Recruiting higher rated kids.

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
While I agree that 'stars' literally don't matter because its a construct for fans and not college football coaches to evaluate talent, they DO matter in how they reflect and are a correlation to their offers which in turn correlate with their talent...
So to further confuse everyone...Stars really don't matter in the literal sense but matter in how they reflect overall talent. Statistics prove how higher HS talent grades reflect in higher talent levels. Its not absolute when comparing hundreds of 4-5 star athletes with thousands of 3 star athletes and that's what people want to argue about. They list a few players who had no stars who are now NFL All Pros while ignoring the overall statistics of hundreds of thousands of players over decades proving the correlative statistics.
Another OUTSTANDING post!!!! I will simplify it. 85% of the time the more talented team (loaded 4 or 5 star players) wins over the team with 1 and 2 star players. We see it play out every year in the nonconference specifically.
 

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
The star system is skewed. If kids don't go to the recruiting service camps, aren't promoted to programs by their coaches or don't get P5 offers they can be the most talented/gifted player but they won't have the stars. There are a lot of players that until they start receiving offers aren't going to show up in a recruiting services database if they don't go to their camps. Sometimes when the coaches offer prospects the only place I can find info on them is Hudl and their twitter account.
Why would the most talented/gifted players not first and foremost dominate in games then go to camps get P5 offers and get promoted by their coaches????? Again the star system isn't 100% accurate and the end all be all (look at Robert Washington) but it is a pretty good metric.
 

FloridaFan

2nd String
Joined
Nov 3, 2017
Messages
578
Like
835
If we are talking about 5 and most 4 stars then I agree. I think when you get to the 3 star area thats when I think stars don’t matter tbh. What’s the difference between a “85” 3 star and a “83” 3 star outside. If stars were the only thing that matters then we have no business competing against most of the ACC since their classes are all higher then ours mostly.
 

CuseLegacy

Twitter Wizard
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
63,841
Like
76,065
Why would the most talented/gifted players not first and foremost dominate in games then go to camps get P5 offers and get promoted by their coaches????? Again the star system isn't 100% accurate and the end all be all (look at Robert Washington) but it is a pretty good metric.
Remember Steven Clark? And not all kids live in areas where the recruiting services hold camps. No camps, no stars. And Robert Washington turned out to be a dud.
 

FloridaFan

2nd String
Joined
Nov 3, 2017
Messages
578
Like
835
Chandler Jones was a 2 star Composite and unranked on the all day site. Should we have just passed him by? I think not.
 

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
Remember Steven Clark? And not all kids live in areas where the recruiting services hold camps. No camps, no stars. And Robert Washington turned out to be a dud.
Robert Washington being a dud was my point lol. Again the stars system is not the end all be all
 

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
Chandler Jones was a 2 star Composite and unranked on the all day site. Should we have just passed him by? I think not.
Chandler Jones is a personal friend and my alumni brother and i am glad we recruited him and his brother. He dominated in high school in NY. Those are the kids i want. But i dont want to see a recruiting class with 20 2 star recruits with more 2 star recruits than 4 stars sprinkled in with majority 3 stars
 

FloridaFan

2nd String
Joined
Nov 3, 2017
Messages
578
Like
835
Chandler Jones is a personal friend and my alumni brother and i am glad we recruited him and his brother. He dominated in high school in NY. Those are the kids i want. But i dont want to see a recruiting class with 20 2 star recruits with more 2 star recruits than 4 stars sprinkled in with majority 3 stars
Idk what classes your looking at but I don’t think I’ve ever seen that many. The majority of our players have been 3 stars thoughout Dino’s time here. Grovesnor was completely unrated. He will be good. So was McKinley Williams. Let’s not act like we are not getting any good players and that we can’t even pull 90 percent 3 stars.
 

