Class of 2016 SG/SF Andrew White (VA; Grad Transfer from Nebraska)

[RF2044]

I'm not someone who ever would have suggested either BJ or Roberson for those roles, and I don't imagine you're actually talking about my opinion; it's just some strawman argument. White wants to play the 2, at least get some minutes there. If you don't think that factors into the school choices of prospects, then you're just not paying attention.

I do agree that JB won't play someone where they're not suited. But how many minutes is Battle going to play PG and Gillon sit on the bench - 10 or so? Fifteen tops? That's how much time White will see at the 2, because White and Battle make a good match as guards. Battle with the ball in his hands can drive and score, or kick to White on the perimeter for 3. It's so obvious, I don't see why you keep refusing to see this lineup possibility, and are being so stubborn about it. The kid shot 41% from three in the Big 10 last year and was a 16 PPG scorer.

We already have Roberson and Lydon as forwards, not counting either freshman. They are both going to play at least 30 minutes a game. One is a senior who is going to average a double double this year, and the other is a first round pick. That leaves maybe 20 minutes between both forward positions, if Thompson and Moyer *never* play. How is White going to average more than 20 minutes a game if he *only* plays forward? The math doesn't work.

That's why, if White comes here, he HAS to play some guard. It's math and it's the personnel. We have 3 PGs and no shooting guards. We have 4 forwards. Where do you see the opportunity to get on the court, if you are White? Exclusively at forward, as you say, or is it likely you are going to get some time at 2G? Where do you see your biggest roster need, if you are JB? You've already got 4 forwards and you have no shooting guard.

You have seen JB play many forwards at the 2G spot over the years, going all the way back to the early 80s. It's one of his hallmarks, really. Just like Duke has been a proponent of 3 guard offenses since before it was popular, and liked to fill one of those spots with an athletic guard who could get some boards. It's their way of playing. Just like JB tends to play 3 forwards, a center and a point guard. It's how they view their preferred personnel in a game.

Some counterpoints for you, Matt, as many of your positions appear to be built upon false assumptions that you have decided are true and present as "facts:"

• It is ri-dang-diculous to claim that the team does not have a 2G on the roster, when Battle is a prototype 2. He has transcendent offensive skills. You claim he can't shoot. Others who have seen him play suggest he can. I'll grant that it is a question mark, but let's see what the kid can do before writing him off.

• Battle and White would NOT constitute a "good match as guards." They would be a tandem that invites pressure. And this issue would be further exacerbated by also including them in a lineup that includes Lydon, Roberson, and take your pick of centers. In that grouping, Roberson might actually be the second best ball handler--not good. Plus, there's the sticky wicket of White not having much of a handle and averaging .6 assists per game. Other than shooting, there is very little in his game that suggests he could play guard.

• White will see some time at 2... largely in the preseason portion of the schedule. He provides supplemental depth on a roster that lacked it, but the guard rotation will be primarily comprised of three players [Battle, Howard, and Gillon], just like every year.

• The lineup you're proposing would have three players out of position. Battle isn't the optimal lead guard on the team--best case scenario, he's behind Howard / Gillon at the 1. White isn't the optimal 2, Battle is. Lydon is at best the third SF on the team behind White and Battle. So, while we might see that lineup situationally, it isn't what I would expect as the staple.

• You've created a false dichotomy about White's minutes distribution. As with just about every Boeheim coached team, the versatility of other players allows him to substitute and then shift other guys around who are already on the floor. He doesn't ONLY have to swap in for a SF or a SG. White's minutes will come at the expense of a mixture of players, including the forwards and centers. In fact, I think people need to start wrapping their heads around the notion that we might not see a consistent 35+ minutes every game from this team. It is rare, but when JB has talent, he plays an expanded rotation such as in 2012. And much like that 2012 team, who gets big minutes any given game will depend largely on matchups and who happens to be performing well that night. So some games, a guy like Roberson might play 38. Others he might play 20 or 15. To just pencil players in at 35+ [or whatever] probably isn't going to line up with JB's minutes distribution here.

 

[RF2044]

Wow, you're so wrong. Burgan played a fair amount of guard on the Jason Hart team. Mookie Jones was a 6-6 who played G for us. Luke Jackson played some guard for us at the top of the zone. Go look it up.

