Requiem for the Big East

[omniorange]

Capitalism wasn't the downfall of the Big East. The fact it had no integrated football solution. It failed in meeting the needs of its members.

Of course capitalism caused the downfall of the Big East. Miami, SU, BC, Pitt, VT, WVU, etc. all went where the $$$ was. The football needs of the conference were being met as well as they could have been in an hybrid conference. It's the height of naivete to believe that had PSU joined in 1982 they wouldn't have left when the Big Ten came calling, or that Miami would have even consider the BE football conference had the SEC or ACC wanted them back in 1990.

In terms of on-the-field product a Big East conference of WVU, UL, Pitt, Cincy, RU, UConn, SU, USF, and TCU would have been great in terms of on-the-field play. It just never was going to make the $$$ the other power conferences were going to make. Which is why the exodus out the door when slots started to open up.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Sudano]

Of course capitalism caused the downfall of the Big East. Miami, SU, BC, Pitt, VT, WVU, etc. all went where the $$$ was. The football needs of the conference were being met as well as they could have been in an hybrid conference. It's the height of naivete to believe that had PSU joined in 1982 they wouldn't have left when the Big Ten came calling, or that Miami would have even consider the BE football conference had the SEC or ACC wanted them back in 1990.

In terms of on-the-field product a Big East conference of WVU, UL, Pitt, Cincy, RU, UConn, SU, USF, and TCU would have been great in terms of on-the-field play. It just never was going to make the $$$ the other power conferences were going to make. Which is why the exodus out the door when slots started to open up.

Cheers,
Neil

That's a very weak football conference and to think they all would have stayed more than a few years means SU plays in the Patriot League without a move. Thank god Capitalism killed the Big East, in that current form it was not worth saving. Just like Jim Boeheim said it wasn't now what it was then.

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

That's easy. Providence, St. Johns, Georgetown.

 

[omniorange]

That's a very weak football conference and to think they all would have stayed more than a few years means SU plays in the Patriot League without a move. Thank god Capitalism killed the Big East, in that current form it was not worth saving. Just like Jim Boeheim said it wasn't now what it was then.

No one is saying SU should have stayed. You tried to make the argument that capitalism didn't kill the Big East. Now that you have conceded this point this part of the thread can mercifully end.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Millhouse]

No one is saying SU should have stayed. You tried to make the argument that capitalism didn't kill the Big East. Now that you have conceded this point this part of the thread can mercifully end.

Cheers,
Neil

football fans want to see good football games too. if you want to call that capitalism and blame it, fine

 

[Sudano]

No one is saying SU should have stayed. You tried to make the argument that capitalism didn't kill the Big East. Now that you have conceded this point this part of the thread can mercifully end.

Cheers,
Neil

My point should have been not that capitalism killed the Big East but rather that Capitalism killing the Big East was a good and fair result and not a bad thing.

 

[sufandu]

The Big East was 'us'. I think the ACC will always be 'them'.

I agree. That's the sentiment I've tried to convey when discussing how any new ACC rivalries will never be what the old GTown and UConn rivalries were, especially GTown.

 

[SWC75]

yep I'm sure that's all they said just "you stink" to the black guys(s). The Tex bowl game was one of just a few back then with great fanfare with the highly ranked teams so it made sense the racial part was reported. Back wood WV on the other hand in the mid 50's it was likely just part a routine and regular part of the culture not reported on as it was the norm. When I refer to the movie that's all I'm referring to racial aspect. I remember with 100% clarity the guys of that era saying that the racial component and only the racial component occurred in years earlier than 1959 in their discussion of the movie. No more no less.

And was it limited to West Virginia?

In your original post you said: "for the sake of historical accuracy what occurred in the movie didn't occur the year they showed down there but in an earlier game there." What occurred in the movie was that Ben Schwartzwalder pulled black players before they could score touchdowns and sent white players in to do that to avoid a riot. I see no evidence that that occurred. Do you have any?

