Really quick thoughts

[pearl31]

Is this years ACC the best non-Big East conference ever? Possibly. Louisville would have certainly been the 7th team in the sweet 16 had they not suspended themselves. Several Big East incarnations still beat this years ACC due to more elite teams at the top, but off the top of my head no other conference has ever had this kind of depth, talent, coaching. Definitely not the Pac-12, Big 12, or SEC. Maybe some Big 10 conference in the 80s? Can anybody think of one?

Why are all basketball television personalities so stupid? It shouldn't take more than a minute of research to learn that MTSU has nothing going for it except for three point shooting and Syracuse is the best in the country at guarding the three. This was about as easy a game to pick as you will ever get in the tournament, yet every "expert" before the game picked MTSU. Are they just too lazy to do that minute of research? What do they spend their days doing?

MTSU put up 91 against Michigan St. and 50 against us. If Syracuse wasn't coasting to the finish with a 20+ point lead they would have held MTSU to half the points they scored against Michigan St. or less. Upsets happen, but what happened to Michign St. shouldn't happen to good teams. Michigan St. really isn't that good. I'd argue that they had close to a 0% chance of making the final four even if they were given a 1 seed and everything broke their way. Yet something like 29 of the 30 ESPN "experts" had Michigan St. in the final four. Why are they so stupid?

For next year, or maybe even next week, when people complain about our zone - I'll bet anyone $1,000 that there are MULTIPLE posts on the Michigan St. forum right now calling Izzo an idiot for never playing zone. The truth is, when it comes to zone, man 2 man, press, etc. no style is better than any other style. They all have strengths and they all have weaknesses. Criticizing which D a team plays is like criticizing someone for choosing wrong in rock, paper, scissors. No matter which you pick there is something out there that can beat you and something out there you can beat. There is no magic bullet to be had. The key is learning how to communicate and recruit to what you want to do.

One of the best parts of watching college basketball is watching players develop and improve. Tyler Lydon had such a terrible first half that it was embarrassing. He could have reverted into his shell, which is something he has done in the past. Instead he came out aggressive. That is growth. Get excited for next year.

Roberson had 9 rebounds in under 30 minutes of game time. I still think the biggest predictor of whether Syracuse wins or loses is Roberson's rebound total. He looked incredibly focused and effective out there.

Roberson better be both focused and effective next week, because its going to get a lot harder for him. Gonzaga is no better than we are, actually they are worse, but just as MTSU was a perfect match up for us, we are a perfect match up for Gonzaga. Sabonis is better suited to exploit us than any player we have come up against all year, and they have Wiltjer too. If I was a betting man, I'd bet on Syracuse's run coming to an end against Gonzaga. But on a positive note, its not like Gonzaga is unbeatable, and if things go well for Syracuse and they come away with the upset win I like their chances against anyone in the elite 8, even Virginia.

Will this sweet 16 run pay dividends next year? I think so. Both Lydon and Richardson are going to be able to look back on positive performances, Howard seems to be getting better by the day, and Syracuse is going to have a lot more good press behind it now than it would have if we missed the tournament. As they say, perception is reality. I still firmly believe it helps you to be ranked high all year. Next year might be Boeheim's best chance at one last title. As fans we have to hope hard that everything breaks right. Selection Sunday and the last two games were the first thing to break right. Hopefully its a sign of things to come.

Making the sweet 16 in a year where we got historically heavy punishments from the NCAA is a hell of an accomplishment. We are very lucky to have the team we root for be so good.

I've said it before, but man you gotta post more

 

[manleyzoo]

I'm no Gonzaga expert, but my guess is Wiltjer sets up in the high post, with his size and his ability to shoot he could potentially give us a ton of trouble there. There is no doubt Sabonis will give us fits down low. I hope Wiltjer sets up outside the three point line, if he does I think that's a huge break for us! Assuming he's in the high post I dont think we have much of a choice other than giving up a few open 3's and hoping Gonzaga misses. If they can hit from 3, and beat us down low you then you just have to hand it to them.

When everything is said and done I think Gonzaga is going to be able to score against us. Our best hope lies in the fact that they are not a good defensive team (forget the stats, they play in a crap conference, they are not good defensively). If we can score 75 like we did today (or more) I think we win. If we are in the 60's I think we lose.

