Red opens up about new Syracuse players:

[IthacaMatt]

Florida's bigs did not post up. They were P&R bigs. Flagg was not a post player. He initiated from the wing or elbow. Virginia, Villanova, and Kansas all won recent titles on the back of perimeter play.

I didn't name Flagg, you did. He was a combo forward.

Khaman Maluach was their center. He went 6-7 against Alabama in the Final Four, 6-8 against Arizona in the Regional Final, and 5-5 against Mount St. Mary's in the Sweet 16 in only 15 minutes.

He was the low post threat. They used him when necessary. Not every possession. Get it?

And they had a second 6-11, 250 big man named Patrick Ngongba who shot 72% from the floor. That's dunks, put-backs and low post offense.

I don't know why people keep dismissing this. You can see it on all the good teams.

Arinze wasn't our leading scorer in 2010. He only took 7 shot a game, but he averaged more than 10 points and was essential for us. He averaged double digit scoring for 3 straight years on only 7-8 shots a game.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Florida State's do. Miami, too. And UNC. And Thomas Sorber at Georgetown last year. And Viktor Lakin from Clemson. They both ate us alive inside and we lost.

Do you want to lose an extra 5 or 6 games a year from ignoring a necessary component of a complete team?

Yes, guards win titles, but guards have games they miss their shots, and then what do you do? You are saying we don't need Plan B. That's not how a coach should think, if he wants to keep his job.

We got eaten alive because the entire defense was Swiss cheese. Mainly in the backcourt and at the rim. Those guys didn’t need to beat us in the post.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I didn't name Flagg, you did. He was a combo forward.

Khaman Maluach was their center. He went 6-7 against Alabama in the Final Four, 6-8 against Arizona in the Regional Final, and 5-5 against Mount St. Mary's in the Sweet 16 in only 15 minutes.

He was the low post threat. They used him when necessary. Not every possession. Get it?

And they had a second 6-11, 250 big man named Patrick Ngongba who shot 72% from the floor. That's dunks, put-backs and low post offense.

I don't know why people keep dismissing this. You can see it on all the good teams.

Arinze wasn't our leading scorer in 2010. He only took 7 shot a game, but he averaged more than 10 points and was essential for us. He averaged double digit scoring for 3 straight years on only 7-8 shots a game.

Maluach and Ngonba didn’t have the ball thrown to them in the post. They were P&R or put back bigs.

 

[Niastri]

That last line really hit home for me. Eddie would not even try to protect the rim. No way Naheem or Petar either. Maybe you could say Davis but he was giving up a ton of height on Donnie.

McLeod was injured. A healthy Highlander is an elite rim protector. His junior year at Syracuse, he put up a top 10 block % season of all time (at least since they started keeping track in 2009.) My biggest regret from last season, aside from failing to recruit a point guard, is that we were sending Davis and Majstorovic out there to play center when Lampkin was resting instead of McLeod. He would have been a difference maker.

But I agree with your salient point; having a bunch of bouncy 6’9 guys to compete against in practice will be good for everybody, not just Freeman.

Freeman did alright last year anyway. Freshmen getting 14 and 8 with six double doubles in their first 14 games are pretty rare.

 

[IthacaMatt]

That's not what anyone's saying. The argument here is about a back to the basket big which are mostly dinosaurs these days.

Funny, but every good team has one, even if they only take 5-10 shots a game.

Syracuse finished only 17-15 when Jesse Edwards averaged 14 points and 10 rebounds on only 9 shots a game in his last season with us. We had Joe and Judah as our leading scorers. Where would that team have been without him?

The year before, we had a losing record with Jesse averaging 12 and 6 on only 7 shots a game. We had 4 shooters, but he was our only low post threat, aside from maybe Jimmy B against certain teams.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Maluach and Ngonba didn’t have the ball thrown to them in the post. They were P&R or put back bigs.

Not ever. You sure of that? Because that's your argument. That people "just don't do that anymore".

Do you even watch games? So many good teams use the low post. FFS, that's what we did in the second half of the season when we started playing well.

I mean, how many times did we throw it to Eddie on the low block last season? 10-15 times a game? Was I just imaging that?

