Recruiting -- Put things in perspective | Syracusefan.com

Recruiting -- Put things in perspective

Derek Hines--I'd forgotten about him!

All in all, that was a pretty damn good class under the circumstances.
 
Take a look at this link (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/commitments/2009/syracuse-14)

This is our class of 2009. We had 3 guys go onto the NFL in that class. Those 3 guys were all 2 star recruits! Pugh, Lemon, and Shamarko. Stars don't mean anything. We have a monster class coming in.
I'd love to see analysts who watch the tapes without knowing names, high schools, or colleges recruiting them. Then compare their results with people who just rank the schools doing the recruiting without even looking at the players. I think the latter rankings are going to be much more accurate.

the recruiting people say of course rankings matter, alabama and FSU have great ranks and end up being great. well sure. i don't know d1ck about recruiting and guess who i'd put at the top of my recruiting rankings? the programs that win all the time
 
Take a look at this link (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/commitments/2009/syracuse-14)

This is our class of 2009. We had 3 guys go onto the NFL in that class. Those 3 guys were all 2 star recruits! Pugh, Lemon, and Shamarko. Stars don't mean anything. We have a monster class coming in.

That's a heck of an overstatement! Did you check the top recruiting classes that year to see how many made the NFL? Kids do slip through the cracks but the ones that the big boys want are more likely to make it than the 2-stars.
 
Marrone's first class - the one he gathered immediately after being hired - was remarkably strong.
 
supp said:
That's a heck of an overstatement! Did you check the top recruiting classes that year to see how many made the NFL? Kids do slip through the cracks but the ones that the big boys want are more likely to make it than the 2-stars.

It's all probability. Of course that's true. The more highly rated kids you sign the higher probability of pumping out NFL players. But that discounts 2-3 star kids who have talent, drive, etc - and their coaches who invest in them longer than the big boys would.

Shafer clearly believes that you can take high character kids at 3 star level and coach them into pros over time. That the probability could be increased with coaching and the players effort.

I'm also confident he'd want the super high end talent with character to come here - and that they are working towards that end.
 
Take a look at this link (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/commitments/2009/syracuse-14)

This is our class of 2009. We had 3 guys go onto the NFL in that class. Those 3 guys were all 2 star recruits! Pugh, Lemon, and Shamarko. Stars don't mean anything. We have a monster class coming in.
Well that seems like a pretty open and shut case.

According to stars, this is our best class in years. Stars don't mean anything. Yet you say we have a monster class coming in.

Me so confused.
 
Sure, 2-stars come in many different molds. Biggest example is EJ Carter, who started as a true frosh -- nothing on his profile gave away he was that good.
But the other three tell a different story. Lemon had 4.49 speed and great numbers in H.S. (better than any of our current recruits). Pugh had great size and 4.9 speed (again, impressive compared to any OL recruits since 2009). Sharmarko had good size for a safety and 4.4 speed (how many DBs have matched those metrics?)
So look at the stars, the metrics, and HS performance. Won't tell you who will improve the most in college, but in these three examples, it will tell you a lot.
 
mlbball99 said:
Take a look at this link (http://sports.yahoo.com/ncaa/football/recruiting/commitments/2009/syracuse-14) This is our class of 2009. We had 3 guys go onto the NFL in that class. Those 3 guys were all 2 star recruits! Pugh, Lemon, and Shamarko. Stars don't mean anything. We have a monster class coming in.

2 stars can become stars just like 4/5 stars can flop. Just like the NFL draft. Maybe NFL GM's and scouts are bad evaluators are bad? Tom Brady says hello.
 
What do stars account for? From what I've seen- Athletic ability, measurements, judgement of future skill set, on-field abilities.

Stars do not account for intelligence, work ethic, determination, commitment.

Shamarko may have been undersized, but 2 stars could not measure his drive to help his family or his passion for getting stronger. That helped make him a great player as much as natural athletic ability.
 