Have you seen Gonzaga this year? Being a left coaster I've seen them a lot. They pretty much never play a high and low post offense. Sabonis is a great player, very physical. He's not a prototype center at all. He can play pretty much anywhere he wants, he can put it on the floor, he can shoot the 10 - 15 footer, and he can post up. Wiltjer isn't a high post guy so unless they radically change their offense, which, of course, they could, he's not going to be in the middle of the zone looking to create. It's just not his game. (Watch, now they'll do exactly that! haha) He typically floats around the 3-pt line and shoots over shorter defenders. Can he shoot? Yes. But he gets a lot of his points on kick backs from offensive rebounds, not creating on his own, he's painfully slow-footed and not very athletic. (There's a reason he couldn't get any minutes at Kentucky) The chances of him being able to drive around any of our guys, except for Coleman are zero. The difference between this Zags team and others is, luckily for us, Karnowski is out. With him they're a top 10 team. Also, while McClelland and Perkins can go off at times, their guards aren't as good as in the past and they don't move the ball as well. And they're not nearly as explosive north to south.

They've seen plenty of zone but they're not used to playing teams with four shooters and teams as athletic as us, so, obviously to win, we'll have to hit shots and be very quick in the zone. In particular, we'll need something out of Coleman against Sabonis, who's probably the best center we've faced all year, actually by a long shot, and Lydon to occupy Wiltjer.

And, yes, Gonzaga and St. Mary's dominate their league but it is way more competitive top to bottom than you might think. It's not the wild, run and gun league you may associate with smaller west coast conferences.

 

[OttoMets]

...

Why are all basketball television personalities so stupid? ...

How exactly did Brian Anderson and/or his producers prepare for this game? Just like on Friday, he kept carping on a Syracuse player having two fouls in the first half and not being benched by Boeheim.

This is just ignorant. Lazy, too, I think: it would only take watching a couple Syracuse games (or sending a quick e-mail to someone like Bilas) to learn that Boeheim doesn't hold a kid out because he's got two fouls.

Seems kind of specific, but this is basic stuff involving a high-profile program with an old and consistent coach; not like we're talking about learning nuances about a low-major conference champion (which, by the way, he's supposed to do also).

 

[Newhouser]

best game all year jb coached perfectly. went after them inside and made shots or got fouled. i thought howard should have stayed in longer. good things were happening when he was in, and they appeared to have cohesion. just mho

I know it has been said a thousand times but we really do seem to get a better flow offensively when Howard is in the game. JB also seems to have a good pulse when we hit our first half stale point and inserts Frank.

 

[tipphill]

I know it has been said a thousand times but we really do seem to get a better flow offensively when Howard is in the game. JB also seems to have a good pulse when we hit our first half stale point and inserts Frank.

for some reason i feel that cooney plays better offensively coming off the bench

 

[Orangeblue2]

This nice little run is creating the "NC State Syndrome". We had a lot of flaws in the regular season that haven't magically disappeared, they just have not shown up in the match-ups we have had so far. And hopefully, Gonzaga's lack of impactful guards will continue the favorable match-ups. What is the NCST syndrome? A couple of Sweet 16 runs after meh regular seasons had convinced their fans that they were just as good as Duke and UNC, and led to overblown expectations for the next year's team.
Everything is gravy at this point. I'm enjoying this, and think we will beat Gonzaga.

 

[General20]

Have you seen Gonzaga this year? Being a left coaster I've seen them a lot. They pretty much never play a high and low post offense. Sabonis is a great player, very physical. He's not a prototype center at all. He can play pretty much anywhere he wants, he can put it on the floor, he can shoot the 10 - 15 footer, and he can post up. Wiltjer isn't a high post guy so unless they radically change their offense, which, of course, they could, he's not going to be in the middle of the zone looking to create. It's just not his game. (Watch, now they'll do exactly that! haha) He typically floats around the 3-pt line and shoots over shorter defenders. Can he shoot? Yes. But he gets a lot of his points on kick backs from offensive rebounds, not creating on his own, he's painfully slow-footed and not very athletic. (There's a reason he couldn't get any minutes at Kentucky) The chances of him being able to drive around any of our guys, except for Coleman are zero. The difference between this Zags team and others is, luckily for us, Karnowski is out. With him they're a top 10 team. Also, while McClelland and Perkins can go off at times, their guards aren't as good as in the past and they don't move the ball as well. And they're not nearly as explosive north to south.

