Reason for rebounding woes

[RandygoCuse]

• Could a reason for our low rebounding numbers be due to all our steals? If we are creating turnovers, those are possesions where we don't get the chance to crash the boards.
• How about all the blocked shots? It takes a lot of skill to block it to a teammate, and it would be unfair for us to expect Melo to master this already.
• And while I have not checked the numbers yet, I'm guessing teams take more 3's against us due to the zone. This would create a lot of long rebounds that give the shooting team more chances to get them.

 

[Knicks411]

• Could a reason for our low rebounding numbers be due to all our steals? If we are creating turnovers, those are possesions where we don't get the chance to crash the boards.
• How about all the blocked shots? It takes a lot of skill to block it to a teammate, and it would be unfair for us to expect Melo to master this already.
• And while I have not checked the numbers yet, I'm guessing teams take more 3's against us due to the zone. This would create a lot of long rebounds that give the shooting team more chances to get them.

The first one is not an issue; our defensive rebounding % sucks.

Definitely there is something to the third one.

 

[KingOtis]

This team is missing the monster rebounder (or rebounders) that the other great SU teams had. We had Rick Jackson last year, and Jackson and Wes Johnson the year before. Anthony and Warrick in 2003. John Wallace in 1996. Coleman, Owens and Seikaly in the late '80s and early '90s.

Joseph, Fair and Melo are all averaging around five rebounds, but they're not the type of players who make sure they're coming down with the ball after it bounces off the rim. Part of it comes down to strength, part of it comes down to mindset.

At least it hasn't made a difference yet.

 

[Knicks411]

This team is missing the monster rebounder (or rebounders) that the other great SU teams had. We had Rick Jackson last year, and Jackson and Wes Johnson the year before. Anthony and Warrick in 2003. John Wallace in 1996. Coleman, Owens and Seikaly in the late '80s and early '90s.

Joseph, Fair and Melo are all averaging around five rebounds, but they're not the type of players who make sure they're coming down with the ball after it bounces off the rim. Part of it comes down to strength, part of it comes down to mindset.

At least it hasn't made a difference yet.

But just to keep in mind, we weren't any good at defensive rebounding in 2003 or last year either. Don't have the numbers for 96 or the late 80's.

We're extremely bad this year though.

 

[Marsh01]

I watched Temple last night. A team who really had a major height disadvantage against Duke out rebound them so it certainly can be done.

Rebounding is just attitude and awareness. Being able to anticipate a shot and to put yourself in the correct position and not being afraid to knock heads.

This IMO is the only real weakness we have and it needs to improve going forward. If it does then we elevate to an even higher level.

 

[KingOtis]

But just to keep in mind, we weren't any good at defensive rebounding in 2003 or last year either. Don't have the numbers for 96 or the late 80's.

We're extremely bad this year though.

I included last year because Jackson was a beast by himself. The combination of Jackson and Johnson the year before was very good. Perhaps our rebounding in 2003 was better than you remember. Anthony averaged 10 RPG and Warrick averaged 8.5 RPG. McForth combined for 7.5 RPB, which is pretty good for a zone center. Sure, we were outrebounded by Kansas in the title game, but they were a great offensive rebounding team to begin with and missed a ton of free throws and threes.

 

[KingOtis]

I watched Temple last night. A team who really had a major height disadvantage against Duke out rebound them so it certainly can be done.

Rebounding is just attitude and awareness. Being able to anticipate a shot and to put yourself in the correct position and not being afraid to knock heads.

That's why Marquette and Pittsburgh will give us fits on the boards regardless of the size advantage.

 

[Knicks411]

I included last year because Jackson was a beast by himself. The combination of Jackson and Johnson the year before was very good. Perhaps our rebounding in 2003 was better than you remember. Anthony averaged 10 RPG and Warrick averaged 8.5 RPG. McForth combined for 7.5 RPB, which is pretty good for a zone center. Sure, we were outrebounded by Kansas in the title game, but they were a great offensive rebounding team to begin with and missed a ton of free throws and threes.

Last year, we were 211th in the country in defensive rebounding%. In 2003, we were 274th in the country in defensive rebounding%. Both years, we were about 30th in offensive rebounding, which is pretty good, but I am more talking the defensive rebounding, which is bad every year.

So the fact that we were 274th and won the title tells you it isn't the end of the world, but our defensive rebounding is almost always bad, though we seem to be setting a new standard this year. (And the fact that it's so bad this year and we're awesome should also tell you it isn't the end of the world).