What do stars account for? From what I've seen- Athletic ability, measurements, judgement of future skill set, on-field abilities.

Stars do not account for intelligence, work ethic, determination, commitment.

Shamarko may have been undersized, but 2 stars could not measure his drive to help his family or his passion for getting stronger. That helped make him a great player as much as natural athletic ability.

I'd argue stars don't even account for those attributes in a very meaningful way. I mean, let's take a look at the top 7 factors that make ranking recruits such an insanely difficult, I'd even argue impossible process:

1. The sheer number of kids. Let's say there are 100 D1 schools (I know there are more but I'm not real strong with math, so I'm making it easy), then that's roughly 2000 kids/year getting DI schollies. The number considered for DI schollies probably is at least 50% greater than that, let's say ~3,000. Even for the BCS type scools, let's call it 50, then you're looking at 1000 kids and probably close to that many considered but not offered. How does any service truly evaluate that many kids across the nation each year and then slot them accordingly? You'd literally need a team of at least 50-75 scouts/writers ... which brings us to our next point.

2. The complete subjectivity of any ranking system. You see this in the NFL where each team gets basically the same money and the same access to talent and yet some teams continually win 10+ games while others -- like my loveable loser Bills -- struggle to get to 8. Obviously some people are better judges of talent than others. This is even more pronounced when you have a team of mostly minimally paid, young kids doing a job for which they've received minimal training. If I watch a film and then hand it to someone else on this board, chances are we'll 'grade' it much differently.

3. Attitude/work ethic/maturity/drive/determination. Whatever you want to call it, there are HUGE differences between kids who come in and work extremely hard, vs. kids who want to have a good time. Hard to know this without actually knowing the kid personally, which goes back to the sheer numbers of kids recruited.

4. Injuries/off-field issues. You can sign the next Randy Moss, but if he ends up being the next Randy Moss, he may still never play for your team.

5. Regional biases. Everyone knows the best players come from football states in the southeast and west coast and maybe pockets of the mid-west/PA. But you can find Morlon Greenwood on Long Island or Derrell Smith in Delaware or Duke Pettijohn in MA or Alec Lemon in Maryland or Will Allen in Syracuse ... point is that most kids in FLA are going to get more love than kids in upstate NY or Mass or wherever. That may make some sense in the way that you're going to get lots of good players from FLA each year, but in a micro view comparing one player from upstate to one player from FLA, it's pretty hard to tell assuming they have similar measureables.

6. Numbers. Everyone loves signing day b/c you potentially land all these 'difference makers', but arguably attrition rates are as big a factor as any in determining successful programs from struggling programs. Yes, I know talent is a huge factor, but teams that can consistently run close to that 85-man roster number are generally pretty competitive and teams that have a host of injuries/off-field/transfer issues find it difficult to compete. It sounds nuts, but in this class alone there are already, apparently, 4 academic issues, which means there's no guarantee those kids every set foot in upstate NY. Then you've got the inevitable injury issues that can ruin a career -- Jermaine Pierce, Flemming, etc. -- if you add in a couple disciplinary/grade issues and a couple guys that don't pan out, this class could look a lot different a year or two from now. It can also go the other way, obviously, and you get a good number of kids that pan out/stay eligible/avoid serious injury. Hard to know.

7. Coaching. Can't replace talent, obviously, but anyone want to take a guess at how many games we'd win with four groups like this one and our boy GRob at the helm?

Anyway, this is a long way of getting around to the simple point that you'd obviously rather sign a bunch of highly regarded kids than a bunch of lightly regarded kids, it's extremely difficult to really know on signing day just how good a class is, especially relative to your conference foes. My feeling is you've got to trust the staff's ability to identify and land players it thinks can succeed and then hope to God most of them show up and stay for 3, 4 or 5 years.
 
