Class of 2016 SG/SF Andrew White (VA; Grad Transfer from Nebraska)

[Brooky03]

No disrespect to any of our other players, but I think White will be the best shooter we have had since Rautins.

I think we'll have two 'Rautins' on the roster then. White and Lydon.

 

[pearl31]

Did White commit?

No but he has roommates!

 

[Cusefan0307]

White's handle isn't my biggest concern, but his awareness and passing is. He had almost 3 times as many turnovers as assists last year.

 

[jordoo]

How often do we have SGs who create off the bounce, though? Bringing the ball up against pressure won't be a big deal because a lot of teams won't apply pressure like that. Triche and Cooney weren't great ballhandlers and they did okay against tight D.

That's the thing this year we will have Battle who is going to be a stud at doing just that. Also when Howard and Gillon play together Gillon although undersized will also be able to do that.

 

[TinyManInside]

Pace is 6'5'' and I remember the clamoring for Nichols.

It wouldn't be the first time we played guys out of their "normal" position. Rautins played a lot of 3 in 08-09. We just played Gbinije at the point last year and at this time last year a lot of people thought he would be at the 3 with Kaleb at the point.

At some point you have to worry about getting your 5 best players on the court and I believe 2 of our 5 best players are Roberson and Lydon. If you pigeon hole White at the 3, Lydon and Roberson aren't going to be on the court much together unless it's with Lydon at the 5.

Pace is about 6'3". I interacted with him many times and there is no way he's 6'5". Played pickup ball with him and Shumpert a few times and side by side Pace was easily 4" shorter than PShump. Shumpert was actually a little taller than the 6'6" they listed him at.

 

[Knicks411]

No disrespect to any of our other players, but I think White will be the best shooter we have had since Rautins.

The guy made 41% of his 3's last year, and he took 6 per game.

I remember being stunned by his numbers when I looked them up. Nebraska was not a very good team, and he had a true shooting% over 60, and a very good TO rate as well. I hate to scout the statline, and I've never seen him play before (that I remember, at least) but he looks like a really really good player.

 

[creatorsgam]

White's handle isn't my biggest concern, but his awareness and passing is. He had almost 3 times as many turnovers as assists last year.

Nebraska. I am thinking that was trying to do too much as the "go to" guy, being forced into risk-taking, with very little support to work with around him.

 

[Brooky03]

Pace wasn't 6-5 -- that's a basketball height from his program listing, not a real height. Trust me, when I interviewed him for the old player profiles we did when I was writing for Mason's site, I was shocked at how "short" he was relative to the 6-6 he was touted at when we recruited him.

And let's talk about Gbinije for a moment. He played point guard ALL FOUR YEARS that he was on our team. Reading some posts in this thread, some would have you believe that JB magically inserted him at the 1 this year for KJ with zero preparation, when in fact he'd been groomed to play the 1 here dating back to his redshirt season.

The reason he was successful as a 1 was that he'd worked hard at developing his lead guard skills for three full years prior to last year [and yes, I know that after coming off the bench early as a junior, he settled in as a 3 for the majority of that season]. And despite that, it was still a stop gap measure necessitated by KJ's lack of development / ability that just happened to work. It was far from ideal, but the best option on last year's roster.

Gbinije did transition longer to PG (I'll say 2 years of transition, not the full 4), but transitioning from anywhere to PG is monumental. Transitioning from a spot up shooter at SF to a spot up shooter at SG isn't as big a deal. Learning the zone from both spots is going to be the bigger issue. Offensively, SG vs. SF is not a huge deal. Duany was a small SF who played SG pretty well, and he didn't have much for guard skills and couldn't shoot as well as White can.

 

[RF2044]

Gbinije did transition longer to PG (I'll say 2 years of transition, not the full 4), but transitioning from anywhere to PG is monumental. Transitioning from a spot up shooter at SF to a spot up shooter at SG isn't as big a deal. Learning the zone from both spots is going to be the bigger issue. Offensively, SG vs. SF is not a huge deal. Duany was a small SF who played SG pretty well, and he didn't have much for guard skills and couldn't shoot as well as White can.