They've seen plenty of zone but they're not used to playing teams with four shooters and teams as athletic as us, so, obviously to win, we'll have to hit shots and be very quick in the zone. In particular, we'll need something out of Coleman against Sabonis, who's probably the best center we've faced all year, actually by a long shot, and Lydon to occupy Wiltjer.

And, yes, Gonzaga and St. Mary's dominate their league but it is way more competitive top to bottom than you might think. It's not the wild, run and gun league you may associate with smaller west coast conferences.

I appreciate this break down. Its clear you know a lot more about Gonzaga than I do.

The one thing I would add is, it doesnt matter much that Wiltjer does not play in the high post against other teams. Just because he doesn't do it normally, does not mean he wont do it against us. Almost nobody plays in the high post unless its against us. Teams have to change what they do to attack our zone, its one of the reasons our zone is brilliant, the high post is a terrible place to run your offense from, and we force teams there.

I still think we will see Wiltjer in the high post a lot, but if you are right and he is incapable of playing there, then Syracuse's odds are better than I have been thinking.

 

[RF2044]

For next year, or maybe even next week, when people complain about our zone - I'll bet anyone $1,000 that there are MULTIPLE posts on the Michigan St. forum right now calling Izzo an idiot for never playing zone. The truth is, when it comes to zone, man 2 man, press, etc. no style is better than any other style. They all have strengths and they all have weaknesses. Criticizing which D a team plays is like criticizing someone for choosing wrong in rock, paper, scissors. No matter which you pick there is something out there that can beat you and something out there you can beat. There is no magic bullet to be had. The key is learning how to communicate and recruit to what you want to do.

This should be required reading. Those who perpetually complain about zone don't quite seem to grasp that no defense is impregnable, and that they generally are barking up the wrong tree. It's become a meme for some who don't understand the game all that well.

 

[SWC75]

I appreciate this break down. Its clear you know a lot more about Gonzaga than I do.

The one thing I would add is, it doesnt matter much that Wiltjer does not play in the high post against other teams. Just because he doesn't do it normally, does not mean he wont do it against us. Almost nobody plays in the high post unless its against us. Teams have to change what they do to attack our zone, its one of the reasons our zone is brilliant, the high post is a terrible place to run your offense from, and we force teams there.

I still think we will see Wiltjer in the high post a lot, but if you are right and he is incapable of playing there, then Syracuse's odds are better than I have been thinking.

Why is the high post a terrible place to run an offense from? Teams kill us from there. Mike Neer says you've got 360 degrees of options from there. Coach Wooden explains all the things you can do from there:


And that's against a man-for-man. And we've got the perfect player to do it: Tyler Lydon.

 

[manleyzoo]

Why is the high post a terrible place to run an offense from? Teams kill us from there. Mike Neer says you've got 360 degrees of options from there. Coach Wooden explains all the things you can do from there:


And that's against a man-for-man. And we've got the perfect player to do it: Tyler Lydon.

If I'm not mistaken the point wasn't about running a high post offense, it was about running a high and low post at the same time, something the Zags don't do. I've not seen Wiltjer play the high post all season. Of course, against our zone they may figure to play him in there but it would take away how much he likes to float around the perimeter for dagger threes. FYI Wiltjer had 13 and 7 in their two regular season L's against St Mary's and 17 in the tourney win when they put up 85 with 5 guys in double figures and got a whopping 4 points off the bench.

 

[LAOrange]

Few is a good coach. He'll try to emulate Pitt. The problem is that Artis knew the options and knew to stay in his spot. Wiltjer will want to float away after he makes his first pass. The other tendency I've read about is the way Sabonis gets his points. The article I read stated that he almost uses the first shot as an assist to himself. If Roberson is "switched on" and DC and Lydon play the way they did last game, that option is taken away. If he loses a couple of offensive boards, he may hesitate to make sure he's more accurate.

 

[A Clockwork Orange]

Why is the high post a terrible place to run an offense from? Teams kill us from there. Mike Neer says you've got 360 degrees of options from there. Coach Wooden explains all the things you can do from there:


And that's against a man-for-man. And we've got the perfect player to do it: Tyler Lydon.

