Recruiting and Coaching

[Crusty]

I have a different view of this in that I don't think it's as far-fetched as most do of winning an ACC championship. We are clearly in the better of the two divisions for FB, which means win the division and the odds are in our favor of winning the champ game. How on earth does that happen? Let's take next year's schedule. Obviously, we have to win out against Louisville(H), Wake(A), NCSU(H) and BC(A) - actually not that crazy of a scenario - and then both cross-over games (Pitt(A) and VaTech(H)) - also, not that crazy. That leaves Clemson(A) and FSU(H). Pull off an upset over one of those two and we're set up for a potential tie-breaker scenario against the other.

Mind you, I'm not saying we have a good chance next year, I'm just using that schedule as an example, but I don't think an ACC championship is an impossibility like a lot of posters on here do. Heck, Wake won it in 2006 and Duke was in the game two years ago, showing that traditional football doormats can do it.

Love your optimism.

 

[CU44SE]

When pretty much every kid that makes a difference on game day is either a sophomore or freshman, then yes I say that his recruiting is better then what we have had. Use your eyes and judgement for once, don't use ratings as an end all be all when its obvious.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

I hear a lot about how recruiting is trending up, Shafer needs time for his recruits to get older, etc. Three years of Shafer and recruiting seems pretty similar. Here are the recruiting rankings according to Rivals (I assume they are all about the same):

2013: 12/14 in the ACC
2014: 12/14
2015: 12/14
2016 11/14

Maybe the talent level has gone up (relative to Big East years) but talent is still bottom of the league. Shafer will be lucky to crack the top 10 of the ACC, even if he starts winning.

(1) Can Shafer ever recruit elite talent (like, top 5 in ACC) to make up for his coaching deficiencies?
(2) If he can't get the best players, is Shafer some transcendent football mind to make up for a mediocre roster? Is he even an above average coach?

So far, Shafer has taken low-level ACC talent and gotten low-level results. He is performing where he should be given the recruiting and recruiting is bad and will most likely continue to be bad.

I say go after a young, radical coach that is looking to push the boundaries and give him a chance to experiment. What is there to lose? 0.500 and a crappy bowl is the ceiling now.[/QUOTE]




Whose ceiling is this, yours? It's sure not mine. I doubt it's the players,staff or the administration's either.

 

[retro44]

While you eating popcorn I will be setting up for this

 

[Don]

The first poster is mostly correct the recruiting may be better but it's no where near good enough., look name one wr that is better than say Mike Williams as a playmaker heck name one better than Alec Lemon. Name one running back better than Mr Ohio? Or better than Jerome smith? No te we have matches what we had five years ago. Now on defense name any lineman better than either of the Jones es or even Bromley? Name any linebacker better than hogue or cam from last year. I won't even go into the offensive line or dB because it's not even close.

The only playmaker we have better than we have had in the last few years is Dungey and if they don't coach him up or he doesn't learn to get down he won't last three years. I think this team is deeper with good players than it was say five years ago but there is only one wow factor guy on this team.
Will this team get better with age, yes I'm sure it will we are getting to see our future but, the really good recruiting teams don't have to show there future and those young guys sitting now get a chance to mature.and play when they are ready so they will get better too.

 

[TheCusian]

The first poster is mostly correct the recruiting may be better but it's no where near good enough., look name one wr that is better than say Mike Williams as a playmaker heck name one better than Alec Lemon. Name one running back better than Mr Ohio? Or better than Jerome smith? No te we have matches what we had five years ago. Now on defense name any lineman better than either of the Jones es or even Bromley? Name any linebacker better than hogue or cam from last year. I won't even go into the offensive line or dB because it's not even close. The only playmaker we have better than we have had in the last few years is Dungey and if they don't coach him up or he doesn't learn to get down he won't last three years. I think this team is deeper with good players than it was say five years ago but there is only one wow factor guy on this team. Will this team get better with age, yes I'm sure it will we are getting to see our future but, the really good recruiting teams don't have to show there future and those young guys sitting now get a chance to mature.and play when they are ready so they will get better too.

