the ball to with the shot clock running down and just say "create something" which is what I expect of a number one option. Maybe I'm wrong and it would be great if I am, but I think he'll need more time to become that guy.

 

[sufandu]

I think JB likes a mix of program guys (lower level 4 year guys) mixed in with the one and done (or two and done) guys. It has been a good formula for him for a long time. We could be with out Roberson, Coleman, Battle, Lydon and Richardson after next year. Need some more guys that will stick around and develop like Howard and Moyer.

It would just be nice if some of the one (or two) and done guys we got were the Jahlil Okafor types instead of only the Chris McCullough types we seem to get.

 

[NECuse]

Paul Harris, Fab Melo & Chris McCullough were top-10 recruits on many, if not all, services.

Tyus Battle was considered by many a top-10 player after his sophomore year, but fell 20 spots in large part due to an injury that kept him off the floor for a year. Out of sight is out of mind to the recruiting services.

Dion Waiters was top-15 as were both Donte Greene and DaJaun Coleman.

Rakeem Christmas, Michael Carter Williams and Jonny Flynn were all top-20 recruits.

And Malachi was in the 20-30 range on most sites - earning McDonald's All-American status.

That's just off the top of my head.

Flynn was 23rd
Harris was 14th
CM was 24th
Waiters was 15th
Fab was 14th
MCW was 21st
Rak was 20th
Coleman was 15th
Donte was 17th

So, you're numbers are a bit off, though I get your point. We recruit well. But you've effectively supported my position. What do all of those recruits, with the exception of Melo, have in common? They are were all recruited in our sweet spot (NJ, NY, NEPSAC, Pbilly, B-More). I know we recruit well in these areas and we get (sometimes) great (more often) good players that allow us to compete with and beat the blue bloods. And as long as those areas keep pumping out great players, we'll be fine if we stick to our current strategy.

I'd just like it if the staff said, to h$ll where a kid lives, we're getting him. Geography shouldn't matter if there is a fantastic player that has interest in the program and has made it known that he'd like to be recruited (see Porter, Michael). Those are the kinds of players that I'd hope JB would target. Just hasn't seemed to happen for whatever reason.

And Melo was recruited 8 years ago. It's been awhile since we've extended our reach.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Yeah, I think Rivers is a much better player than Brogdon and Cooney. As much flak as Rivers gets for his struggles at Duke and in the NBA, he's carved out a decent little career in the NBA, and I'd be willing to wager if you stuck him on Virginia (or Syracuse) he'd be a better player than Brogdon or Cooney.

I thought Rivers was pretty good at Duke. My memory for such details sucks, though... : { But, that wasn't my point, really. You could easily argue that Brogdon was the best of the three, but no coach in america would have known that or chosen him over Rivers if they were 'selecting' out of high school.

Either way, i think knowing what we know now, i'd take 4 years of Brogdon over the one year of Rivers or 4 of Cooney. But, that's just in hindsight. So, yeah, you can get an amazing player in the bottom 50 or outside of the top 100 HS kids. But, that's, as they say with baseball prospects, "a lottery ticket." I wouldn't want to make my career as a coach relying on that level of player with any kind of consistency. Which, to me, makes the accomplishments of certain coaches all the more remarkable.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Flynn was 23rd
Harris was 14th
CM was 24th
Waiters was 15th
Fab was 14th
MCW was 21st
Rak was 20th
Coleman was 15th
Donte was 17th

So, you're numbers are a bit off, though I get your point. We recruit well. But you've effectively supported my position. What do all of those recruits, with the exception of Melo, have in common? They are were all recruited in our sweet spot (NJ, NY, NEPSAC, Pbilly, B-More). I know we recruit well in these areas and we get (sometimes) great (more often) good players that allow us to compete with and beat the blue bloods. And as long as those areas keep pumping out great players, we'll be fine if we stick to our current strategy.

I'd just like it if the staff said, to h$ll where a kid lives, we're getting him. Geography shouldn't matter if there is a fantastic player that has interest in the program and has made it known that he'd like to be recruited (see Porter, Michael). Those are the kinds of players that I'd hope JB would target. Just hasn't seemed to happen for whatever reason.

And Melo was recruited 8 years ago. It's been awhile since we've extended our reach.

Relative to this, could one of the 'recruitniks' chime in on just how many actual visits a head coach might make in the recruitment of a Top 20 player? The idea of the staff/JB 'missing opportunities' — are we talking about not wanting to make two or three plane trips, or 5-10 or more?

 

[OttoMets]

I thought Rivers was pretty good at Duke. My memory for such details sucks, though... : { But, that wasn't my point, really. You could easily argue that Brogdon was the best of the three, but no coach in america would have known that or chosen him over Rivers if they were 'selecting' out of high school.

Either way, i think knowing what we know now, i'd take 4 years of Brogdon over the one year of Rivers or 4 of Cooney. But, that's just in hindsight. So, yeah, you can get an amazing player in the bottom 50 or outside of the top 100 HS kids. But, that's, as they say with baseball prospects, "a lottery ticket." I wouldn't want to make my career as a coach relying on that level of player with any kind of consistency. Which, to me, makes the accomplishments of certain coaches all the more remarkable.