If you think Cipolla and Janulis were natural guards, then you're just not paying attention. They were the 2 slowest "guards" we've ever had.

Moten was a baseline forward his freshman year. Mike Hopkins, Adrian Autry and Michael Edwards all played guard before Moten.

Burgan played 2G on the Hart teams? When? They had a two year overlap, and Janulis started at 2G both years. So who isn't paying attention?

Cipolla and Janulis were absolutely guards. I don't dispute that they were slow [relative to the athletes that they often have on the roster], but that doesn't inherently make them small forwards [who are often equally as athletic as the 2's we prefer to have].

And I'm getting tired of this revisionist history you're espousing miscasting certain players and their roles. Moten played 3 on a terribly undersized team that also featured small forward David Johnson having to play out of position at POWER FORWARD. Do you know why Boeheim had to do that? Because the roster didn't have any other options. That doesn't mean that Moten was a full time small forward--he was a 6-4 guy who was a 2, but had to play 3 until classmate Luke Jackson was ready to play the 3, after which he shifted to the backcourt full time for his final two season.

And again, Jones barely played. He isn't an example of anything. You could probably count the number of minutes Luke Jackson played at the 2 on one hand. He wasn't a guard in any way, shape, or form, and is another poor example.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We played Josh Pace and Louie McCroskey at the 2 on a Big East Championship team. If they can play there, White can. I think if you pigeon hole him at the 3 you risk not having your 5 best guys on the court at the same time ever and Battle can handle PG duties as well as Gmac did.

Anyway, I think it's time to have an all-inclusive 2016-17 lineup thread because we are going to argue this until the season is over.

 

[Knicks411]

• You've created a false dichotomy about White's minutes distribution. As with just about every Boeheim coached team, the versatility of other players allows him to substitute and then shift other guys around who are already on the floor. White's minutes will come at the expense of a mixture of players, including the forwards and centers. In fact, I think people need to start wrapping their heads around the notion that we might not see a consistent 35+ minutes every game from this team. It is rare, but when JB has talent, he plays an expanded rotation such as in 2012. And much like that 2012 team, who gets big minutes any given game will depend largely on matchups and who happens to be performing well that night. So some games, a guy like Roberson might play 38. Others he might play 20 or 15. To just pencil players in at 35+ [or whatever] probably isn't going to line up with JB's minutes distribution here.

This made me curious, I had to look up the 2012 stats. Now, 35 minutes a game is a lot, especially over a full season; some early season blowouts where starters only play 25-30 minutes can make it hard to get to 35.

That being said, the 2012 team had a very even distribution of minutes. Joseph was first on the team with 32.4 MPG; CJ was second at just over 26. There were 5 guys total who played between 22 and 26 minutes per game (Trice, Dion, Scoop, CJ, and Fab).

For the sake of comparison, in the year prior, Rick played 35.6 minutes per game, with Kris and Scoop over 32, and Brandon at 29. Put another way, the #2-4 guys in MPG on that team were all at least 2 MPG ahead of #2 on the 2012 team.

The next year, we had MCW and CJ right on either side of 35, with Brandon at 33.7.

Part of this is the 2012 team was very good and probably had more blowouts and could afford to sit guys, but interesting.

 

[normaliswear]

Oh dear God I think I'm going to take my own life if this 2/3 debate never ends... and I'll use a .223 bullet just for the irony. He will, or he wont. JB and the staff will get them all in practice and see how guys fit.

 

[RF2044]

We played Josh Pace and Louie McCroskey at the 2 on a Big East Championship team. If they can play there, White can. I think if you pigeon hole him at the 3 you risk not having your 5 best guys on the court at the same time ever and Battle can handle PG duties as well as Gmac did.

Anyway, I think it's time to have an all-inclusive 2016-17 lineup thread because we are going to argue this until the season is over.

Pace was a 6-3 guy who actually was guard sized, and developed into a pretty good passer / handler over the course of his career. He couldn't shoot besides that turnaround one handed shot from 10 feet, but that doesn't automatically make him a 3. He was guard sized to begin with, and it was bad for the team that he had to play extended time on the back line of the zone--again, because the team lacked alternatives [you probably recall that many people were clamoring for JB to give Nichols some developmental minutes to shore up that team deficiency, but he wasn't ready and then got injured].