When UConn won those back-to-back titles, are you telling me that those 2 big centers were not passed the ball on nearly every possession?

Didn't Purdue do exactly that with Zach Edey for 4 years? He was 92-18 as a starter and averaged 19 points and 10 rebounds for his career. He was high usage. They won 30 games a year.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We got eaten alive because the entire defense was Swiss cheese. Mainly in the backcourt and at the rim. Those guys didn’t need to beat us in the post.

And still you say we don't need a center?

 

[Niastri]

Just a friendly reminder. Until last season, I don't think Syracuse has outrebounded its opponents on the year in at least 10 years. We get beat up inside year after year with stringbean guys who can't defend the low post.

Our record has been pretty awful for the last 10 years, but sure, we don't need no low post offense or defense. Everybody is Steph Curry these days.

Again, the difference of what you’re saying isn’t that big… Nobody is saying we should have little guys going out there against other teams big guys. Nobody.

If we have guys who are good to elite rim defenders, rebounders and finishers around the basket, we can win even if they go the whole season without a single post up play.

Big men need to defend, rebound and finish. The most effective big men are more likely to have decent three point shooting among their scoring attributes than post play.

It’s nice, but certainly not essential. Even if you discount Freeman and Kyle as post players on next years team, I think our bunch of players with 9’ standing reaches and 30” plus vertical leaps can do the job.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Not ever. You sure of that? Because that's your argument. That people "just don't do that anymore".

Do you even watch games? So many good teams use the low post. FFS, that's what we did in the second half of the season when we started playing well.

I mean, how many times did we throw it to Eddie on the low block last season? 10-15 times a game? Was I just imaging that?

When UConn won those back-to-back titles, are you telling me that those 2 big centers were not passed the ball on nearly every possession?

Didn't Purdue do exactly that with Zach Edey for 4 years? He was 92-18 as a starter and averaged 19 points and 10 rebounds for his career. He was high usage. They won 30 games a year.

Yes I watch a lot of college basketball. Zach Edey is the exception. He was the best big in Cbb in the past 15 years. Clingan was a defensive beast. Most of his points were off putbacks and p&r as well. It’s almost like there’s multiple ways to win.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Again, the difference of what you’re saying isn’t that big… Nobody is saying we should have little guys going out there against other teams big guys. Nobody.

If we have guys who are good to elite rim defenders, rebounders and finishers around the basket, we can win even if they go the whole season without a single post up play.

Big men need to defend, rebound and finish. The most effective big men are more likely to have decent three point shooting among their scoring attributes than post play.

It’s nice, but certainly not essential. Even if you discount Freeman and Kyle as post players on next years team, I think our bunch of players with 7’ standing reaches and 30” plus vertical leaps can do the job.

We mostly agree. But not having a guy who can get a good shot from the low block is a missing piece on this roster, returning to the original point. Maybe Sadiq will be that guy. Maybe Kyle will be that guy. But somebody has to be able to get a shot up in the low post.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yes I watch a lot of college basketball. Zach Edey is the exception. He was the best big in Cbb in the past 15 years. Clingan was a defensive beast. Most of his points were off putbacks and p&r as well. It’s almost like there’s multiple ways to win.

And those 2 UConn teams that won championships - exceptions, too, right?

Except those 3 teams played for the title and WE DIDN'T MAKE THE TOURNAMENT.

The offense ran through all those players. UConn was applauded for their offense and back cuts off the feeds to the post. They were running almost a Pete Carill Princeton style offense. It runs through the post.

 

[Cusefan0307]

And those 2 UConn teams that won championships - exceptions, too, right?

Except those 3 teams played for the title and WE DIDN'T MAKE THE TOURNAMENT.

The offense ran through all those players. UConn was applauded for their offense and back cuts off the feeds to the post. They were running almost a Pete Carill Princeton style offense. It runs through the post.

We didn't make the tournament throwing the ball to Jesse Edwards for 2 friggin years. Give me a legit point guard first always.

UConn was also one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the country for 2 years.