I'd argue stars don't even account for those attributes in a very meaningful way. I mean, let's take a look at the top 7 factors that make ranking recruits such an insanely difficult, I'd even argue impossible process:

1. The sheer number of kids. Let's say there are 100 D1 schools (I know there are more but I'm not real strong with math, so I'm making it easy), then that's roughly 2000 kids/year getting DI schollies. The number considered for DI schollies probably is at least 50% greater than that, let's say ~3,000. Even for the BCS type scools, let's call it 50, then you're looking at 1000 kids and probably close to that many considered but not offered. How does any service truly evaluate that many kids across the nation each year and then slot them accordingly? You'd literally need a team of at least 50-75 scouts/writers ... which brings us to our next point.

2. The complete subjectivity of any ranking system. You see this in the NFL where each team gets basically the same money and the same access to talent and yet some teams continually win 10+ games while others -- like my loveable loser Bills -- struggle to get to 8. Obviously some people are better judges of talent than others. This is even more pronounced when you have a team of mostly minimally paid, young kids doing a job for which they've received minimal training. If I watch a film and then hand it to someone else on this board, chances are we'll 'grade' it much differently.

3. Attitude/work ethic/maturity/drive/determination. Whatever you want to call it, there are HUGE differences between kids who come in and work extremely hard, vs. kids who want to have a good time. Hard to know this without actually knowing the kid personally, which goes back to the sheer numbers of kids recruited.

4. Injuries/off-field issues. You can sign the next Randy Moss, but if he ends up being the next Randy Moss, he may still never play for your team.

5. Regional biases. Everyone knows the best players come from football states in the southeast and west coast and maybe pockets of the mid-west/PA. But you can find Morlon Greenwood on Long Island or Derrell Smith in Delaware or Duke Pettijohn in MA or Alec Lemon in Maryland or Will Allen in Syracuse ... point is that most kids in FLA are going to get more love than kids in upstate NY or Mass or wherever. That may make some sense in the way that you're going to get lots of good players from FLA each year, but in a micro view comparing one player from upstate to one player from FLA, it's pretty hard to tell assuming they have similar measureables.

6. Numbers. Everyone loves signing day b/c you potentially land all these 'difference makers', but arguably attrition rates are as big a factor as any in determining successful programs from struggling programs. Yes, I know talent is a huge factor, but teams that can consistently run close to that 85-man roster number are generally pretty competitive and teams that have a host of injuries/off-field/transfer issues find it difficult to compete. It sounds nuts, but in this class alone there are already, apparently, 4 academic issues, which means there's no guarantee those kids every set foot in upstate NY. Then you've got the inevitable injury issues that can ruin a career -- Jermaine Pierce, Flemming, etc. -- if you add in a couple disciplinary/grade issues and a couple guys that don't pan out, this class could look a lot different a year or two from now. It can also go the other way, obviously, and you get a good number of kids that pan out/stay eligible/avoid serious injury. Hard to know.

7. Coaching. Can't replace talent, obviously, but anyone want to take a guess at how many games we'd win with four groups like this one and our boy GRob at the helm?

Anyway, this is a long way of getting around to the simple point that you'd obviously rather sign a bunch of highly regarded kids than a bunch of lightly regarded kids, it's extremely difficult to really know on signing day just how good a class is, especially relative to your conference foes. My feeling is you've got to trust the staff's ability to identify and land players it thinks can succeed and then hope to God most of them show up and stay for 3, 4 or 5 years.
is there any reason to think that the people we recruit are more driven than anyone elses?

I think the recruiting rankings are right for the wrong reasons as i've repeated in other threads but intangibles assumptions are a get out of measurement jail free card with their own problems.
 
is there any reason to think that the people we recruit are more driven than anyone elses?

I think the recruiting rankings are right for the wrong reasons as i've repeated in other threads but intangibles assumptions are a get out of measurement jail free card with their own problems.

I disagree on them being *right*, as my long, rambling post suggests. But no, there's absolutely no way for us to know if our kids are more driven. That would be impossible to account for. But there is no question that a kid's drive and effort is a big factor in his success or lackthereof. That would certainly be a factor in how you were rating kids in a 'war room' scenario, right? Coaches would have to try to take that into account I would think.
 
