Requiem for the Big East

[SWC75]

Definitely not over the PA system. Still can't believe we blew a 17 point lead in that game.

That would have caused a riot.

It was 30-16 at halftime and 38-23 with 14:?05 remaining when the Hoya's finally got going.
http://poststandard.newspaperarchiv...rd/1980-02-13/page-17?tag=syracuse+georgetown

 

[KellySyracuse]

Side Note: Watching the Boeheim commercial with "The Fat Man" brought back some memories. Whatever happened to "The Fat Man" (real name: Steve Corlett?) Last I remember he was on the air in the early 90's and never heard from again. Does anyone know?

He was arrested at one point for soliciting a prostitute and if I recall was fired from his job. Remember when he and Mike Tirico used to do the sports segment every morning?

 

[Bill Orange]

Question about the "Manley is officially closed " moment.
Forever - I've heard (and believed) that JT said it over the arena PA via the mic at the scorer's table.
In the documentary, it was said that this happened at the press conference (away from public ears)
Which is true??

Press conference. I was there.

 

[jncuse]

I don't understand the people who are disappointed that more history was not shown. Especially those idiots from the Boneyard.


Why should they? It was totally irrelevant to the story. The documentary was never meant to be a historical discussion of the Big East. I'm not sure why some people don't understand this.

The captivating story was how the Big East rose and dominated in a short time, and there was no reason to focus on stuff outside of that period. 30 for 30's are never "The History of the NBA", "The History of the ACC". "The History of the Celtics" or in this case "The History of the Big East". They focus on specific shorter periods, and tend to deal with off the court factors or specific personalities that drove the story in that period.

In this case they set up the factors for the rise, showed historical events / personalities to validate the rise, but at the same time showed factors that would lead to the fail that were occuring in the period. The rise and fall were basically interrelated.

Showing good moments in the 90's and 2000's were totally outside of the scope of the documentary.

All they needed to show was a high level of some key stories after the mid-late 80's to validate the theories that had been presented within the documentary. Basically wrap up the story.

Excellent documentary.

 

[jncuse]

I only watched the documentary today. It was shown on a Canadian sports network late last night and I recorded it. I didn't really watch basketball before 1987. so I knew some of the details why the Big East grew, but it was a great historical perspective to see.

I often wonder how I became an Orange fan in 1987. In 1987, I lived in rural Canada -- no cable. With rabbit ears we got a CBS affiliate and an ABC affiliate. This documentary provided some clarity - it was the Big East media machine.

I do remember cheering for Syracuse in that 1987 final, sitting on the living room floor with my Dad (who knew even less about basketball) and being really disappointed when they lost. Why was I attached enough to be emotional about it? There had to be some reason why I was cheering for them, but for the life of me I don't remember why.

I wasn't a college basketball fan at the time of the 1987 final or until 1990 either. I do remember watching Syracuse and seeing Georgetown, St. John's and some reason Pitt fairly often between 1987 and 1990. I don't remember ever seeing any blue bloods during that time or even knowing who Duke, UNC, Kansas, Kentucky even were. I had no contextual understanding of the NCAA from 1987-1990. I certainly didn't know what the ACC or Big Ten was. The tourney wasn't an event I have any memories of during this time (except the Syracuse final 4 games).

I probably didn't even know what the "the Big East" stood for. I was just an 11-14 year old in hockey country who liked watching whatever sport I could see on TV. I wasn't making a choice to watch the Big East over the ACC or the NBA. I was just watching what I could.

It was the Big East media machine that got to me when I was just a kid that liked watching sports with limited access to programming. This had to be why I began to cheer for Syracuse.

 

[jncuse]

I did not read the entire thread, so I did not see if this was posted.

But West Virginia's 10 second appearance in the documentary was quite the slam. Wow.

 

[longtimefan]

I did not read the entire thread, so I did not see if this was posted.

But West Virginia's 10 second appearance in the documentary was quite the slam. Wow.

They were making the point that the league was moving away from its original, basketball-centric origins to try to remain relevant. WVa was (is) a football school and not located in an east coast city. Didn't fit the original model at all. But, in making a point and giving an example, the producers gave the Mountaineers the back of their hand. Just treated them unfairly.

I don't think they emphasized enough the untenability of a basketball league that contained 3 BCS-level football programs. All of the moves from 1990 forward--adding Miami, then VT, WVa, etc--were designed to keep SU, Pitt, BC on board. Especially SU, because, as noted by Carnesseca and the long piece in SI, SU was the keystone of the BE.