 

[baggerbob]

Donnie Freeman didn’t qualify because of his injury, but his 31.3 defensive rebounding percentage last season would have placed him third in dreb% last season. He actually would have been top50 all time with that percentage. (They’ve been tracking it since 2009.)

And it wasn’t empty “beating up cupcakes” statistics either, Freeman had great rebounding games against Texas Tech, Florida State and Notre Dame before going out with his injury.

Kyle isn’t quite the rebounder, but his job at UCLA seemed to be to block shots more than rebounding. Still, his 13.5% at UCLA wasn’t terrible, and he’s a better offensive rebounder than defensive. We’re definitely trading down on rebounding with Lampkin being replaced by Kyle.

My biggest hope in sustaining decent rebounding (and interior defense in general) is that we’ve replaced guys like Davis, Majstorovic and Lucas Taylor with guys that are taller and bouncier in Souare, Betsey, Tiefing and White.

But it all comes back to Freeman. So much rides on Freeman being healthy and excellent. On offense, defense and rebounding.

We’ve had so many hyped players come through and disappoint the last decade, we’re due for one to work out, and I think it will be Freeman this year.

This is really the first time since Ennis left that I've felt we had a team of players capable of of being very good.
Now Red just needs to coach as if he's not scared.
You have at least 10 players who have the athletic ability to play at this level.
If someone is off or not producing let them sit for awhile. Don't be stuck doing one thing, make adjustments according to who you are playing and what is happening in each game.

 

[orangefog]

When is the last time we had players that could consistently feed it to a post up player anyway?

 

[pearl31]

You can see it on all the good teams

yeah just keep throwing out nonsense, already-proven-false statements like these, that's how to win an argument

 

[IthacaMatt]

Yes I watch a lot of college basketball. Zach Edey is the exception. He was the best big in Cbb in the past 15 years. Clingan was a defensive beast. Most of his points were off putbacks and p&r as well. It’s almost like there’s multiple ways to win.

How about Eddie? Or Jesse Edwards? Or Arinze?

 

[IthacaMatt]

yeah just keep throwing out nonsense, already-proven-false statements like these, that's how to win an argument

Three NCAA champions in a row before this year had a center as the focal point of the offense.

We have lost probably 5 games a year in the last 5-10 years because of (1) inability to defend the low post, and (2) inability to score in the low post if our jump shots stopped falling.

I suppose you probably also feel that college football teams don't really need running games anymore, because so many teams pass so much. Right?

 

[IthacaMatt]

yeah just keep throwing out nonsense, already-proven-false statements like these, that's how to win an argument

I've given a dozen examples in this thread. Have you given one to disprove my point? All you guys can say is, "Well, that's just an exception".

The last 3 national champions before this year had a center-based offense.

Sure, and Steph Curry is just an exception, too.

 

[IthacaMatt]

We didn't make the tournament throwing the ball to Jesse Edwards for 2 friggin years. Give me a legit point guard first always.

UConn was also one of the best 3 point shooting teams in the country for 2 years.

Yes, and if we didn't even have him as a low post threat, what was going to happen when Judah or Joe had one of their 5-23 nights? We'd have lost by 50, not just 20.

The reasons that teams shoot well from 3 is that their team can score at all 3 levels. If you can ONLY shoot the 3, teams can take that away. That was the essence of the great Boeheim 4-out-high zones. He outnumbered the shooters at the 3 point line.

If people take away the 3 point shot, and you don't have someone who can score down low, tell us, what do you do, as a coach? Because the defense will sag off you and dare you to drive into the packed in defense.

UConn was good from three because they ran their offense inside-out. Surely you've heard announcers say that 1,000 times before. That's what opens up the outside shot, people collapsing on the ball in the lane, and then kicking it out to the shooter.

 

[Orangezoo]

Yes, and if we didn't even have him as a low post threat, what was going to happen when Judah or Joe had one of their 5-23 nights? We'd have lost by 50, not just 20.

The reasons that teams shoot well from 3 is that their team can score at all 3 levels. If you can ONLY shoot the 3, teams can take that away. That was the essence of the great Boeheim 4-out-high zones. He outnumbered the shooters at the 3 point line.