 

[TODDNTEXAS]

Hak, I think you are right in the main with the social statement you are trying to make. But in this instance, I'm not sure that you are.

Are you familiar with Reggie Williams famous post game interview? Not all of those players were legitimate student athletes. Thompson was a huge opponent of minimum qualification standards--with good reason.

Bees, again, not directed at you but in the context of this conversation.

It was a sham of a mockery of a farce. It was then and it still is to some degree today. Look at the UNC scandal. It doesn't matter if it is completely true. What is true and cannot be debated is that athletes are not held to the same entrance standards as any other student and it continues to be that way throughout their time in school.

It has nothing to do with racism really. What matters at the end of the day is what kind of education did you receive? It is called higher education for a reason. It takes a lot of work in your younger days to obtain a quality education. If you are not ready for college then you should not be there and that is why they have this thing called prep school.

I'm not even touching the "equal opportunity" side of this so hope my statements are not taken in that light. My parents were poorer than church mice and I am a white male. Guess how I paid for my education? Enlisting in the military.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

Speaking of capitalism, there was an interesting piece in the documentary where they were discussing the NIKE money with Boeheim and Massimino. They began to discuss numbers and Boeheim was very candid in stating that NIKE was paying him double what the University was early in the sneaker contract deal and also how JT was a driving force in getting the coaches paid in this type of deal.

The more interesting part to me was when they questioned Massimino about the same he began to go off into storytelling mode on how all of that shoe money came about (something along the line of Let me tell you how that sneaker deal happened with a wry smile), then hesitated, looked at the camera, waived it off, realized maybe he shouldn't tell the story and the subject died.

Did anyone else catch that? Anyone know where he was going with his comment? Would loved to have heard the rest of that story from an insider but it looks like it may be locked in the vault forever. Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[supp]

Capitalism kills all poor businesses. That's a good thing. Its called progress. Capitalism killed the horse and buggy, capitalism killed the rotary dialed phone, capitalism killed the log cabin. Despite the fact oxygen kills all humans its still a very good thing.

Capitalism in the US has also always involved collusion, cronyism, and political manipulation. The notion of the free market is and has always been a fallacy. Not too hard to see how this all worked out in the case of conference realignment.

 

[Toga]

My reaction (right or wrong) was that he didn't want to precipitate an IRS audit.

Speaking of capitalism, there was an interesting piece in the documentary where they were discussing the NIKE money with Boeheim and Massimino. They began to discuss numbers and Boeheim was very candid in stating that NIKE was paying him double what the University was early in the sneaker contract deal and also how JT was a driving force in getting the coaches paid in this type of deal.

The more interesting part to me was when they questioned Massimino about the same he began to go off into storytelling mode on how all of that shoe money came about (something along the line of Let me tell you how that sneaker deal happened with a wry smile), then hesitated, looked at the camera, waived it off, realized maybe he shouldn't tell the story and the subject died.

Did anyone else catch that? Anyone know where he was going with his comment? Would loved to have heard the rest of that story from an insider but it looks like it may be locked in the vault forever. Thanks in advance for any info.

 

[Cuseregular]

And was it limited to West Virginia?

In your original post you said: "for the sake of historical accuracy what occurred in the movie didn't occur the year they showed down there but in an earlier game there." What occurred in the movie was that Ben Schwartzwalder pulled black players before they could score touchdowns and sent white players in to do that to avoid a riot. I see no evidence that that occurred. Do you have any?

no, let me clarify. Racial comments/slurs is the racial component referred to, not Bens moves or anything else. As for anywhere else it may have occurred, have no clue but wouldn't be surprised given the tenor of the times.

 

[Noexcuse]

Actually, the basketball side did not continue to thrive. After getting in 7 of 9 teams in 1991, the league slid throughout the rest of the decade. True, UConn became a power but at various points in the decade, Syracuse (on probation), Georgetown, St. John's and Nova while decent now and then, were not great.

From 1982 thru 1989 the Big East had 2 NCs, 8 Final Four teams, and 15 Elite 8 appearances.