 

[Cheriehoop]

They were making the point that the league was moving away from its original, basketball-centric origins to try to remain relevant. WVa was (is) a football school and not located in an east coast city. Didn't fit the original model at all. But, in making a point and giving an example, the producers gave the Mountaineers the back of their hand. Just treated them unfairly.

I don't think they emphasized enough the untenability of a basketball league that contained 3 BCS-level football programs. All of the moves from 1990 forward--adding Miami, then VT, WVa, etc--were designed to keep SU, Pitt, BC on board. Especially SU, because, as noted by Carnesseca and the long piece in SI, SU was the keystone of the BE.

Nice post.Another aspect we may not think of, is that from the basketball onlys point of view , they added Pitt, Miami, VT, WVA, and Temple to placate SU and BC for their football interests while more than doubling all their travel costs and preventing the Big East from ever having a balanced basketball schedule again. No longer would members play every conference member home- away diluting a number of long-time rivalries. This was affecting their only source of revenue-basketball but they agreed to it to stay together. Despite that, it fell apart anyways when football members still weren't satisfied and left. The Big East really died then.

I think both sides tried to make this hybrid conference work as long as they could, but differing goals, interests threatened long-term success by staying together. Most of the original parties including SU tried to succeed and stay together in an ever changing, complex, athletic college business environment that no longer works based on relationships and trust- but revolves around maximizing $ to stay relevant. It was an inevitable reality and I doubt the carousel has stopped.

 

[emeraldde]

I thought the Villanova coach was a interesting guy. You don't hear much about that guy. Colorful character. All the coaches seemed cool.

Except John Thompson

 

[Stern]

I thought the Villanova coach was a interesting guy. You don't hear much about that guy. Colorful character. All the coaches seemed cool.

Because he was forced to resign at UNLV for breaking state ethic laws in regards to his salary for side deals he was cutting and lying to the state of Nevada. Rollie was/is sleazy and no "major school" or conference wants to be associated with him.

 

[Cowtown]

Living in the west when the BE was engendered, I had no insight into the role of Dave Gavitt and the parallel development of ESPN. My wife grew up in Montreal and had absolutely no basketball awareness BC (before cow). She also watched it and got a short course on the rivalry with Georgetown, but also learned about the roots of the passion for Orange fans. Especially mine upon seeing my palpable, if even visceral, reaction to some of the segments involving John Thompson. I still spit on the ground after saying that name, and now she knows why.

I had thought they might mention the fact that even UConn's three NC's couldn't save a conference that was essentially born of basketball, a true indication of how great is the importance of football in American sports culture. The slight of West Virginia was almost embarrassing, but it was the only real wart on the show. In hindsight I think they were trying to show how far off the original model the BE had moved, and that could easily have been done better.

 

[im4cuse]

Best line, when Pearl pointed out about the Hoyas thug ways: "They were coached that way." Indeed. Having lived in DC area for 35 years and saw countless more examples not depicted. They could dish out the slurs too. Anyone remember Alonzo Mourning mouthing the "Jew" slur to Nadev Henefeld at the foul line, captured on network TV? How about the other scholars like Victor Page, and the samurai swordsman Kenny Brunner? Georgetown students, not. They recruited that way, taught that way, and dared the media to call them out. JTII is now seen as a kind of senior statesman, but there's some revisionist history going on. Oh well, film made by a Gtown grad after all.

 

[HurleyForHeisman]

They were making the point that the league was moving away from its original, basketball-centric origins to try to remain relevant. WVa was (is) a football school and not located in an east coast city. Didn't fit the original model at all. But, in making a point and giving an example, the producers gave the Mountaineers the back of their hand. Just treated them unfairly.

I mentioned this earlier in the thread but it bears repeating. West Virginia had an eastern-based basketball tradition that was a perfect fit for the Big East. Syracuse played WVU on an annual basis for 20 years prior to the start of the Big East. Georgetown and WVU were in the same ECAC region prior to the formation of the Eastern 8 and the Big East and played each other in the 1975 post-season playoff to get the ECAC auto bid to the NCAA. The State of West Virginia, like its neighbor Kentucky, is crazy about basketball. Jerry West is the most reknowned athlete in the state's history. Finally, WVU was Big East member Pitt's biggest rival. It's absurd to suggest that adding WVU to the league diluted the brand.

 

[CuseTroop]

My wife just got back from a work trip, so I made her watch this with me again last night. As we were getting ready for bed she said "They left a few teams out huh?" and I said, "Yea, Uconn fans are made as hell" Her come back "ohhh I forgot all about Uconn being in the big east"

Hey Uconn... My wife forgot all about you.