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
Th
Idk what classes your looking at but I don’t think I’ve ever seen that many. The majority of our players have been 3 stars thoughout Dino’s time here. Grovesnor was completely unrated. He will be good. So was McKinley Williams. Let’s not act like we are not getting any good players and that we can’t even pull 90 percent 3 stars.
I hope our 3 star recruits can perform in the ACC. Not one of Babers recruiting classes have been top 45 consensus EVER here at Syracuse. According to 247, our classes have been ACC ranked 11, 9,11, last three years. You might to look at how many teams are in the ACC to determine if that is "good" or not.
 

sufandu

All American
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
7,070
Like
6,845
Another OUTSTANDING post!!!! I will simplify it. 85% of the time the more talented team (loaded 4 or 5 star players) wins over the team with 1 and 2 star players. We see it play out every year in the nonconference specifically.
The question is when do the stars get assigned/adjusted, before or after the big time schools offer? If they come/change after the big time schools offer, as often happens, the services are meaningless in their evaluations. If the services have a kid rated highly and then the offers follow, we can say the evaluations of the services have merit.

If we have sustained success for a few years, you'll start seeing a few of our offered kids get bumps in evaluations after Dino offers. It doesn't mean Dino is suddenly a better talent evaluator, it means he is getting more recognition from the services.
 

Sudano

2nd String
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
942
Like
989
The star system is skewed. If kids don't go to the recruiting service camps, aren't promoted to programs by their coaches or don't get P5 offers they can be the most talented/gifted player but they won't have the stars. There are a lot of players that until they start receiving offers aren't going to show up in a recruiting services database if they don't go to their camps. Sometimes when the coaches offer prospects the only place I can find info on them is Hudl and their twitter account.
Agree with what you wrote, but that's very understandable and not wrong for the recruiting service camps to do this. They are a conduit between a hidden system of college football coach evaluation and the college football paying public. They try to convince you they are a true talent evaluation company but they really are just information conjugators taking information they do have and passing on in a different form to the public and acting if they are the originating source. They can't publicly tell you they aren't really good at talent evaluation because that's what they purport to be with all those stars. They can tell me every day that they evaluate talent all day long but I know its not true but I don't blame them for it because I know what they do provide is pretty valuable to a fan like me. Even as imperfect as they are they tell me about players name, location, height, weight offers, highlights, where they are visiting, where they may be leaning and how my school is involved with who. They throw in a 'star' rating but I really don't care about that because all I really want to know is the other stuff.
We want to blame the recruiting services for what they aren't when we already know it but we don't validate and congratulate them for what they are really good at and what we all like about what they do very well. They are terrific at group sourcing and consolidating football recruiting information.
 

Sudano

2nd String
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
942
Like
989
Remember Steven Clark? And not all kids live in areas where the recruiting services hold camps. No camps, no stars. And Robert Washington turned out to be a dud.
Steven Clark had more stars but more importantly had at least SU and Florida offers so that tells me more than 'stars'. Robert Washington was a great talent, anyone who watched his film could tell that. The issue with Robert Washington wasn't his talent (or number of stars) Its because of his home life was falling apart and he had no adult mentor to help him through the important decisions of life. If anyone read all those articles he was one confused kid. I was concerned for him. So yes very talented kids will not all succeed for many reasons beyond what their physical talents will take them.
We all kinda know that. Life is harder for some than others.
 

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
Steven Clark had more stars but more importantly had at least SU and Florida offers so that tells me more than 'stars'. Robert Washington was a great talent, anyone who watched his film could tell that. The issue with Robert Washington wasn't his talent (or number of stars) Its because of his home life was falling apart and he had no adult mentor to help him through the important decisions of life. If anyone read all those articles he was one confused kid. I was concerned for him. So yes very talented kids will not all succeed for many reasons beyond what their physical talents will take them.
We all kinda know that. Life is harder for some than others.
True!!!! But Robert Washington wasn't a superstar when he hit the field at UNC Charlotte.
 

alphaorange

Starter
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
1,275
Like
1,252
Th

I hope our 3 star recruits can perform in the ACC. Not one of Babers recruiting classes have been top 45 consensus EVER here at Syracuse. According to , our classes have been ACC ranked 11, 9,11, last three years. You might to look at how many teams are in the ACC to determine if that is "good" or not.
I couldn't give two hoots about the stars. We just went 10-3 with a low ranked team, star-wise, and could have gone 12-1 with a little luck and a bit more depth of the same level. There were a lot of teams with higher ranked recruits that would love to have had our season. as long as Dino does what he does, I don't care...just get players that do what he needs them to do.
 