Our best offensive skill players are freshman and sophomores. Comparing them to guys who played 3-4 years is not going to tell us anything.

I think Ishmeal has a higher upside than Lemon, but Lemon maxed his production with hard work over 4 seasons.

 

[javadoc]

I hear a lot about how recruiting is trending up, Shafer needs time for his recruits to get older, etc. Three years of Shafer and recruiting seems pretty similar. Here are the recruiting rankings according to Rivals (I assume they are all about the same):

2013: 12/14 in the ACC
2014: 12/14
2015: 12/14
2016 11/14

Maybe the talent level has gone up (relative to Big East years) but talent is still bottom of the league. Shafer will be lucky to crack the top 10 of the ACC, even if he starts winning.

(1) Can Shafer ever recruit elite talent (like, top 5 in ACC) to make up for his coaching deficiencies?
(2) If he can't get the best players, is Shafer some transcendent football mind to make up for a mediocre roster? Is he even an above average coach?

So far, Shafer has taken low-level ACC talent and gotten low-level results. He is performing where he should be given the recruiting and recruiting is bad and will most likely continue to be bad.

I say go after a young, radical coach that is looking to push the boundaries and give him a chance to experiment. What is there to lose? 0.500 and a crappy bowl is the ceiling now.

What are Virginia's numbers over that period? Wake Forest's?

 

[anomander]

Our best offensive skill players are freshman and sophomores. Comparing them to guys who played 3-4 years is not going to tell us anything.

I think Ishmeal has a higher upside than Lemon, but Lemon maxed his production with hard work over 4 seasons.

I agree Ish has higher upside then Lemon, but Alec's skills were maximized by the last staff. We all knew Lemon wasn't going to out athlete you, but he was a very technical, smart receiver, who the staff got every ounce of potential out of him. Can anyone really say what Ishmael's strengths are right now? I can't. It's unfortunate, but so far I think we have missed the boat with capitalizing on an exceptional talent. Everyone is quick to get on Marrone for either winning with Gerb's guys, or leaving the cupboard bare, but who here thinks it's a coincidence that guys like Sales, Lemon, Nassib, Provo, Wales, Rome, PTG, Pugh, all met and exceeded their potential? I don't? I also don't think it's a coincidence guys like Wales, Rome, PTG, Hickey, Trudo, Robinson all performed better earlier in their careers under the former staff.

As much as I want to believe, and want to get behind Shafer this is just another red flag that sticks in my head.

I keep going back to it, but there is no way the OL should be as poor as it has been the past 2 years with the experienced talent the group has. As good as Pugh, and Mackey were, 1 guy wasn't making or breaking this group. This unit was a strength in 2012, and 2013, but we have seen a sharp decline in performance, and it just doesn't make sense.

 

[TheCusian]

I agree Ish has higher upside then Lemon, but Alec's skills were maximized by the last staff. We all knew Lemon wasn't going to out athlete you, but he was a very technical, smart receiver, who the staff got every ounce of potential out of him. Can anyone really say what Ishmael's strengths are right now? I can't. It's unfortunate, but so far I think we have missed the boat with capitalizing on an exceptional talent. Everyone is quick to get on Marrone for either winning with Gerb's guys, or leaving the cupboard bare, but who here thinks it's a coincidence that guys like Sales, Lemon, Nassib, Provo, Wales, Rome, PTG, Pugh, all met and exceeded their potential? I don't? I also don't think it's a coincidence guys like Wales, Rome, PTG, Hickey, Trudo, Robinson all performed better earlier in their careers under the former staff. As much as I want to believe, and want to get behind Shafer this is just another red flag that sticks in my head. I keep going back to it, but there is no way the OL should be as poor as it has been the past 2 years with the experienced talent the group has. As good as Pugh, and Mackey were, 1 guy wasn't making or breaking this group. This unit was a strength in 2012, and 2013, but we have seen a sharp decline in performance, and it just doesn't make sense.

He's a sophomore. It took Alec all four years to get to that level and he did it year by year until he was pretty good.

You should read the article on Syracuse.com about the oline today... They think they've been much better this year than last.