5 minutes after that she said "Dont count your eggs before you lay them"... so she might just be going crazy, idk

 

[orangehipfan]

You'll need to finish reading the thread then for some excellent responses to why Georgetown, Thompson, Ewing, Graham etc do not equate to others such as the Cornell fracas or any other BE fracas. Not even close to one in the same.

I apologize, I did not know the discussion was limited to in game activities.

You'll need to finish reading the thread then for some excellent responses to why Georgetown, Thompson, Ewing, Graham etc do not equate to others such as the Cornell fracas or any other BE fracas. Not even close to one in the same.

Watch the video ( I apologize if it link does not work), pretty bad scene & DC came off the bench. Brower throwing some real punches. Cops trying to separate players. I guess we can agree to disagree but this was an ugly moment in SU hoops. A lot of negative attention following the game. Wasn't the only incident in the early Big East years, especially if we include some off court issues.

 

[Noexcuse]

I apologize, I did not know the discussion was limited to in game activities.


Watch the video ( I apologize if it link does not work), pretty bad scene & DC came off the bench. Brower throwing some real punches. Cops trying to separate players. I guess we can agree to disagree but this was an ugly moment in SU hoops. A lot of negative attention following the game. Wasn't the only incident in the early Big East years, especially if we include some off court issues.

Not condoning what happened and DC should definitely have not come off the bench, but I was there and the Cornell players were not choir boys by any stretch. They committed a lot of hard fouls in that game similar to the one where Seikaly was going up for the lay-up in the clip. Not sure how this relates to the game in game out behavior of the G'Town players during the 80's other than it was an incident that happened during 1 basketball game.

 

[LennX6]

Georgetown: The Oakland Raiders of College Basketball.

So are we the Rams?

Moreso the Kansas City Chiefs.

 

[orangehipfan]

Not condoning what happened and DC should definitely have not come off the bench, but I was there and the Cornell players were not choir boys by any stretch. They committed a lot of hard fouls in that game similar to the one where Seikaly was going up for the lay-up in the clip. Not sure how this relates to the game in game out behavior of the G'Town players during the 80's other than it was an incident that happened during 1 basketball game.

i was posting more in response to the post about it was nothing like G'town. That is BS, show me a G'town game with a worse situation that that game. I was courtside, it was nasty. Watch DC in final four game against Providence. Throwing haymakers all over the place with Cuse up 17 or 18. My point is RBBLEES makes it sound like we had a bunch of choir boys. Far from it. Read the details from Hartford after the BC meltdown in Big East tournament. We have had a lot of great guys but have had our share of "thugs", same as most schools. G'town while not a bunch of choir boys had some good kids also, same as any school. Big East hoops was tough, many schools included as they responded to G'town.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Best line, when Pearl pointed out about the Hoyas thug ways: "They were coached that way."

I thought the best line was Al McGuire with "That sweater looks like a pizza that was dropped in the street!"

 

[Noexcuse]

i was posting more in response to the post about it was nothing like G'town. That is BS, show me a G'town game with a worse situation that that game. I was courtside, it was nasty. Watch DC in final four game against Providence. Throwing haymakers all over the place with Cuse up 17 or 18. My point is RBBLEES makes it sound like we had a bunch of choir boys. Far from it. Read the details from Hartford after the BC meltdown in Big East tournament. We have had a lot of great guys but have had our share of "thugs", same as most schools. G'town while not a bunch of choir boys had some good kids also, same as any school. Big East hoops was tough, many schools included as they responded to G'town.

Sorry. Can't reason with someone who wants to rewrite history. That's why it's called HIS (your) story.

 

[Moontan]

I guess we can agree to disagree but this was an ugly moment in SU hoops.

The program's producer (Georgetown grad) either:

1. didn't think it reached Georgetown levels
2. cut things off following the '84-'85 season
3. or only considered BE games

 

[rrlbees]

i was posting more in response to the post about it was nothing like G'town. That is BS, show me a G'town game with a worse situation that that game. I was courtside, it was nasty. Watch DC in final four game against Providence. Throwing haymakers all over the place with Cuse up 17 or 18. My point is RBBLEES makes it sound like we had a bunch of choir boys. Far from it. Read the details from Hartford after the BC meltdown in Big East tournament. We have had a lot of great guys but have had our share of "thugs", same as most schools. G'town while not a bunch of choir boys had some good kids also, same as any school. Big East hoops was tough, many schools included as they responded to G'town.

Don't care how many times you say it, and I never said we were choirboys, but Georgetown promoted a culture of thuggery. Sorry, end of story. And I'm far from the only one saying it.