 

[Marsh01]

That's why Marquette and Pittsburgh will give us fits on the boards regardless of the size advantage.

The best rebounders have a knack for figuring out where the ball is going to go and a combination of tenacity and quickness in beating other players to that spot. We dont have the "quick" type of players on our frontcourt that are going to beat other guys to that spot. Melo, Kris are not quick enough IMO to beat a guy to the spot if indeed they are out of position. This is one reason why we have such a poor defensive rebounding % as indicated to some of the posts made.

I do however think we have very good rebounding guards. Very quick and they do anticipate well.

 

[RF2044]

• Could a reason for our low rebounding numbers be due to all our steals? If we are creating turnovers, those are possesions where we don't get the chance to crash the boards.
• How about all the blocked shots? It takes a lot of skill to block it to a teammate, and it would be unfair for us to expect Melo to master this already.
• And while I have not checked the numbers yet, I'm guessing teams take more 3's against us due to the zone. This would create a lot of long rebounds that give the shooting team more chances to get them.

Your second bullet definitely has merit--it's been evident all year. Fab in particular has become such a good shot blocker that he often goes for the block, taking him out of position in the middle where he otherwise takes up a lot of space. It would be interesting to see the numbers around when we yield offensive rebounds after going for a block.

 

[shermstheman]

Your second bullet definitely has merit--it's been evident all year. Fab in particular has become such a good shot blocker that he often goes for the block, taking him out of position in the middle where he otherwise takes up a lot of space. It would be interesting to see the numbers around when we yield offensive rebounds after going for a block.

Yes, and we've got forwards who can really get out on the perimeter in CJ, Kris, James and even Rak. The amount of shots that they block/alter makes up for fewer rebounds. Ricky was good at both but he's not as quick out to the perimeter as these guys. So we've got to expect this- guess we're all waiting for this to bite us in the tookus though.

 

[Orangezoo]

the impact of rebounding is all about posessions.. we have dominated posessions with creating turnovers and good "offensive rebounding" outside of marshall and to a lesser extent nc state we havent been really bad on the defensive boards despite the percentages. i would venture to say 30 percent of the off rebounds we give up are long rebounds or loose balls. i will take the poor % with the amount of fast break runouts we get. im presuming there is a positive net to this strategy.

 

[El Jefe Syr]

We lack that "pull the ball out of the air" rebounder (like Coleman, Jackson, Otis Hill...). Melo tends to
"volleyball" a lot of the rebounds that come into his vicinity instead of trying to secure it on first grab. I've
noticed that sometimes he bumps it away from teammates who are in decent position. His wingspan is so
long that he can cover the entire lower half of the lane.

Keita seems to have good rebounding fundamentals, but gets pushed around a bit. Christmas in my opinion is
the best of the big men, but is, at this point, too much of a liability in other areas (he's learning) to grant him
the opportunity to contribute it game in-game out.

 

[KingOtis]

Last year, we were 211th in the country in defensive rebounding%. In 2003, we were 274th in the country in defensive rebounding%. Both years, we were about 30th in offensive rebounding, which is pretty good, but I am more talking the defensive rebounding, which is bad every year.

So the fact that we were 274th and won the title tells you it isn't the end of the world, but our defensive rebounding is almost always bad, though we seem to be setting a new standard this year. (And the fact that it's so bad this year and we're awesome should also tell you it isn't the end of the world).

We're looking at this differently. You're looking at it from a team standpoint and comparing that with the rest of the country. I'm talking about one or two players, which is what matters in an individual game.

Going back to 2003, we won the rebounding battle in several big games, including Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Georgia Tech. We outrebounded Pitt when we beat them. It wasn't all because of offensive rebounding. Defensive rebounding is different when you play a 2-3 zone. If every team played zone, those national numbers would not look the same.

My point was that we don't have a dominant rebounder this year. You don't need to be a dominant rebounding team to have a dominant rebounder.

 

[KingOtis]

The best rebounders have a knack for figuring out where the ball is going to go and a combination of tenacity and quickness in beating other players to that spot. We dont have the "quick" type of players on our frontcourt that are going to beat other guys to that spot. Melo, Kris are not quick enough IMO to beat a guy to the spot if indeed they are out of position. This is one reason why we have such a poor defensive rebounding % as indicated to some of the posts made.

The zone is one of the main reasons why our forwards and centers tend to be out of position for defensive rebounds.

 

[Knicks411]

We're looking at this differently. You're looking at it from a team standpoint and comparing that with the rest of the country. I'm talking about one or two players, which is what matters in an individual game.