I think the point General was making was that most teams don't play a high/low offense. So when they play us, they change their traditional offense because the high post is the supposed weak spot of the zone. Changing what they do plays into our hands. The zone at its best takes away what teams have done all year, and what they've done well.

You have to have the athletes to beat it sure, but you have to have a good basketball IQ, and be willing to be patient. You can't just drive and kick, you HAVE to beat it by passing well. A lot of teams can't do that for sustained periods.

 

[zhanjuzi]

I salute you once again, General, for another one of your greatly insightful posts.

And I whole-heartily agree that if Roberson continues his"beast mode" we will win. Other guys can have bad games but not him .. Cuse goes as he goes .. and I'm feeling mighty optimistic that he's not done yet.

 

[jordoo]

Its simple really. You aren't going to stop good offensive teams from scoring at any level. It just won't happen. The zone as has been mentioned over and over again (not just in this thread this year) forces teams and players out of their comfort ZONE (couldn't help myself). It makes them do things they aren't used to doing regularly in the heat of battle. Its very effective at the college level.

 

[OrangeFoo]

This should be required reading. Those who perpetually complain about zone don't quite seem to grasp that no defense is impregnable, and that they generally are barking up the wrong tree. It's become a meme for some who don't understand the game all that well.

Not to knock you RF as you are one of the most rational and knowledgeable posters on this board but I am one of those pope who perpetually complain about our zone. But I'm not complaining about the zone because it's a poor D, I actually think it's a great D and JB is a genius for recognizing where college hoops was heading and adopting it. The zone is responsible for our recent great 5 year mini-run starting in 2009 and culminating in 25-0. My biggest complaint about the zone is our pace of play has suffered big time which gives almost no room for error on offense.

I know you have asserted that our offense is actually pretty good but it's just missing good guard play... My assertion is that even when we have had good guard play we struggle to score points because our pace of play is so slow because of the zone. When the zone is active and pressing the issue and letting us get to some sort of tempo it's amazing for both our offense and defense but we very rarely play with that level of intensity in a game... more often than not we are content to let the other team pass the ball for 25 seconds and launch a last second shot. This strategy worked in the BE and it works against non-conference teams but it's not working in the ACC and agains the more talented teams we will see from the sweet 16 on where teams are more than happy to pass the ball for 20-25 seconds because they are confident they can manufacture a good shot against the zone in the last 10 seconds. So now we are playing with fire because we are playing against teams who are going to get decent offensive efficiency while limiting our offensive possessions and god forbid we don't get the rebound off a miss because thats another 25 seconds where we don't get the ball.

I will also say that when a team knows how to get good shots every time against the zone (Pitt) you need to have a plan B. The unwillingness to switch and try something new even for a possession or two has probably cost us a few games over the years.

 

[RF2044]

Not to knock you RF as you are one of the most rational and knowledgeable posters on this board but I am one of those pope who perpetually complain about our zone. But I'm not complaining about the zone because it's a poor D, I actually think it's a great D and JB is a genius for recognizing where college hoops was heading and adopting it. The zone is responsible for our recent great 5 year mini-run starting in 2009 and culminating in 25-0. My biggest complaint about the zone is our pace of play has suffered big time which gives almost no room for error on offense.

I know you have asserted that our offense is actually pretty good but it's just missing good guard play... My assertion is that even when we have had good guard play we struggle to score points because our pace of play is so slow because of the zone. When the zone is active and pressing the issue and letting us get to some sort of tempo it's amazing for both our offense and defense but we very rarely play with that level of intensity in a game... more often than not we are content to let the other team pass the ball for 25 seconds and launch a last second shot. This strategy worked in the BE and it works against non-conference teams but it's not working in the ACC and agains the more talented teams we will see from the sweet 16 on where teams are more than happy to pass the ball for 20-25 seconds because they are confident they can manufacture a good shot against the zone in the last 10 seconds. So now we are playing with fire because we are playing against teams who are going to get decent offensive efficiency while limiting our offensive possessions and god forbid we don't get the rebound off a miss because thats another 25 seconds where we don't get the ball.

I will also say that when a team knows how to get good shots every time against the zone (Pitt) you need to have a plan B. The unwillingness to switch and try something new even for a possession or two has probably cost us a few games over the years.