 

[KaiserUEO]

Some counterpoints for you, Matt, as many of your positions appear to be built upon false assumptions that you have decided are true:

• It is ri-dang-diculous to claim that the team does not have a 2G on the roster, when Battle is a prototype 2. He has transcendent offensive skills. You claim he can't shoot. Others who have seen him play suggest he can. I'll grant that it is a question mark, but let's see what the kid can do before writing him off.

• Battle and White would NOT constitute a "good match as guards." They would be a tandem that invites pressure. And this issue would be further exacerbated by also including them in a lineup that includes Lydon, Roberson, and take your pick of centers. In that grouping, Roberson might actually be the second best ball handler--not good. Plus, there's the sticky wicket of White not having much of a handle and averaging .6 assists per game. Other than shooting, there is very little in his game that suggests he could play guard.

• White will see some time at 2... largely in the preseason portion of the schedule. He provides supplemental depth on a roster that lacked it, but the guard rotation will be primarily comprised of three players [Battle, Howard, and Gillon], just like every year.

• The lineup you're proposing would have three players out of position. Battle isn't the optimal lead guard on the team--best case scenario, he's behind Howard / Gillon at the 1. White isn't the optimal 2, Battle is. Lydon is at best the third SF on the team behind White and Battle. So, while we might see that lineup situationally, it isn't what I would expect as the staple.

• You've created a false dichotomy about White's minutes distribution. As with just about every Boeheim coached team, the versatility of other players allows him to substitute and then shift other guys around who are already on the floor. He doesn't ONLY have to swap in for a SF or a SG. White's minutes will come at the expense of a mixture of players, including the forwards and centers. In fact, I think people need to start wrapping their heads around the notion that we might not see a consistent 35+ minutes every game from this team. It is rare, but when JB has talent, he plays an expanded rotation such as in 2012. And much like that 2012 team, who gets big minutes any given game will depend largely on matchups and who happens to be performing well that night. So some games, a guy like Roberson might play 38. Others he might play 20 or 15. To just pencil players in at 35+ [or whatever] probably isn't going to line up with JB's minutes distribution here.

good points.

while having never seen White, I still expect him to end up at the 2 for 5-10 mins with howard or gillon. yes him and battle at the same time gives me flashbacks to stevie bringing the ball up the court...

I think our 5's will often find themselves combining for 20 minutes...or less.

 

[RF2044]

This made me curious, I had to look up the 2012 stats. Now, 35 minutes a game is a lot, especially over a full season; some early season blowouts where starters only play 25-30 minutes can make it hard to get to 35.

That being said, the 2012 team had a very even distribution of minutes. Joseph was first on the team with 32.4 MPG; CJ was second at just over 26. There were 5 guys total who played between 22 and 26 minutes per game (Trice, Dion, Scoop, CJ, and Fab).

For the sake of comparison, in the year prior, Rick played 35.6 minutes per game, with Kris and Scoop over 32, and Brandon at 29. Put another way, the #2-4 guys in MPG on that team were all at least 2 MPG ahead of #2 on the 2012 team.

The next year, we had MCW and CJ right on either side of 35, with Brandon at 33.7.

Part of this is the 2012 team was very good and probably had more blowouts and could afford to sit guys, but interesting.

Good data. And part of it was undoubtedly that we had options on the bench who could play. On a normal Syracuse team, we play 7--maybe 7.5. But when you have a guy who has a poor game or a bad shooting performance [or whatever], you are generally locked into having that guy play despite the off night because they're still the "best" option and the guy that JB trusts. On the 2012 team, that wasn't the case. If "Bad Scoop" showed up, in came Dion to play the bulk of the minutes. It also didn't hurt that we had guys who had the versatility to play a couple of different positions, like CJ.

But when I look at this roster, I see a similar group of talent from 1-10 [assuming White comes here]. I see Moyer--assuming his foot doesn't prevent him from playing this season] and Thompson as the 9th and 10th men in what will primarily be an 8 player rotation, but those guys can play, too. And as I stated above, while it is rare, JB has shown a couple of times that when he has guys who can play he'll expand the rotation and play them. Wouldn't be surprised to see us go 9 deep in some games. Doesn't mean that it will be consistent, but I wouldn't discount the possibility, given the roster / talent.