If people take away the 3 point shot, and you don't have someone who can score down low, tell us, what do you do, as a coach? Because the defense will sag off you and dare you to drive into the packed in defense.

UConn was good from three because they ran their offense inside-out. Surely you've heard announcers say that 1,000 times before. That's what opens up the outside shot, people collapsing on the ball in the lane, and then kicking it out to the shooter.

Ok then name the player we should have that would save our season that’s clearly doomed because of the roster construction.

Also then who would you sacrifice of the other expensive guys at other positions so that your savior could overcome that weakness.

This will be a fun thread to come back to as people watch games across the country to call out how infrequent low post offense of yesteryear is utilized in a winning effort vs other strategies.

 

[IthacaMatt]

It’s almost like there’s multiple ways to win.

Of course I agree that there are multiple ways to win. Lots of teams are doing the inter-changeable parts approach, and have been doing it since probably Louisville under Denny Crum or that great Illinois team that knocked out Coleman & Owens in the Elite 8. But just like having a good running game in football, it's a necessary tool to have if you want to have a chance to be a great team, not a decent team.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Ok then name the player we should have that would save our season that’s clearly doomed because of the roster construction.

Also then who would you sacrifice of the other expensive guys at other positions so that your savior could overcome that weakness.

This will be a fun thread to come back to as people watch games across the country to call out how infrequent low post offense of yesteryear is utilized in a winning effort vs other strategies.

I'm not making that argument anywhere here, that we don't have the right guys. I'm saying we're missing a piece to be considered "complete". Not that some mythical player is going to "make us".

Just like last summer, I was saying we needed a stretch 4/5 Euro kind of player to fill out our big man rotation, and then we got Petar Majstorovic. I was very happy with the pickup, because he filled a slot, he was a missing piece.

We knew Eddie couldn't shoot the 3. Donnie as a freshman should have been used closer to the basket than he was, but wasn't.

Petar played in a professional B league in France, kind of about on par with Fennell's competition in Australia. He has some shifty moves along the baseline, he had a viable shot from three. He played big, if a bit slow. But he gave us fouls and defense and many useful minutes while he was here.

I'm just saying, we need somebody who can make a shot in the low post. This shouldn't be that controversial. It could be one guy or another. It might be Kyle. It might be Sadiq. I've already said that 5 times. SOMEBODY has to be able to do it.

Or it will just be a different version of shortcoming - not having a rim protector last year, but we did have a low post scorer to set up the rest of the offense, when everyone was finally healthy later in the year. You need to have BOTH.

I'm happy that we appear to have the defensive side this year, or at least enough bouncy guys to throw at that role. You have to coach both sides of the ball.

 

[Niastri]

We mostly agree. But not having a guy who can get a good shot from the low block is a missing piece on this roster, returning to the original point. Maybe Sadiq will be that guy. Maybe Kyle will be that guy. But somebody has to be able to get a shot up in the low post.

I agree, that is a talent we probably don’t have.

The conversation devolved into an argument about the necessity of a low post scorer, but it is definite we don’t have a proven low post guy to rely on.

 

[RedtheGOB]

McLeod was injured. A healthy Highlander is an elite rim protector. His junior year at Syracuse, he put up a top 10 block % season of all time (at least since they started keeping track in 2009.) My biggest regret from last season, aside from failing to recruit a point guard, is that we were sending Davis and Majstorovic out there to play center when Lampkin was resting instead of McLeod. He would have been a difference maker.

But I agree with your salient point; having a bunch of bouncy 6’9 guys to compete against in practice will be good for everybody, not just Freeman.

Freeman did alright last year anyway. Freshmen getting 14 and 8 with six double doubles in their first 14 games are pretty rare.

Naheem some games just looked like it took too long for his motor to get running. Then other games he looked legit. Just too easy for teams to exploit especially when the rest of the defense was a mess too,

 

[RedtheGOB]

I agree, that is a talent we probably don’t have.

The conversation devolved into an argument about the necessity of a low post scorer, but it is definite we don’t have a proven low post guy to rely on.

Big time devolve. Really though The difference between the tourney and no tourney this year is going to by the backcourt not the front court. If Nate George is as advertised we'll be on our way.