From 1992 thru 1999 the Big East had 1 NC, 2 Final Four teams, and 8 Elite 8 appearances.

I do agree that the comment about WVU was out of line and truly had no place in the documentary. It was out of place considering the video's emphasis on combating one stereotype but they decide to insert another.

Cheers,
Neil

I agree about the WVU thing, but, I think it was referenced in regards to Raf's comments and the general "they don't really fit" the original intent of what the Conference was founded on (gritty, urban, inner city connections).

 

[Sudano]

Capitalism in the US has also always involved collusion, cronyism, and political manipulation. The notion of the free market is and has always been a fallacy. Not too hard to see how this all worked out in the case of conference realignment.

Is that your take on the Big East?
One person's collusion, cronyism, and political manipulation is another person's purposeful negotiation, stategic partnership development, and skillful influence.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

He most definitely was not the greatest shooter. He attacked the rim like a lion running down a gazelle however and was a fantastic finisher.

And he had a pure sense of joy around him, all the time. I used to see him 3-4 nights a week at Bird Library holding court. He was always smiling and laughing. He loved his time at SU and truly bleeds orange. While I consider Sherman our all time best point guard (Dave Bing was before my time so I have no frame of reference there), Pearl was and is the most exciting player ever to play for the Orange.

 

[BuffOrange]

I do agree that the comment about WVU was out of line and truly had no place in the documentary. It was out of place considering the video's emphasis on combating one stereotype but they decide to insert another.

+1. Particularly as their rivalry w/ Pitt is called the backyard brawl. It's not exactly Milwaukee.

I agree about the WVU thing, but, I think it was referenced in regards to Raf's comments and the general "they don't really fit" the original intent of what the Conference was founded on (gritty, urban, inner city connections).

True but how urban is State College who we all wanted?

 

[Briancuse]

Su did what was best for the sport that grosses the highest revenue, I could care less what the higher ups at gtown or providence think.

 

[OrangeDW]

Actually, the basketball side did not continue to thrive. After getting in 7 of 9 teams in 1991, the league slid throughout the rest of the decade. True, UConn became a power but at various points in the decade, Syracuse (on probation), Georgetown, St. John's and Nova while decent now and then, were not great.

From 1982 thru 1989 the Big East had 2 NCs, 8 Final Four teams, and 15 Elite 8 appearances.

From 1992 thru 1999 the Big East had 1 NC, 2 Final Four teams, and 8 Elite 8 appearances.

I do agree that the comment about WVU was out of line and truly had no place in the documentary. It was out of place considering the video's emphasis on combating one stereotype but they decide to insert another.

Cheers,
Neil

UConn didn't carry their weight in tournament in the 90's the way GTown did in the 80's.. They had some really strong teams, especially in like 1994, 95, 96...they were a big time Tournament underachiever back then. With their regular season success and the talent they had back then, they should've made a couple more final fours.

 

[LIVLEVYA]

Two points:

1. Crouthamel's absence is, in a way, shocking. Getting SU to come along was one of the keys to launching the league. Gavitt used his personal pull with Jake (they were frat bros at Dartmouth) to lure the Orange. Jake had shown that he was not enamored with joining a league when he turned down an invite to the Eastern 8 (PSU, Ruttie, maybe Pitt, etc.) a year or so before. I wonder if Jake is not well, or if his generally introverted personality just won out. I think someone should ask the producers about the omission.

2. I'm going to be a total contrarian on the "bringing Penn State into the league in the mid-80's would have insured the BE's long-term viability" screed. PSU is a football school now, and they may have been even more so 20-25 years ago. When the B1G came calling, they would have left in a heartbeat.

My first post. In fact, I went looking for various BE-member message boards after watching requiem last night to gauge reaction. Like you, I don't believe PSU joining the BE would have ensured the stability of the BigEast. Right or wrong, wise or foolish, the vision of the BigEast was basketball early on and its members ensured that focus remained. And a good thing too. The BigEast would have never reached the heights it had in BB if it had permitted a strong football school and commissioner to drift the focus toward football. What was it that was said last night??? That after its first 8 years in existence, 6 of the original members had made the NCAA Final Four? That's incredible.