Yeah, I was talking about both the benefit of hindsight and the effect of a school's pedigree on the rankings. Even at the time, if "Duke," "Syracuse," and "Virginia" weren't attached to those kids' names, I bet the rankings wouldn't have shaken out this way. Rivers was one of those classic overrated Duke guys.

 

[Cusefan78]

Losing weaver really hurt recruiting. He wasn't here long but he brought us a national championship

 

[br801]

Relative to this, could one of the 'recruitniks' chime in on just how many actual visits a head coach might make in the recruitment of a Top 20 player? The idea of the staff/JB 'missing opportunities' — are we talking about not wanting to make two or three plane trips, or 5-10 or more?

I'm no recruiting expert, but I'd guess there is no set formula for what the successful recruitment of a top 20 or top 10 kid looks like. I'd venture to say we're talking about something that is more art than science.

 

[two3zone]

I'm no recruiting expert, but I'd guess there is no set formula for what the successful recruitment of a top 20 or top 10 kid look like. I'd venture to say we're talking about something that is more art than science.

I think they do a pretty good job with the top 10s, after that it seems a little more sporadic. Usually (based off my memory of the top 10s), a fairly large majority are in the league after a year or two.

 

[SWC75]

Coleman-Chukwu-Lydon-Roberson-Moyer-Richardson-Howard Battle would make an excellent rotation and doesn't leave much room for anyone else to get in there. We do need at least 10 guys for depth and so scholarship players can practice against scholarship players but the 9-10 guys aren't going to see much action. Thompson says he wants to play immediately. Any fifth year senior will want the same. We dom't want to tie up scholarships with players who aren't promising recruits. It will be interesting to see how those extra scholarships are used or if they use all of them this year.

As always my basic rule is: if JB wants a kid, I want him to get him.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

As always my basic rule is: if JB wants a kid, I want him to get him.

But, he 'wanted' Joseph, Buss, BJ, Obokoh, et al... Until he didn't...

 

[SWC75]

But, he 'wanted' Joseph, Buss, BJ, Obokoh, et al... Until he didn't...

Every coach has wash-outs. Do you want JB to not get who he wants so he is forced to go after somebody else?

Who are we to say "you should be recruiting this guy...not that guy?

 

[AlaskaSU]

Coleman-Chukwu-Lydon-Roberson-Moyer-Richardson-Howard Battle would make an excellent rotation and doesn't leave much room for anyone else to get in there. We do need at least 10 guys for depth and so scholarship players can practice against scholarship players but the 9-10 guys aren't going to see much action. Thompson says he wants to play immediately. Any fifth year senior will want the same. We dom't want to tie up scholarships with players who aren't promising recruits. It will be interesting to see how those extra scholarships are used or if they use all of them this year.

As always my basic rule is: if JB wants a kid, I want him to get him.

What separates us from the top echelon is the ability to get, with some regularity, top players that are willing to come without starting. Seems that the only teams able to do that consistently are Duke, Kentucky and Kansas. N Carolina just left that club.

 

[Briancuse]

But, he 'wanted' Joseph, Buss, BJ, Obokoh, et al... Until he didn't...

It happens, every program has misses in recruiting, or players who just don't fit in the program. Recruiting isn't an exact science.

 

[two3zone]

But, he 'wanted' Joseph, Buss, BJ, Obokoh, et al... Until he didn't...

3 of them were head scratchers to me and I stated as such before they started. Joseph is the one guy who didn't live up to expectations. BJ was just SOOOOOOO young and the other two I really didn't understand the point of bringing them in and was told "their program guys" which doesn't make sense to me. Two of them aren't even D1 players (chin and buss), I think we could have done better. I kinda get BJ but I don't think anybody expected him to do much until his Jr year and Joseph had no business playing as much as he did his first year so I can't blame him.

 

[pulaski74]

DC and Burgan back in the day, followed up by stud Winfred Walton [who never played here], Thues, and Devendorf.

One absolute superstar, two multi-year starters, one potential star who busted, and a guy who was marginal.

Am I leaving anybody out?

eric santifer?

 

[pulaski74]

the no 1, top 10, top 20, these fricken guys are making dollars off crap like this. Nobody knows who's going to pan out and who's not. You want to be like Kentucky? move. SU is what we have, nationally liked and hated. I just cannot understand this talk about not getting 5* recruits, hell g was a five star. SU staff knows what they are doing, know what I mean?

 

[tipphill]

The vibe I'm getting from Francis is that JB is mailing it in, especially since he won't be around to coach any of these guys. Sucks.

i'd be shocked if that is the case---jb never mailed anything in during his whole career. he loves su and syracuse too much to do that.

 

[cuseattle]

3 of them were head scratchers to me and I stated as such before they started. Joseph is the one guy who didn't live up to expectations. BJ was just SOOOOOOO young and the other two I really didn't understand the point of bringing them in and was told "their program guys" which doesn't make sense to me. Two of them aren't even D1 players (chin and buss), I think we could have done better. I kinda get BJ but I don't think anybody expected him to do much until his Jr year and Joseph had no business playing as much as he did his first year so I can't blame him.

I really hope BJ blows it up at LaSalle next year.