Rotation

[upperdeck]

The McLeod I saw last night adds nothing offensively, didn't block many shots and didn't rebound on either end. Hima will at least will grab some rebounds and block shots. I'll take that any day of the week over the performance I saw last night from McLeod. Brown I like but would love to see him at PF more.
Carey...haven't seen enough of him yet to know what he can do.

he blocked 3 in under 20 min. If he was blocking 6 a game he would lead the country. He is in the top 30

 

[two3zone]

Can Will Patterson play post defense without getting spun like a top?

I’d be surprised if he ever gets minutes here.

 

[DPCuse]

he blocked 3 in under 20 min. If he was blocking 6 a game he would lead the country. He is in the top 30

Didn't realize he had 3. I only remembered 1 clean block. Felt like he missed getting a hand on several more within his reach.

 

[oTTo113445]

Boeheim always had one not-so-athletic guy who could get minutes by outscoring the other team, and one .5 man who could get extra minutes with athleticism. Cuffe is A, Benny could be Both, not sure about C yet. Just an opinion.

 

[Nicknack]

You guys need to let the Hima minutes die. He’s not a P5 player.

Hmmmm.

 

[CardiacCuse]

he blocked 3 in under 20 min. If he was blocking 6 a game he would lead the country. He is in the top 30

if a center gives up 2 uncontested layups/dunks but blocks one shot, is that good?

for me, it sucks. thats what Im seeing a lot with Mcleod.

yeah he gets his blocks but he also gives up even more easy buckets.

so, i dont think you can reduce an analysis of a center to strictly the number of blocks they get...even though it does look nice on paper.

 

[upperdeck]

if a center gives up 2 uncontested layups/dunks but blocks one shot, is that good?

for me, it sucks. thats what Im seeing a lot with Mcleod.

yeah he gets his blocks but he also gives up even more easy buckets.

so, i dont think you can reduce an analysis of a center to strictly the number of blocks they get...even though it does look nice on paper.

I dont see the number of uncontested plays that people are complaining about. He is often the only guy even close to going after rebounds when he is in there. Not every shot can be blocked and not every shot should try to be blocked. If he was playing zone then thats one thing, but in man when his man is not posting around the basket he cant always be in a good spot to go get the ball. He cant make up for every bad rotation the other plays have made.

 

[CardiacCuse]

I dont see the number of uncontested plays that people are complaining about. He is often the only guy even close to going after rebounds when he is in there. Not every shot can be blocked and not every shot should try to be blocked. If he was playing zone then thats one thing, but in man when his man is not posting around the basket he cant always be in a good spot to go get the ball. He cant make up for every bad rotation the other plays have made.

the opponent should not get easy dunks layups when mcleod is in the game...period.

you are more forgiving than the rest of us in that regard.

even if it is man and not zone, there's no excuse. thats his role. or it needs to be.

that is the reason he is on the floor...protect the rim ...that should be his only goal.

if the lackadaisical way he protects the rim (often due to positioning) is due to coaching instructions, then the instructions need to change...Im betting that it isnt on the coaches, though.

surprised you havent noticed what most other seem to.

 

[Sbucketball]

I dont see the number of uncontested plays that people are complaining about. He is often the only guy even close to going after rebounds when he is in there. Not every shot can be blocked and not every shot should try to be blocked. If he was playing zone then thats one thing, but in man when his man is not posting around the basket he cant always be in a good spot to go get the ball. He cant make up for every bad rotation the other plays have made.

In the Gtown game thread I posted it seemed like we were giving Gtown a free layup line. They had one uncontested layup after another. All McLeod has to do is slide in and stand there with his hands straight up, doesn't have to jump or go for the block, especially when guards and wings are scoring at the rim. And he always seems to be out of position to rebound - on offense it seems like he focuses on getting back instead of crashing the boards, so I honestly have no idea what Red is telling him to do.

 

[upperdeck]

the opponent should not get easy dunks layups when mcleod is in the game...period.

you are more forgiving than the rest of us in that regard.

even if it is man and not zone, there's no excuse. thats his role. or it needs to be.

that is the reason he is on the floor...protect the rim ...that should be his only goal.

if the lackadaisical way he protects the rim (often due to positioning) is due to coaching instructions, then the instructions need to change...Im betting that it isnt on the coaches, though.

surprised you havent noticed what most other seem to.

So protect the rim like last weekend where his man was shooting 3s?

He is blocking shots at a rate as high as anyone in the country in limited minutes so how many should he block?