 

[RF2044]

good points.

while having never seen White, I still expect him to end up at the 2 for 5-10 mins with howard or gillon. yes him and battle at the same time gives me flashbacks to stevie bringing the ball up the court...

I think our 5's will often find themselves combining for 20 minutes...or less.

So, I agree with all of this. I don't see White having to play 10 minutes at guard--I think that we'll primarily have a 3 guard rotation, like we do every year, and that White won't be needed there--but I agree with all the rest.

And that Stevie analogy is a good one that people ought to pay attention to... and be scared of, given how pressure defense is such a staple of the modern collegiate game. Having a combo frosh guard [who admittedly is versatile but not MCW], a non-ball handling White, and a non-ball handling Lydon at the 3 is a recipe for disaster against some teams. And that is the starting lineup some are advocating for.

On the opposite side of the coin, that lineup might work against other teams that don't pressure. Matchups, and whoever is playing well on any given night.

 

[jordoo]

And BTW, Battle can shoot. Your assessment of his skill set is completely off target.

No doubt, kids pull up is money and he can get it when ever. Also his 3pt shooting will be good enough to draw defensive attention.

As far as White playing the 2G spot the problem is with White's lack of guard skills other than shooting. If he is the 2G you best have a PG with an excellent handle and a SF like BillyO or Melo who can bring the ball up or run the offense. Honestly I think White's best chance to get drafted is to showcase his best skill on a big stage, shooting! He can do that playing the back line on defense, where his physicality and rebounding will be a boon, and playing the wing on offense. He's not going to magically develop a handle, court vision and quickness to be an NBA 2G at 22 years old.

 

[orangefog]

Good data. And part of it was undoubtedly that we had options on the bench who could play. On a normal Syracuse team, we play 7--maybe 7.5. But when you have a guy who has a poor game or a bad shooting performance [or whatever], you are generally locked into having that guy play despite the off night. On the 2012 team, that wasn't the case. If "Bad Scoop" showed up, in came Dion to play the bulk of the minutes. It also didn't hurt that we had guys who had the versatility to play a couple of different positions, like CJ.

But when I look at this roster, I see a similar group of talent from 1-10 [assuming White comes here]. I see Moyer--assuming his foot doesn't prevent him from playing this season] and Thompson as the 9th and 10th men in what will primarily be an 8 player rotation, but those guys can play, too. And as I stated above, while it is rare, JB has shown a couple of times that when he has guys who can play he'll expand the rotation and play them. Wouldn't be surprised to see us go 9 deep in some games. Doesn't mean that it will be consistent, but I wouldn't discount the possibility, given the roster / talent.

I agree, and I think he will expand the rotation because he will implement the press on a regular basis. This will tire the guys out a bit more, but he has the roster to support it. Although it isn't ideal, I do think White plays some 2, due to limited amount of guards and the likelihood that they get tired due to the press. I don't think White would be part of the "press package", but he might play a few minutes to give the other guards a breather.

 

[Brooky03]

No doubt, kids pull up is money and he can get it when ever. Also his 3pt shooting will be good enough to draw defensive attention.

As far as White playing the 2G spot the problem is with White's lack of guard skills other than shooting. Of he is the 2G you best have a PG with an excellent handle and a SF like BillyO or Melo who can bring the ball up or run the offense. Honestly I think White's best chance to get drafted is to showcase his best skill on a big stage, shooting! He can do that playing the back line on defense, where his physicality and rebounding will be a boon, and playing the wing on offense. He's not going to magically develop a handle, court vision and quickness to be an NBA 2G at 22 years old.

Where are people seeing the videos of White's terrible ballhandling? It looks good in the highlights I've seen, so I must be missing something?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Pace was a 6-3 guy who actually was guard sized, and developed into a pretty good passer / handler over the course of his career. He couldn't shoot besides that turnaround one handed shot from 10 feet, but that doesn't automatically make him a 3. He was guard sized to begin with, and it was bad for the team that he had to play extended time on the back line of the zone--again, because the team lacked alternatives [you probably recall that many people were clamoring for JB to give Nichols some developmental minutes to shore up that team deficiency, but he wasn't ready and then got injured].

Pace is 6'5'' and I remember the clamoring for Nichols.