What is somewhat lamentable is that an eastern all sports conference couldn't be mustered to keep the former eastern independents playing together. I think it could have been a strong league and enabled Pitt to maintain a competitive football program. With PSU and Pitt solid, VT close behind in consistency, it would have enabled BC/SU/WVU and possibly even Rutgers to rise up. Just look what happened to the BugTen after adding PSU to the OSU/Michigan mix. In the 20 seasons before PSU joined the BigTen, the only schools to win at least a share of the football conference championship besides OSU and Michigan were Michigan State, Iowa, and Illinois...or half the conference. In the 20 years since PSU joined, the only schools NOT to have at least shared a conference football title are Indiana, Nebraska, and Minnesota...or 1/4 of the membership. PSU added a strong competitor and gave the conference a wake up call.

Had PSU and the eastern teams created an eastern all sports conference, it would have prevented the expansion of the BigEast and its emergence as a great BB conference. And had PSU joined the BigEast, I don't believe its basketball program would have improved much as it wasn't connected to the urban talent of Philadelphia, New York, Boston, or DC. And it's football presence would have merely accelerated the split of interests between the all-sports schools and the basketball onlies. The Big East would have still split...and likely before its built such an envied basketball reputation.

As has been mentioned many times, the BigEast's days were numbered when the BigTen decided to expand and took Penn State. It ended up being such a huge money deal for the conference that the race to build power football conferences began. And the BigEast tried too many machinations to make it work...and in vain so long as its members had such divergent interests.

 

[Dcuse]

Decades later, I have to admit that I don't understand The venom towards Georgetown-especially Ewing and Thompson. This incredible thing wouldn't have existed without them. I am grateful to them. Ewing is a cool guy now. Thompson seems to love Syracuse and has nothing but good to say about them every year around tourney time. In the 80's I was ready to rush the floor to defend Andre Hawkins,Pearl and anyone else but that game is over. Get over it folks

 

[OrangeDW]

From the Boneyard:

"BS to the idea that CT wasn't revelvant to the early BE years.

Three seasons after Nova's win, a year before Seton Hall's "hoosiers" moment. UConn wins the NIT. Two seasons after that the Elite 8, and then its on. Less than a decade later we are rolling over the conference.
SubbaBub, Today at 7:19 AM
#107
uconnell likes this. "

I don't know if that fledgling conference would have ever made it, if it wasn't for that Connecticut NIT championship in 1988! HUGE!!

 

[Full_Rebar]

I think that is true to an extent. I also think ESPN tried to exonerate itself from any blame by pointing out that the League turned down their $1.4 Billion offer for televising rights, insinuating that it was the basketball onlies who were against it causing the football schools to bolt.

Actually Notre Dame and Pitt were a big reason the deal was squashed as they believed that it should be higher. Why ND was so heavily involved in tv negotiations without being a full member is a question that someone needs to ask the BE leaders at the time...hopefully someone is working on a book about what really happened to cause the break-up.

 

[HurleyForHeisman]

What is somewhat lamentable is that an eastern all sports conference couldn't be mustered to keep the former eastern independents playing together.

In fact, such a conference was put together and it was called the Big East. By the time PSU left for the Big 10, Syracuse football was poised for a strong 15 -year run. From 1987-2001 SU had a better winning percentage than PSU. The Big East was a successful football league. It was Miami's departure, not entrance, that killed the Big East.

 

[Chip]

One last point on the Georgetown nonsense. You old timers (yeah, I said that out loud and I'm including myself) will probably remember who was one of the most loudly booed Georgetown players in the Dome era. I want to say, 1991 season. It was Brian Kelly. He was playing John Thompson basketball, cheap shots, elbows. 30,000 SU fans screaming boo-urns at the top of their lungs whenever he touched the ball.

And here's the thing about Brian Kelly. He was white.

It was the coach and his style, regardless of who played for him.