 

[upperdeck]

In the Gtown game thread I posted it seemed like we were giving Gtown a free layup line. They had one uncontested layup after another. All McLeod has to do is slide in and stand there with his hands straight up, doesn't have to jump or go for the block, especially when guards and wings are scoring at the rim. And he always seems to be out of position to rebound - on offense it seems like he focuses on getting back instead of crashing the boards, so I honestly have no idea what Red is telling him to do.

and he was hurt and took himself out of the game.. maybe he couldnt move that well.

 

[Sbucketball]

and he was hurt and took himself out of the game.. maybe he couldnt move that well.

I'll give him a pass for the last game if he's hurt, but from my view it seems like he's been bad at rebounding and getting good positioning all year. To be fair his offensive touch around the basket is better than I expected, but I would take good rebounding and defensive positioning. He should be swallowing up every board, and teams should be terrified to try to score inside against him.

 

[upperdeck]

ok.. watched the first half, i dont think he played the 2nd half

1) did nothing wrong, he tried to help over the top of another SU player
2) he was at the top of the paint, easy layup so I guess from 20 ft away he could try to block it
3) nothing
4) got picked illegally and the guy got around him though he almost blocked it, but he was also at the foul line when this happened
he came out after 3+ minutes

came back in with 9 min left

5) caused a miss and got the rebound
6) nothing
7) nothing
8) he switched and stopped the ball and Starling fell asleep for the layup pass
he came out with 6 min to go

thats it.


He actually posted up several times and the one entry pass attempted by Bell was awful, another he was open and Taylor got stripped.

He is the only guy most of the time actually trying to box out

Where are all the easy layups he let in? one he stopped, one he tipped but it went in and one he stopped the ball and Starling fell asleep..

Watch that half again.. He often slacked off his man and controlled the paint, GTOWN never tried to do anything down low. The ball went up and he looked for a box out.

The box score says 4 min played but he was in for more like 6.

I see one play where if he got past the illegal pick he might have stopped a layup..

So one play , yet the complaint is for many mistakes?

 

[atlanticuse]

What isn't shown in the box score is/are people afraid to challenge him.
His presence is felt.
However, I'm worried with his +/-. Which is nearly impossible to find in all of the box scores (the official ones on Scribd have it).

 

[CardiacCuse]

What isn't shown in the box score is/are people afraid to challenge him.
His presence is felt.
However, I'm worried with his +/-. Which is nearly impossible to find in all of the box scores (the official ones on Scribd have it).

what is his + -? i bet its negative

but I agree that is something that can be an advantage...it was huge in the first half vs tennessee, for example. he kept the game close by himself, almost.

ok.. watched the first half, i dont think he played the 2nd half

1) did nothing wrong, he tried to help over the top of another SU player
2) he was at the top of the paint, easy layup so I guess from 20 ft away he could try to block it
3) nothing
4) got picked illegally and the guy got around him though he almost blocked it, but he was also at the foul line when this happened
he came out after 3+ minutes

came back in with 9 min left

5) caused a miss and got the rebound
6) nothing
7) nothing
8) he switched and stopped the ball and Starling fell asleep for the layup pass
he came out with 6 min to go

thats it.


He actually posted up several times and the one entry pass attempted by Bell was awful, another he was open and Taylor got stripped.

He is the only guy most of the time actually trying to box out

Where are all the easy layups he let in? one he stopped, one he tipped but it went in and one he stopped the ball and Starling fell asleep..

Watch that half again.. He often slacked off his man and controlled the paint, GTOWN never tried to do anything down low. The ball went up and he looked for a box out.

The box score says 4 min played but he was in for more like 6.

I see one play where if he got past the illegal pick he might have stopped a layup..

So one play , yet the complaint is for many mistakes?

ok do it for the whole year

(gtown was the best game of the year defensively for the team...and guess when they built the lead? when mcleod was out of the game)

 

[upperdeck]

what is his + -? i bet its negative

but I agree that is something that can be an advantage...it was huge in the first half vs tennessee, for example. he kept the game close by himself, almost.

ok do it for the whole year

(gtown was the best game of the year defensively for the team...and guess when they built the lead? when mcleod was out of the game)

Maybe.. But +/- doesnt help a center if a team makes 10 3's.

But yeah I can go back next game and see how he does.