Going back to 2003, we won the rebounding battle in several big games, including Texas, Oklahoma, Missouri and Georgia Tech. We outrebounded Pitt when we beat them. It wasn't all because of offensive rebounding. Defensive rebounding is different when you play a 2-3 zone. If every team played zone, those national numbers would not look the same.

My point was that we don't have a dominant rebounder this year. You don't need to be a dominant rebounding team to have a dominant rebounder.

I guess, although you would think if you had a dominant defensive rebounnder we wouldn't consistently rank so poorly as a team. (Though you are right; we don't have any good defensive rebounders this year; Rick was way better than anyone we have this year, for instance).

I agree defensive rebounding is different out of the zone, which is kind of my point; we suck at it every year; it's not the players. We would be better off with a guy like Rick who could grab some more defensive boards, but I was just pointing out we generally aren't very good at it. THis year we are even worse.

 

[Madbiker]

SU always has thin wiry guys built for speed to fit the zone rather than burly muscle bound guys who carve out space and block out like brick walls. That creates other strengths but contributes to defensive rebounding problems.

 

[KingOtis]

We would be better off with a guy like Rick who could grab some more defensive boards, but I was just pointing out we generally aren't very good at it. THis year we are even worse.

Because we don't have a guy like Rick. That's been my point from the start.

 

[SoBristol]

Because we have 3 forwards who are soft, but make up for it by getting out on the wings, and having more skill on offense. We trade defensive rebounding for other stats (Fair's shooting and sneaky follow-ups) or things that don't show up in stats (3 point shots that never happen because the forwards closed out on the wings).

And, because Melo isn't a tough rebounder for a 7 ft center.

 

[arbitragegls]

How about fact that when rebounding we do not go after it with two hands...we are losing up to 10 boards a game because ball is deflected off a hand...

 

[AZOrange]

Our rebounding is fine when our guards rebound. Zone D requires your guards to rebound well. When they dont forget about it.

 

[OttoMets]

We lack that "pull the ball out of the air" rebounder (like Coleman, Jackson, Otis Hill...). Melo tends to "volleyball" a lot of the rebounds that come into his vicinity instead of trying to secure it on first grab.

I believe that's referred to as "Elvir Ovcina-ing" for rebounds.

It's a good point; none of our centers or forwards will regularly sky and grab a rebound at its apex (Fair's best at it). People like Jackson and Anthony would get a lot of rebounds with the position our guys are getting.

Fab in particular needs to play bigger and stronger - too many volleyballed rebound attempts, too many weak lay-ups and taps instead of dunks. (Also, if he can knock down a 17-footer during live play, how about at least a 2/3 success rate for the unguarded 15-footers during stoppages?)

 

[JOC44]

We're extending our forwards insanely far out on the wind to contest threes. It looks to me like JB has tweaked the zone to have the forwards extend farther out and then relying on his guards to drop down and get inside position (which our forwards are almost never in a position to get). That's something he can do with four tall guards, though it's still nort the same as having a forward there boxing out. I think the overall package works because we're contesting virtually all threes, though the piece of the package that is defensive rebounding suffers.

 

[GardenOrange]

The zone is one of the main reasons why our forwards and centers tend to be out of position for defensive rebounds.

Agreed. Each guy on SU does not have a "man" to block out. I don't think SU does a great job of blocking out. They mostly try to just out leap other guys for the board. The zone does not help in this regard.

 

[reedny]

I agree we are not a good rebounding team (so far). Some rebounds are lost because of other teams strategies of shooting threes, with long rebounds. But still, our frontline players seem either too inexperienced or too skinny to put up numbers like Melo, Hakim and Forth on the 03 team.

But comparisons to other (m2m) teams, and the 03 team, are pretty difficult:

1- Any numbers you look at for this year are going to be skewed, b/c ... a) we play zone; b) its early; and c) we're good enough that most of our games have been blowouts (and lots of younger players get PT);

2- We have unreal depth, so individual rebounding stat's are not going to tell the story because the total is divided by a greater number of players getting time (we don't have a player averaging over 30 minutes).

Even the 03 team had a only +2.6 rebounding edge and a 40 rpg team average, despite Melo and Hakim combining for 19 of those. That team shot 34% from 3 (more rebounds to get?).
http://www.suathletics.com/sports/2003/11/30/200203mbbstats.aspx

This year's team also has about a 2.0 rebounding margain, but is shooting 37%, and averaging 36 rpg (fewer rebounds to get?). http://www.suathletics.com/documents/2012/1/5/MBBStatsCombined.pdf