It wouldn't be the first time we played guys out of their "normal" position. Rautins played a lot of 3 in 08-09. We just played Gbinije at the point last year and at this time last year a lot of people thought he would be at the 3 with Kaleb at the point.

At some point you have to worry about getting your 5 best players on the court and I believe 2 of our 5 best players are Roberson and Lydon. If you pigeon hole White at the 3, Lydon and Roberson aren't going to be on the court much together unless it's with Lydon at the 5.

 

[dan7800]

Pace was a 6-3 guy who actually was guard sized, and developed into a pretty good passer / handler over the course of his career. He couldn't shoot besides that turnaround one handed shot from 10 feet, but that doesn't automatically make him a 3. He was guard sized to begin with, and it was bad for the team that he had to play extended time on the back line of the zone--again, because the team lacked alternatives [you probably recall that many people were clamoring for JB to give Nichols some developmental minutes to shore up that team deficiency, but he wasn't ready and then got injured].

Pace was one of my favorite players. He couldn't shoot at all, but played good D and rebounded well. A good "glue guy".

 

[RF2044]

100% spot on post. White has zero chance to make the league as a 3. He needs to show he can play the 2 and help out if needed at the 3. If he comes to Syracuse he will play 2 a ton

KCSU, please name a time that JB has played a guy out of position in order to allow him to showcase his wares for the NBA.

You won't be able to do that, because in 40+ years on the bench, it hasn't happened. JB will play White where it is best for the team, with zero--and I mean literally ZERO--consideration for White or any other player needing to "show he can play the 2" in order to make the league.

Why wouldn't he be able to make the league as a 3? That's a false assertion--he's 6-7 and 225 pounds, he could play 3. Now, he might not have the GAME to make it to the NBA, but size at 3 won't be an issue. There are plenty of 6-7 / 6-8 small forwards in the NBA.

 

[orangefog]

Pace was one of my favorite players. He couldn't shoot at all, but played good D and rebounded well. A good "glue guy".

He had a tremendous feel for the game as well. I always felt comfortable with him out on the floor.

 

[Knicks411]

Good data. And part of it was undoubtedly that we had options on the bench who could play. On a normal Syracuse team, we play 7--maybe 7.5. But when you have a guy who has a poor game or a bad shooting performance [or whatever], you are generally locked into having that guy play despite the off night because they're still the "best" option and the guy that JB trusts. On the 2012 team, that wasn't the case. If "Bad Scoop" showed up, in came Dion to play the bulk of the minutes. It also didn't hurt that we had guys who had the versatility to play a couple of different positions, like CJ.

But when I look at this roster, I see a similar group of talent from 1-10 [assuming White comes here]. I see Moyer--assuming his foot doesn't prevent him from playing this season] and Thompson as the 9th and 10th men in what will primarily be an 8 player rotation, but those guys can play, too. And as I stated above, while it is rare, JB has shown a couple of times that when he has guys who can play he'll expand the rotation and play them. Wouldn't be surprised to see us go 9 deep in some games. Doesn't mean that it will be consistent, but I wouldn't discount the possibility, given the roster / talent.

I'm probably biased by the last few years when the minutes have been overwhelmingly distributed at the top end of the roster.

I also think it's worth pointing out that the 2012 team probably didn't have one super elite level player (the Jay williams "guy" or whatever the thing was from that year). Dion was probably the closest but he was coming off the bench which limited his minutes somewhat and he was behind 2 vet guards.

If I had to bet, I would think Lydon leads the team in minutes a game and I think he's going to be pretty close to 35. But you then might have a similar cluster of guys in the 28 range? I can't tell for sure, but based on the stats, White is a hell of a player and I think he's going to get a lot of minutes.

 

[reedny]

We shall see. But I'd like to point out that in recent years there were some confidently predicting that BJ would play 2, that Roberson was a 3, etc. on this forum at the beginning of those players' careers.

People get so hung up on having the maximum size for the zone that they often fail to look at player skill sets / complimentary groupings, and often fail to account for the difficulty of having players play out of position.

I guarantee you one thing: JB is not going to play somebody at a position they are ill-suited for to let them audition for the NBA. It is preposterous to think otherwise. The White camp might have wanted him to play there exclusively, but I doubt that he'd have that opportunity here. Not with the roster we have--it's as simple as that.