Your last paragraph sums up a different discussion. That's the difference.

There are a contingent of posters who blame everything on zone defense, to vent their frustrations.

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Have you seen Gonzaga this year? Being a left coaster I've seen them a lot. They pretty much never play a high and low post offense. Sabonis is a great player, very physical. He's not a prototype center at all. He can play pretty much anywhere he wants, he can put it on the floor, he can shoot the 10 - 15 footer, and he can post up. Wiltjer isn't a high post guy so unless they radically change their offense, which, of course, they could, he's not going to be in the middle of the zone looking to create. It's just not his game. (Watch, now they'll do exactly that! haha) He typically floats around the 3-pt line and shoots over shorter defenders. Can he shoot? Yes. But he gets a lot of his points on kick backs from offensive rebounds, not creating on his own, he's painfully slow-footed and not very athletic. (There's a reason he couldn't get any minutes at Kentucky) The chances of him being able to drive around any of our guys, except for Coleman are zero. The difference between this Zags team and others is, luckily for us, Karnowski is out. With him they're a top 10 team. Also, while McClelland and Perkins can go off at times, their guards aren't as good as in the past and they don't move the ball as well. And they're not nearly as explosive north to south.

They've seen plenty of zone but they're not used to playing teams with four shooters and teams as athletic as us, so, obviously to win, we'll have to hit shots and be very quick in the zone. In particular, we'll need something out of Coleman against Sabonis, who's probably the best center we've faced all year, actually by a long shot, and Lydon to occupy Wiltjer.

And, yes, Gonzaga and St. Mary's dominate their league but it is way more competitive top to bottom than you might think. It's not the wild, run and gun league you may associate with smaller west coast conferences.

Wiltjer is definitely not a high post guy. So, do they try to turn him into one or do they flash someone else?

 

[SWC75]

Not to knock you RF as you are one of the most rational and knowledgeable posters on this board but I am one of those pope who perpetually complain about our zone. But I'm not complaining about the zone because it's a poor D, I actually think it's a great D and JB is a genius for recognizing where college hoops was heading and adopting it. The zone is responsible for our recent great 5 year mini-run starting in 2009 and culminating in 25-0. My biggest complaint about the zone is our pace of play has suffered big time which gives almost no room for error on offense.

I know you have asserted that our offense is actually pretty good but it's just missing good guard play... My assertion is that even when we have had good guard play we struggle to score points because our pace of play is so slow because of the zone. When the zone is active and pressing the issue and letting us get to some sort of tempo it's amazing for both our offense and defense but we very rarely play with that level of intensity in a game... more often than not we are content to let the other team pass the ball for 25 seconds and launch a last second shot. This strategy worked in the BE and it works against non-conference teams but it's not working in the ACC and agains the more talented teams we will see from the sweet 16 on where teams are more than happy to pass the ball for 20-25 seconds because they are confident they can manufacture a good shot against the zone in the last 10 seconds. So now we are playing with fire because we are playing against teams who are going to get decent offensive efficiency while limiting our offensive possessions and god forbid we don't get the rebound off a miss because thats another 25 seconds where we don't get the ball.

I will also say that when a team knows how to get good shots every time against the zone (Pitt) you need to have a plan B. The unwillingness to switch and try something new even for a possession or two has probably cost us a few games over the years.

Nice to have you on board, your holiness. I didn't know you were an SU fan!

 

[two3zone]

This should be required reading. Those who perpetually complain about zone don't quite seem to grasp that no defense is impregnable, and that they generally are barking up the wrong tree. It's become a meme for some who don't understand the game all that well.

I don't really complain about the zone very often as I think it's unbelievable. I'm in the camp that believes there needs to be some sort of backup that we can throw out there for 5 minutes in a game if needed.

Just an example. We play the first half and it's ineffective. I'm ok with going to the zone in the second half 100%, where I would be making switches is when it's not working in the first half, then not working in the second half after adjustments within the zone, switch it up for a couple of minutes to throw the opponent off a little bit and hopefully cool off a hot team then which I have no problem going back to the zone.

I'm not saying it's the answer but it would be nice to have a little something in the cupboard in games where it's just not working.

 

[OrangeFoo]

Nice to have you on board, your holiness. I didn't know you were an SU fan!

Dang.. my identity has been revealed.