 

[CardiacCuse]

mcleod +- so far

UVA -13 in 15 min
gtown -1 in 4 min
gonazga -10 in 20 min
tenn -7 in 21 min
cornell +10 in 12min
lsu +14 in 20min
colgate -6 in 20 min (one of the only neg players on the roster)
new hampshite -2 in 10 min (only negative player on roster)
canisius +2 in 18 min (lowest on the team)

im not even trying to diss the guy or anything...but my eyes were not lying to me...best game of the season was the one mcleod played least minutes...

crafty teams like UVA are unplayable for him at the moment imo

He can be useful against bruising unsophisticated teams though...or very small teams without an inside presence.

Needs to get better at team defense, imo.

 

[atlanticuse]

For comparison, Edey leads the nation at 18.7 “box plus minus” (not sure how this is calculated). Against good teams thus far.

Mintz is 9.9 I believe.

McLeod is 5.8.

 

[CardiacCuse]

For comparison, Edey leads the nation at 18.7 “box plus minus” (not sure how this is calculated). Against good teams thus far.

Mintz is 9.9 I believe.

McLeod is 5.8.

even though it isnt entirely in a player's control, its not a meaningless stat. the more games a player plays, the more reliable it becomes, imo

another way of looking at it, is mcleod has 6 games negative and 3 positive...(im not going t include D2 chaminade)...so in 2/3 of games, he has a negative plus minus...which shouldnt just be ignored...its an indicator.

 

[atlanticuse]

even though it isnt entirely in a player's control, its not a meaningless stat. the more games a player plays, the more reliable it becomes, imo

another way of looking at it, is mcleod has 6 games negative and 3 positive...(im not going t include D2 chaminade)...so in 2/3 of games, he has a negative plus minus...which shouldnt just be ignored...its an indicator.

Statistics are becoming more reliable in determining value.

Sadly the “eye test”, team performance and just overall joy (see: 1996 and 1987… among many other seasons like 1994 and 2010) go out the window when we look back.

But it does show a glaring a weakness.
TikTok and Facebook and X photos can’t sugarcoat what a slop McLeod is.

 

[upperdeck]

you can love or hate plus minus but in bball its more a function of your team in many ways.. this isnt hockey where you can actually help stop every goal and have a 60% chance of helping any goal.

I mean he was -1 vs Gtown and went back thru the actual game and he basically made one play that could have gone better on D and never touched the ball on offense.

 

[CardiacCuse]

you can love or hate plus minus but in bball its more a function of your team in many ways.. this isnt hockey where you can actually help stop every goal and have a 60% chance of helping any goal.

I mean he was -1 vs Gtown and went back thru the actual game and he basically made one play that could have gone better on D and never touched the ball on offense.

for 1 game, ok.

but over 10, 20 games?

the pattern will start to matter.

Mcleod so far has had negative plus or minus in games the team has won and has also been at the bottom on the team rankings for several games - which indicates that the team often functions worse with him than without.

if you look at in-game comparisons, it can be very telling, imo.

how was the team with this player? how was the team without this player? vs the same opponent.

of course there are a lot of variables but look at judah...he has the best plus minus...for a reason...when hes out the team struggles to score. etc

maybe it isn't the fault of the player...maybe the strategy with that player needs to change...maybe it is the coach using poor strategy with that player, for example...maybe the opponent was hot from 3.

but its not just random ... it reveals something.

imo it shows that the coaches need to look at how they are using mcleod and what they are trying to do with him on the floor as a team and make some adjustments...

 

[atlanticuse]

for 1 game, ok.

but over 10, 20 games?

the pattern will start to matter.

Mcleod so far has had negative plus or minus in games the team has won and has also been at the bottom on the team rankings for several games - which indicates that the team often functions worse with him than without.

if you look at in-game comparisons, it can be very telling, imo.

how was the team with this player? how was the team without this player? vs the same opponent.

of course there are a lot of variables but look at judah...he has the best plus minus...for a reason...when hes out the team struggles to score. etc

maybe it isn't the fault of the player...maybe the strategy with that player needs to change...maybe it is the coach using poor strategy with that player, for example...maybe the opponent was hot from 3.

but its not just random ... it reveals something.

imo it shows that the coaches need to look at how they are using mcleod and what they are trying to do with him on the floor as a team and make some adjustments...

i pay attention to NBA +/- more than NHL (which is actually a bigger stat, imho)... but there are games that NBA starters will be -25 which is terrible. Terrible night for the whole team, not just one or two guys.

McLeod just looks lost, but also - not directly his fault - Mintz and JJ not passing to him - WHEN HE'S OPEN - is also really dumb.