Lester said a lot of the sacks are on Dungey for not going to his hot read. I don't know. I'm not a good judge of line play. They look better to me - and they have way, way less penalties. So that's something.

Also worth noting that there are D guys that maxed out too. Under Shafer and Daoust.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

He's a sophomore. It took Alec all four years to get to that level and he did it year by year until he was pretty good.

You should read the article on Syracuse.com about the oline today... They think they've been much better this year than last.

Lester said a lot of the sacks are on Dungey for not going to his hot read. I don't know. I'm not a good judge of line play. They look better to me - and they have way, way less penalties. So that's something.

Also worth noting that there are D guys that maxed out too. Under Shafer and Daoust.

We keep 5 guys in to block. When the D rushes 6 ... someone's going to get through.

Dungey has to realize that he's outnumbered and get rid of the ball faster. When he does, it goes for a long gain or even a TD.

When he's slow to react, it's a sack and a fumble.

Unless you want him taking off and running every time.

He will watch the films and he will learn. And there will be much celebrating.

 

[Don]

Our best offensive skill players are freshman and sophomores. Comparing them to guys who played 3-4 years is not going to tell us anything.

I think Ishmeal has a higher upside than Lemon, but Lemon maxed his production with hard work over 4 seasons.

Look I'm not one of those people comparing the current coach to Grob and since I think the last two years of MaroNE were not good recruiting years and the first year of Maroney he had to scrape a class from the ruins of Grob we have not had a solid 4 year stretch for full class recruiting since coach P, I think for this reasons shafer should be given another year to fill out his own roster to see what he can do. That being said I don't think our recruining is great so we have to coach up what we have, if we continue to recruit the type of players we do then we need better coaching to maximize it and frankly I haven't sen that. Our young guys will get better no doubt but so will everybody else's including the team coming up whose leading rusher is a freshman from NY.

 

[TheCusian]

Look I'm not one of those people comparing the current coach to Grob and since I think the last two years of MaroNE were not good recruiting years and the first year of Maroney he had to scrape a class from the ruins of Grob we have not had a solid 4 year stretch for full class recruiting since coach P, I think for this reasons shafer should be given another year to fill out his own roster to see what he can do. That being said I don't think our recruining is great so we have to coach up what we have, if we continue to recruit the type of players we do then we need better coaching to maximize it and frankly I haven't sen that. Our young guys will get better no doubt but so will everybody else's including the team coming up whose leading rusher is a freshman from NY.

This years offense is about average in the Marrone/Shafer era. And they are the youngest. They'll get better. Dungey just played his 3rd full game.

 

[billsin01]

I'm not saying you are. But this thread has moved in that direction. People have pulled out year by year recruiting rankings to say that our talent hasn't improved. I'm pointing to Dungey, for example, as an example of how flawed recruiting rankings are, in response to those people.

Do I need to get on my soapbox again here? When someone explains to me how a network of "writers" (recruiting sites use the term loosely) spread across the country with no standard set of evaluations accurately ranks 2000+ kids every year, despite a slew of variables and different positions, then I'll start worrying about recruiting rankings. Would you rather have a 5 star than a 2 star? Absolutely, but this nonsense about anyone actually having any clue about the relative value of a recruit is laughable.

To me, the issue the Cuse has had is having had enough success and continuity to bring in five good classes -- enough good classes that even talented kids redshirt. This stuff about early playing time is fool's gold. Get a kid a redshirt year if you can. If they sign 85 kids who actually show up on campus over four years of shafer's tenure (assuming he gets a fourth) -- then I'm sure we'll feel much more competitive than we have the past couple years.

 

[IthacaMatt]

When pretty much every kid that makes a difference on game day is either a sophomore or freshman, then yes I say that his recruiting is better then what we have had. Use your eyes and judgement for once, don't use ratings as an end all be all when its obvious.

I agree. It seems like the most talented players are the younger guys. We just don't have enough of them yet.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Look I'm not one of those people comparing the current coach to Grob and since I think the last two years of MaroNE were not good recruiting years and the first year of Maroney he had to scrape a class from the ruins of Grob we have not had a solid 4 year stretch for full class recruiting since coach P, I think for this reasons shafer should be given another year to fill out his own roster to see what he can do. That being said I don't think our recruining is great so we have to coach up what we have, if we continue to recruit the type of players we do then we need better coaching to maximize it and frankly I haven't sen that. Our young guys will get better no doubt but so will everybody else's including the team coming up whose leading rusher is a freshman from NY.