Millhouse said:
is there any reason to think that the people we recruit are more driven than anyone elses? I think the recruiting rankings are right for the wrong reasons as i've repeated in other threads but intangibles assumptions are a get out of measurement jail free card with their own problems.

I think you look at our Marrone/Shafer era kid's intangibles and then listen to Shafer talk about his kind of kids - you can trust that the unmeasurable are being measured.

He sits with their families, someone is talking to them everyday (Eric White). Most are captains on their teams.

I don't know about compared to other schools - but I'm glad intangibles are a part of the process for us.
 
Oakland said:
If stars don't mean anything why is FSU so much better than us?

And why do we strive to get more 4 and 5 star players? Even the coaches say that.
 
2 stars can become stars just like 4/5 stars can flop. Just like the NFL draft. Maybe NFL GM's and scouts are bad evaluators are bad? Tom Brady says hello.
We saw Brady in back to back seasons. Did you think he was good?
 
Virginia Tech is the only team in the BCS era to make a national championship without a top 15 recruiting class. Some 5 stars flop but they generally turn into top talent. That said, this is a great class and it's great to see a class that addresses all of our needs.
 
is there any reason to think that the people we recruit are more driven than anyone elses?

I think the recruiting rankings are right for the wrong reasons as i've repeated in other threads but intangibles assumptions are a get out of measurement jail free card with their own problems.
OK, I swear I'm not trying to make this about Marrone, but he's our most recent relevant example - there was all kinds of talk about what constituted the magical Marrone recruit: exceptional character, unfettered work ethic, leadership among leaders, etc. and they were portrayed as though shortcomings in talent were overcome by some superior quality that Marrone was able to identify that nobody else could, thus the star rankings of our recruits didn't matter. Our guys were better than other people's guys for reasons that weren't quantifiable.

It's ok to accept that we recruit as best we can, whatever that means. We're not pulling in Alabama's class. We don't need to pretend that our coaches or players have supernatural qualities or abilities.

I think that acknowledgement is different from being excited about this class. Rankings wise, these seem to be a more highly regarded caliber of player, especially at the skill positions. There does seem to be something quantifiably different that has been increasing under Marrone and continues to increase under Shafer.

Next year's class will be interesting - do we keep going up, or do we plateau?
 
Stop telling yourselves stars don't matter. They do. They just do.

A way, way higher percentage of 4 and 5 star recruits play in the NFL than 2 and 3 star recruits. Of course there are more three star and less players in the NFL, because there are so many more three star and less players to start with. It's just math.

10 of 1000 kids in group A turn out to be NFL caliber.
6 of 40 kids in group B turn out to be NFL caliber.

Are your really, really saying there isn't a difference if your class is made up mostly from group A, or mostly from group B?

You guys have a good class, enjoy it. Build on it.
 
Stop telling yourselves stars don't matter. They do. They just do.

A way, way higher percentage of 4 and 5 star recruits play in the NFL than 2 and 3 star recruits. Of course there are more three star and less players in the NFL, because there are so many more three star and less players to start with. It's just math.

10 of 1000 kids in group A turn out to be NFL caliber.
6 of 40 kids in group B turn out to be NFL caliber.

Are your really, really saying there isn't a difference if your class is made up mostly from group A, or mostly from group B?

You guys have a good class, enjoy it. Build on it.
Our fanbase is starting to figure it out, Lou. It's just taking some time.
 
And why do we strive to get more 4 and 5 star players? Even the coaches say that.