And people need to understand that recruiting promises are often akin to pillow talk, and not to be taken as gospel.

Have to plead guilty on this one (red). :noidea:

 

[Knicks411]

KCSU, please name a time that JB has played a guy out of position in order to allow him to showcase his wares for the NBA.

You won't be able to do that, because in 40+ years on the bench, it hasn't happened. JB will play White where it is best for the team, with zero--and I mean literally ZERO--consideration for White or any other player needing to "show he can play the 2" in order to make the league.

Why wouldn't he be able to make the league as a 3? That's a false assertion--he's 6-7 and 225 pounds, he could play 3. Now, he might not have the GAME to make it to the NBA, but size at 3 won't be an issue. There are plenty of 6-7 / 6-8 small forwards in the NBA.

There are a decent amount of 6-7/6-8 stretch 4's in the NBA, forget even about 3's.

Based purely on his size, he profiles more as an NBA 3 than anything else. Which doesn't mean anything, but how many 6-7 2 guards do you see? (Wiki says 6-6 btw, thats still a pretty big 2 guard).

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm probably biased by the last few years when the minutes have been overwhelmingly distributed at the top end of the roster.

I also think it's worth pointing out that the 2012 team probably didn't have one super elite level player (the Jay williams "guy" or whatever the thing was from that year). Dion was probably the closest but he was coming off the bench which limited his minutes somewhat and he was behind 2 vet guards.

If I had to bet, I would think Lydon leads the team in minutes a game and I think he's going to be pretty close to 35. But you then might have a similar cluster of guys in the 28 range? I can't tell for sure, but based on the stats, White is a hell of a player and I think he's going to get a lot of minutes.

No disrespect to any of our other players, but I think White will be the best shooter we have had since Rautins.

 

[RF2044]

Pace is 6'5'' and I remember the clamoring for Nichols.

It wouldn't be the first time we played guys out of their "normal" position. Rautins played a lot of 3 in 08-09. We just played Gbinije at the point last year and at this time last year a lot of people thought he would be at the 3 with Kaleb at the point.

At some point you have to worry about getting your 5 best players on the court and I believe 2 of our 5 best players are Roberson and Lydon. If you pigeon hole White at the 3, Lydon and Roberson aren't going to be on the court much together unless it's with Lydon at the 5.

Pace wasn't 6-5 -- that's a basketball height from his program listing, not a real height. Trust me, when I interviewed him for the old player profiles we did when I was writing for Mason's site, I was shocked at how "short" he was relative to the 6-6 he was touted at when we recruited him.

And let's talk about Gbinije for a moment. He played point guard ALL FOUR YEARS that he was on our team. Reading some posts in this thread, some would have you believe that JB magically inserted him at the 1 this year for KJ with zero preparation, when in fact he'd been groomed to play the 1 here dating back to his redshirt season.

The reason he was successful as a 1 was that he'd worked hard at developing his lead guard skills for three full years prior to last year [and yes, I know that after coming off the bench early as a junior, he settled in as a 3 for the majority of that season]. And despite that, it was still a stop gap measure necessitated by KJ's lack of development / ability that just happened to work. It was far from ideal, but the best option on last year's roster.

 

[RF2044]

No disrespect to any of our other players, but I think White will be the best shooter we have had since Rautins.

I hope you're right! And I hope he lands here -- still waiting for PROOF [although O13's assertion that he has a room assignments / roommates is encouraging].

 

[CusefanATL]

Did White commit?

 

[jordoo]

Where are people seeing the videos of White's terrible ballhandling? It looks good in the highlights I've seen, so I must be missing something?

Not terrible but mostly predicated off the shot fake or hard close out to beat the first defender, BUT what does he do after that? I think he has a passable handle as a SF but not good enough to bring the ball up under pressure against guards or to regularly create for himself or others on offense in the half court against guards.

 

[Brooky03]

Not terrible but mostly predicated off the shot fake or hard close out to beat the first defender, BUT what does he do after that? I think he has a passable handle as a SF but not good enough to bring the ball up under pressure against guards or to regularly create for himself or others on offense in the half court against guards.

How often do we have SGs who create off the bounce, though? Bringing the ball up against pressure won't be a big deal because a lot of teams won't apply pressure like that. Triche and Cooney weren't great ballhandlers and they did okay against tight D.