Look, objectively, we have fewer mental mistakes, fewer turnovers, fewer holding and delay of game penalties. Special teams are clearly improved. We just replaced a disastrous Offensive Coordinator, lost our starting QB for the second year in a row, but we are clearly trending upward. It's there to see. Yes, I'd like to see better O line play, and better secondary play, but in many aspects we have significantly improved.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

To me, the issue the Cuse has had is having had enough success and continuity to bring in five good classes -- enough good classes that even talented kids redshirt. This stuff about early playing time is fool's gold. Get a kid a redshirt year if you can. If they sign 85 kids who actually show up on campus over four years of shafer's tenure (assuming he gets a fourth) -- then I'm sure we'll feel much more competitive than we have the past couple years.

This is a legitimate take.

 

[Don]

Look, objectively, we have fewer mental mistakes, fewer turnovers, fewer holding and delay of game penalties. Special teams are clearly improved. We just replaced a disastrous Offensive Coordinator, lost our starting QB for the second year in a row, but we are clearly trending upward. It's there to see. Yes, I'd like to see better O line play, and better secondary play, but in many aspects we have significantly improved.

Shafer,s best coaching job this year and maybe since he has been here as the LSU game , if that was the Shafer that coached every game I would say give him five more years, that game he was aggressive , decisive and gave the team every chance to pull out a win, in the last two games it's back to the same old dull routine and just maddening things like the first half against sour florida after the off week and the team is flat, the first qurter last week and the last two minutes were just bad.

Give me the LSU coach Shafer and I'm all in , but I'm not ready for the south Florida first half Shafer and last week's Shafer

 

[Crusty]

Do I need to get on my soapbox again here? When someone explains to me how a network of "writers" (recruiting sites use the term loosely) spread across the country with no standard set of evaluations accurately ranks 2000+ kids every year, despite a slew of variables and different positions, then I'll start worrying about recruiting rankings. Would you rather have a 5 star than a 2 star? Absolutely, but this nonsense about anyone actually having any clue about the relative value of a recruit is laughable.

To me, the issue the Cuse has had is having had enough success and continuity to bring in five good classes -- enough good classes that even talented kids redshirt. This stuff about early playing time is fool's gold. Get a kid a redshirt year if you can. If they sign 85 kids who actually show up on campus over four years of shafer's tenure (assuming he gets a fourth) -- then I'm sure we'll feel much more competitive than we have the past couple years.

There have been enough statistical studies to demonstrate that ratings are in fact, a strong indicator of future performance. Like SAT scores, they aren't everything and they have biases, but they aren't nothing.

 

[dollarbill44]

Love your optimism.

I am optimistic, but if you look at that schedule, Louisville, BC, NCSU, VT and Pitt are all mediocre and Wake sucks. Clemson and Fla St are the only really good teams on there.

 

[Macky44]

I'm not sure how anyone can look at a kid like Dungey, for instance, and not think it's correct though. No one knew who Dungey was, yet he looks like he's got the potential to be one of the best QBs we've ever had, if he can stay healthy.

The football staff is like Boeheim. They go after talent that fits their needs. Who gives a crap about rankings once we start winning. The talent level is CLEAR on the field and getting better.

 

[billsin01]

There have been enough statistical studies to demonstrate that ratings are in fact, a strong indicator of future performance. Like SAT scores, they aren't everything and they have biases, but they aren't nothing.

I'm extremely skeptical of any study involving a science as in exact as predicting the future. But generally if be thrilled if SU was pulling in too 25 classes vs top 45 classes. That said I would still argue that two things are true:

1) the idea that this team will ever be landing top 25 classes fairly consistently is extremely unlikely. We didn't do that when we were a perennial top 25ish team under P.

2) putting four or five solid classes together and keeping them on campus as they develop is a far greater factor, IMO.