Everyone is trying to get more 4/5 star kids, which basically translates to trying to sign more elite athletes. I think there are two points that people tend to confuse when discussing the stars topic:

1. I think basically we all realize that your chances of signing a great player are better if he's got four or five stars next to his name. The failure of the services isn't so much in identifying the top talent, though I would suggest that it remains even in that narrow scope something of a crapshoot. Consider: SU had 9 players drafted in the past four drafts -- a fairly respectable number with many schools coming in below that or in a similar range -- and I know for a fact that none of the kids were four stars with the possible exception of Tiller. Only two were three stars (Carter and Hogue) and the rest were two stars, including three kids from upstate NY (indicating a regional bias) and each of the best pros (Pugh, Thomas, C. Jones, A. Jones and M. Williams). But, for the sake of this discussion, it's fair to say that signing four or five star kids is a good goal to have ... but that brings us to point no. 2 ...

2. We're talking more about comparing 3-stars to 3-stars or 2-stars, as those comprise the vast majority of almost every recruiting class. Honestly, people get so carried away with the 4/5-star kids they lose sight of the fact that most classes outside the top 15 include few players in that range. Yes, if we're comparing ourselves to UF or FSU or ND or Alabama or LSU, it's pretty safe to assume they are getting better recruits. But if you look at the classes -- at least according to Rovals or whomever -- not that many include more than a few 4-star kids. UNC signed 22 kids, one was a five-star and four were 4 stars. PedSt. signed 25, six were 4 stars. Oregon signed 20, 5 were 4 stars. Oklahoma State signed 28, four were four stars. Baylor signed 26, two were four stars.

But the point is that all of those schools were at least 20 spots ahead of us according to rovals, yet it's mostly based on their three stars. For me there is a ton of ambiguity when you get past that top 150 or so. That, to me, is where stars or 'ratings' are completely useless in most cases.
 
Stop telling yourselves stars don't matter. They do. They just do.

A way, way higher percentage of 4 and 5 star recruits play in the NFL than 2 and 3 star recruits. Of course there are more three star and less players in the NFL, because there are so many more three star and less players to start with. It's just math.

10 of 1000 kids in group A turn out to be NFL caliber.
6 of 40 kids in group B turn out to be NFL caliber.

Are your really, really saying there isn't a difference if your class is made up mostly from group A, or mostly from group B?

You guys have a good class, enjoy it. Build on it.

Lou, your school is football blue blood recruiting in florida. We are a basketball school recruiting in upstate new york. If we can sign a handful of 4 stars in a single class it would be remarkable. NOw maybe things change a bit if there is a facilities upgrade and we start winning at a little higher rate, but even then five four stars in a single class would equal the total number of four star kids from the past 5 or 6 six classes.

But that crazy math is the whole point: trying to compare recruiting classes -- which outside of the top 15 or so schools are largely comprised of 3/2 star kids -- is ludicrous and nonsensical. We're supposed to buy into the notion that our 3-star/5.7 rovals rating 41st ranked OLB is way better than someone else's 2-star/5.4 rovals rating 59th ranked OLB?
 
Personally, I think there is merit to both points of view. I think most coaches will tell you there are a certain number of can't miss prospects every season. I don't know what that number is, and I'm sure it's fluid, but for argument's sake say it is 150. With rare exceptions, there are 10 or 15 traditional powerhouses (factories if you prefer) who fight for these prospects and generally share them fairly evenly, although every once in a while a team or two will strike gold and get a big haul. I think it is much harder and a more inexact science to rate the remaining large pool, as all the factors noted by so many here come into play. I think Syracuse has emerged from "scrap land" to become a legitimate player for the services of this next-tier pool. I think this class is emphatic evidence of that. If SU coaches evaluate talent properly, a kid stays healthy and maintains his academic standing they have a chance to develop 2- and 3-star talent into 4-star talent and in rare exceptions (Dwight Freeney comes to mind) 5-star talent. But it usually takes time, which is why Shafer correctly pointed out that this class cannot truly be evaluated for another three years or so. I believe SU is now back to the point where it can start to realistically aim for a top-25 ranking, a good bowl destination and, when magic strikes, to knock off one of the above-noted powerhouses and catch lightning in a bottle. I think that is a good place to be. jmo
 

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