CuseLegacy

Twitter Wizard
Joined
Aug 26, 2011
Messages
63,841
Like
76,065
Steven Clark had more stars but more importantly had at least SU and Florida offers so that tells me more than 'stars'. Robert Washington was a great talent, anyone who watched his film could tell that. The issue with Robert Washington wasn't his talent (or number of stars) Its because of his home life was falling apart and he had no adult mentor to help him through the important decisions of life. If anyone read all those articles he was one confused kid. I was concerned for him. So yes very talented kids will not all succeed for many reasons beyond what their physical talents will take them.
We all kinda know that. Life is harder for some than others.
From what I know, and have seen since, the problem was more with Robert than his father. The only one who caused his home life to fall apart was Robert.
 

General Joe

Scout Team
Joined
Oct 14, 2018
Messages
355
Like
235
From what I know, and have seen since, the problem was more with Robert than his father. The only one who caused his home life to fall apart was Robert.
But i always feel sorry for a kid who throws away great opportunities. Hope he matures and grows and can be a productive member of society. Its still really surprising to me that Moe Neal and Apri have already had better college playing careers than Superstar Robert.
 

RandomGuy

All Conference
Joined
Jun 19, 2017
Messages
2,450
Like
4,623
Recruit rankings are FAR from an exact science. On the recruits end, it's even less consistent. Some areas, coaches/recruits are fully aware of the process, and have many eyes on them. Other areas, they may have little, to no idea. Understanding the process can help with grading, not understanding can hurt.

If we look at our rank, we've been pretty consistent from 2010 -2019, in the 50-60 range. Yet, most noticed how much more athletic we've become, at the spring game. We won 10 games, and ranked #15 in the country. We recruited higher quality athletes, even if the rankings don't show it. That's why some of us point out the inconsistency in the ranking process. We can see it with our own eyes.
 

RandomGuy

All Conference
Joined
Jun 19, 2017
Messages
2,450
Like
4,623
Trill Williams. Was bumped to a 4 star, because his play made Sports Center. He was always that player.

Andre Cisco. Middle 3 star. Dino didn't turn him into an all American in a couple months. He was always that player.(Should have been a 4 star)

Jawhar Jordan. 3 star. Fastest man in the west. Almost never see a kid that can cut that quickly. Shoulda been a 4 star.

Taj Harris. Human joystick in HS. Grade suffered because he went to a small school, so... 3 star.

We had 2 players, with no new film, who were downgraded. Only thing that happened, is that they committed to Cuse.

Thats more than 1/4 of one class, that the services got wrong, and our coaches got right, IMO.
 

TheCusian

Living Legend
Joined
Sep 24, 2012
Messages
17,449
Like
21,320
Trill Williams. Was bumped to a 4 star, because his play made Sports Center. He was always that player.

Andre Cisco. Middle 3 star. Dino didn't turn him into an all American in a couple months. He was always that player.(Should have been a 4 star)

Jawhar Jordan. 3 star. Fastest man in the west. Almost never see a kid that can cut that quickly. Shoulda been a 4 star.

Taj Harris. Human joystick in HS. Grade suffered because he went to a small school, so... 3 star.

We had 2 players, with no new film, who were downgraded. Only thing that happened, is that they committed to Cuse.

Thats more than 1/4 of one class, that the services got wrong, and our coaches got right, IMO.
Don’t forget the Canadians. Black hole of recruiting info.
 