And for that, I blame coaching.

I'd rather 7'4" McLeod take a shot right in front of the basket than Starling, who missed from point blank range. Buuuut... McLeod has missed a couple of those too. Boggles my mind.

 

[tbonezone]

this group ain't synchronized yet. lotta parts no cohesion or flow. red's got some work to do to make this click. our best teams feed off of each other's strengths . gotta understand your role offensively and defensively and play within the team concept. granted that's much more difficult in today's game where we see so much more player turnover. but i sense no team concept. too much solo IMO.

 

[billsin01]

this group ain't synchronized yet. lotta parts no cohesion or flow. red's got some work to do to make this click. our best teams feed off of each other's strengths . gotta understand your role offensively and defensively and play within the team concept. granted that's much more difficult in today's game where we see so much more player turnover. but i sense no team concept. too much solo IMO.

Agree with this but I think Red's in a tough spot in terms of making them fit together in a cohesive way. Consider:

Hima: Can't play due to health issues (I mean, apparently)
McLeod: Can't play on the perimeter. I mean, ever.
Bell: Shoots really well, solid if slightly inconsistent scorer and that scoring is needed. Has improved on defense, but still isn't a good defender, fills no other statistical categories, doesn't move on offense at all and CAN NOT rebound (the rebound attempt that get him benched vs. Oregon was atrocious). Not trying to kill the kid but right now he is not going to grab a board.
Taylor: Kid works hard, rebounds decently, has a nice frame to try and play a bit bigger than his size, moves a bit without the ball, defends pretty well ... BUT, he's lost offensively against P5 teams. He and Bell have combined to shoot 12 FTs in 11 games. That's almost remarkable in a bad way.
Cope: I love the kid and his energy. Does a lot of different stuff on the floor but struggles to shoot and the turnovers will be a problem in at least some games.
Cuffe: Like his defense (struggled against UVA but, who didn't). Love his confidence. Wants the ball, wants to score. Think he's still adjusting to college hoops and being back on the floor after two years off. Seems a bit surprised by the length and athleticism on the floor.
Benny: Who knows? I'm at a loss trying to define his game. Don't hate the kid, but has seemed to have trouble off the court and had a lot of trouble finding ways to contribute on it for going on 2.5 years now. That said, he's tall, athletic and coordinated with pretty quick feet. Probably still have to try and get something from him.
Carey: Not sure he's healthy. Like his athleticism but doesn't appear to be part of the plan.
Patterson: Appears to be redshirting.

Those are Red's options outside the givens -- Brown (best big, doesn't need the ball), Judah (he's Judah), and JJ (has been scoring with more efficiency lately. Still reserving judgment on him but his ball-handling and decent defense will keep him on the floor more often than not.

So what does Red do? That'll be a question all year. I'm guessing it involves some mixing and matching no matter what. My thoughts:

• I'm thinking Copeland will play a bigger and bigger role as the year goes on if for no other reason than he's a two-way player who is our best rebounder. He's also a guy who plays with energy and makes things happen. The issue, of course, is that he also takes things off the table with turnovers and bad decisions. But it feels like we're going to have to live with that to a degree and hope it improves.
• Taylor will continue to be a big part due to the rebounding and defense but if he continues to be invisible offensively, he's going to bleed some minutes at times.
• If we're playing McLeod we have to install some sort of zone. I'm fine trying to get 15 mins or so out of him, but it simply can't be in pressure man. He is completely unplayable on the perimeter. Not only can he not handle a high-ball screen, he often ends up screening our defender out of the play. In a 1-3-1 or something like that, he's at least standing near the hoop.
• Need to continue to experiment with Cuffe. Better defender than Bell, much more confident offensively than Taylor. Not sure he's as good or better than either, but we would have been in big trouble vs. Oregon if he doesn't give us a lift. Think that could happen from time to time going forward.
• Bell -- If he makes a couple shots early, stick with him. If not, sit him down and try again in the second half.
• Benny plays when you're just looking to switch things up. If the guys already mentioned are doing the job, then fine, Benny sits. If not, then play him and hope he can just be as active as possible and run the floor.

Seems like Red is already going this way with some of these guys and it seems he's still open to playing all of them outside of Carey/Patterson. So, we'll see how it plays out. But the two things I'd put money on if you were asking me to predict are these: We see a healthy dose of Copeland more often than not going forward and McLeod will not log many minutes if we're dead set on a heavy dose of man.