 

[721Comstock]

Wiltjer is definitely not a high post guy. So, do they try to turn him into one or do they flash someone else?

View attachment 58369

Wiltjer strikes me as a taller, more accurate James "Dirty South" Southerland.
Or a skinny Steve Novak. 3 pointers or layups, that's it.

I think we play Sabonis straight-up, and let him get his.
Always shade the zone towards Wiltjer, and force the other 3 guys to beat us.

 

[SWC75]

Wiltjer strikes me as a taller, more accurate James "Dirty South" Southerland.
Or a skinny Steve Novak. 3 pointers or layups, that's it.

I think we play Sabonis straight-up, and let him get his.
Always shade the zone towards Wiltjer, and force the other 3 guys to beat us.

How about a more experienced Lydon?

 

[General20]

Not to knock you RF as you are one of the most rational and knowledgeable posters on this board but I am one of those pope who perpetually complain about our zone. But I'm not complaining about the zone because it's a poor D, I actually think it's a great D and JB is a genius for recognizing where college hoops was heading and adopting it. The zone is responsible for our recent great 5 year mini-run starting in 2009 and culminating in 25-0. My biggest complaint about the zone is our pace of play has suffered big time which gives almost no room for error on offense.

I know you have asserted that our offense is actually pretty good but it's just missing good guard play... My assertion is that even when we have had good guard play we struggle to score points because our pace of play is so slow because of the zone. When the zone is active and pressing the issue and letting us get to some sort of tempo it's amazing for both our offense and defense but we very rarely play with that level of intensity in a game... more often than not we are content to let the other team pass the ball for 25 seconds and launch a last second shot. This strategy worked in the BE and it works against non-conference teams but it's not working in the ACC and agains the more talented teams we will see from the sweet 16 on where teams are more than happy to pass the ball for 20-25 seconds because they are confident they can manufacture a good shot against the zone in the last 10 seconds. So now we are playing with fire because we are playing against teams who are going to get decent offensive efficiency while limiting our offensive possessions and god forbid we don't get the rebound off a miss because thats another 25 seconds where we don't get the ball.

I will also say that when a team knows how to get good shots every time against the zone (Pitt) you need to have a plan B. The unwillingness to switch and try something new even for a possession or two has probably cost us a few games over the years.

I really think you have this wrong. Its only possible to dictate tempo when you have the ball. No matter what defense you play, you can't force the other team to shoot. Teams can run the shot clock down against man to man and press defenses just as easily as they can against the zone, and it happens regularly. Look at the last two SU games. Both Dayton and MTSU were pressing us and pressuring the ball because they were down big going down the stretch and we had zero problems running the shot clock down.

The only way to stop a team from running the shot clock down (other than giving them a quality shot which you never want to do) is to force a turnover, and guess which team gets the most steals in the ACC by a huge margin? That's right, Syracuse. They got 29 more (almost 1 per game) than Florida St. who is second in steals, 59 more than Louisville who presses, and 100 more than Pitt who plays tough man to man D.

You'll have a hard time finding a team that plays man to man that traps teams more often and to greater effect than Syracuse does in our zone.

I think the reason you see teams take more time to shoot against our zone is that they have a hard time finding good shots. This is a good thing.

 

[721Comstock]

How about a more experienced Lydon?

Lydon is a better rebounder (on a per/40 basis), MUCH better defender and shot-blocker**.

Wiltjer is a 3-point specialist, mostly. Hence the comps I used.
With more experience, clearly - but Lydon has more all-around skills.

** I just checked this - Lydon averages 1.6 bpg.
Wiltjer is 0.7, Sabonis 0.8.
Lydon single-handedly blocks more shots than BOTH of their big men, combined.

 

[RF2044]

Lydon is a better rebounder (on a per/40 basis), MUCH better defender and shot-blocker**.

Wiltjer is a 3-point specialist, mostly. Hence the comps I used.
With more experience, clearly - but Lydon has more all-around skills.

** I just checked this - Lydon averages 1.6 bpg.
Wiltjer is 0.7, Sabonis 0.8.
Lydon single-handedly blocks more shots than BOTH of their big men, combined.

You'd better watch out, or those investigative reporters over at the Gonzaga site will pull your data above and label it as the ignorant and disrespectful rantings of an obnoxious Syracuse fan.