Sudano

2nd String
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
942
Like
989
Recruit rankings are FAR from an exact science. On the recruits end, it's even less consistent. Some areas, coaches/recruits are fully aware of the process, and have many eyes on them. Other areas, they may have little, to no idea. Understanding the process can help with grading, not understanding can hurt.

If we look at our rank, we've been pretty consistent from 2010 -2019, in the 50-60 range. Yet, most noticed how much more athletic we've become, at the spring game. We won 10 games, and ranked #15 in the country. We recruited higher quality athletes, even if the rankings don't show it. That's why some of us point out the inconsistency in the ranking process. We can see it with our own eyes.
A few years back I mentioned to my buddy that we finally are successfully recruiting better players, players that look like D1 athletes. Bigger, Faster, Stronger, Taller.
Irrelevant to how many stars they had they had better offers from other P5 teams.
The offers along with my own eyes proved to me we were a better program going forward. Didn't think we were 10 wins good but knew significant improvement from 4-8 was going to happen. Was hoping to just go to any bowl game. That was the goal for me last year. Glad I was wrong.
 

rackman18

All Conference
Joined
Feb 10, 2014
Messages
2,712
Like
1,560
Trill Williams. Was bumped to a 4 star, because his play made Sports Center. He was always that player.

Andre Cisco. Middle 3 star. Dino didn't turn him into an all American in a couple months. He was always that player.(Should have been a 4 star)

Jawhar Jordan. 3 star. Fastest man in the west. Almost never see a kid that can cut that quickly. Shoulda been a 4 star.

Taj Harris. Human joystick in HS. Grade suffered because he went to a small school, so... 3 star.

We had 2 players, with no new film, who were downgraded. Only thing that happened, is that they committed to Cuse.

Thats more than 1/4 of one class, that the services got wrong, and our coaches got right, IMO.
I will take our coaches over the services any day.
 

RandomGuy

All Conference
Joined
Jun 19, 2017
Messages
2,450
Like
4,623
Don’t forget the Canadians. Black hole of recruiting info.
Indeed. Fine players, but they may participate in less of the grading process. I'm not going to be surprised if they get Viellieux right, though. He has traction early. (Many Canadien's do not-regardless of ability).

The OP was about recruiting higher ranked kids- per the services. Yes. It would be nice, as many of them are worthy of the grade. There are PLENTY of other recruits deserving of a higher grade. We've snagged quite a few of them, and HAVE been recruiting better. The no brainier kids, may just take a little more sustained success.
 

Sudano

2nd String
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
942
Like
989
I will take our coaches over the services any day.
By giving someone a 3 star and another a 4 star, the services aren't saying one player sucks and the other player is great. You're blaming the services for something they aren't doing. They are a repository of information not a talent identification organization, no matter what they try to portray.
 

sufandu

All American
Joined
Aug 30, 2011
Messages
7,070
Like
6,845
By giving someone a 3 star and another a 4 star, the services aren't saying one player sucks and the other player is great. You're blaming the services for something they aren't doing. They are a repository of information not a talent identification organization, no matter what they try to portray.
That's exactly the point though. They claim to be a talent identification organization, and that's how they are primarily viewed by fans.

If they aren't a talent identification organization, then the stars they assign, along with the numerical grades, that indicate talent level, carry little meaning. Which has been the point of this whole discussion.
 

Sudano

2nd String
Joined
Aug 29, 2011
Messages
942
Like
989
That's exactly the point though. They claim to be a talent identification organization, and that's how they are primarily viewed by fans.

If they aren't a talent identification organization, then the stars they assign, along with the numerical grades, that indicate talent level, carry little meaning. Which has been the point of this whole discussion.
I just think its so obvious they aren't a good talent identification organization that no matter what they say we all shouldn't be so innocent. It's basically a straw-man's argument.
We blame the recruiting services for something we all know (or easily should know) they aren't and ignore what they really do really well. Stop looking at stars so literally, look at the info, offers, visits and videos and love them for what they do really well.
 

Top Bottom