True--Duany wasn't a natural 2. But he was the best 2 on that roster. And he played on the floor with three other players who predominated the ball -- Carmelo, GMac, and Edelin. The team didn't need him to handle the rock, break pressure, or initiate the offense. The ball was rarely in his hands. He was also a stud athlete who excelled at the top of the zone due to his length and lateral mobility. White is a good athlete, but his lateral mobility is questionable, and it will be hard for him to move his feet up top to stay in front of guards who put the ball on the floor. It just isn't a great fit, whereas he'd be a much better fit on the back line of the zone, where his size, strength, and rebounding would serve the team well.

Re: Gbinije--it was a four year process. He played PG nearly exclusively as a redshirt, as the team had nobody else, and they wanted a bigger player to match up with MCW in practice. Then, his sophomore year he played the majority of his minutes as a backup 1 to Ennis [yes, I know he also played some 2 and 3, but his primary role on that year's team was backup point]. He started at 3 for the majority of his junior year, but also served as the team's backup point guard, and even started there some games, playing lead guard whenever Joseph wasn't out there. And then he started last year at the 1.

So maybe it is more accurate to say that he had a 3 year ramp up building up to having to take the reins as the starting 1 last year, but on his four year career arc at SU, he played a lot of 1. And the grooming certainly began four years ago when he redshirted. It's not like he played 3 his whole career, and then JB abruptly decided to shift him to 1 for his senior season. He was a made-not-born PG, as a function of team need.

 

[Brooky03]

That's the thing this year we will have Battle who is going to be a stud at doing just that. Also when Howard and Gillon play together Gillon although undersized will also be able to do that.

I was arguing more from the point of White playing some SG, not starting there.

I'd like this for our first few rounds of substitutions:

Starters: Howard/Gillon, Battle, White, Roberson, Coleman
1st Subs: Howard/Gillon, Battle, White, Lydon, Chukwu
2nd Subs: Howard/Gillon, White, Lydon, Roberson, Chukwu
3rd Subs: Howard/Gillon, Battle, Lydon, Roberson, Coleman

 

[orangefog]

True--Duany wasn't a natural 2. But he was the best 2 on that roster. And he played on the floor with three other players who predominated the ball -- Carmelo, GMac, and Edelin. The team didn't need him to handle the rock, break pressure, or initiate the offense. The ball was rarely in his hands.

Re: Gbinije--it was a four year process. He played PG nearly exclusively as a redshirt, as the team had nobody else, and they wanted a bigger player to match up with MCW in practice. Then, his sophomore year he played the majority of his minutes as a backup 1 to Ennis [yes, I know he also played some 2 and 3, but his primary role on that year's team was backup point]. He started at 3 for the majority of his junior year, but also served as the team's backup point guard, and even started there some games, playing lead guard whenever Joseph wasn't out there. And then he started last year at the 1.

So maybe it is more accurate to say that he had a 3 year ramp up building up to having to take the reins as the starting 1 last year, but on his four year career arc at SU, he played a lot of 1. And the grooming certainly began four years ago when he redshirted. It's not like he played 3 his whole career, and then JB abruptly decided to shift him to 1 for his senior season. He was a made-not-born PG, as a function of team need.

Good point about Carmelo allowing for a less than ideal ball handling 2G. Maybe someone could make a list of skills that you need out on the floor at all times, like 2 ball handlers, 3 shooters, 1 shot blocker, 2 rebounders...and then create lineups with guys that check off the boxes. It shows how guys like Carmelo and Billy Owens check off so many boxes, that it allows for more specialized players to fill out the rotation. Lydon checks off a lot of boxes, unfortunately ball handling isn't one of them.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Good point about Carmelo allowing for a less than ideal ball handling 2G. Maybe someone could make a list of skills that you need out on the floor at all times, like 2 ball handlers, 3 shooters, 1 shot blocker, 2 rebounders...and then create lineups with guys that check off the boxes. It shows how guys like Carmelo and Billy Owens check off so many boxes, that it allows for more specialized players to fill out the rotation. Lydon checks off a lot of boxes, unfortunately ball handling isn't one of them.

Do we know how good Lydon's ball handling is in year 2?

 

[actorguy1]

As much as I love seeing pages of comments when I open this thread, it's disappointing when most of them are about other former players or roster debates. I really don't want this thread shut down again. Please, with a cherry on top?

 

[orangefog]

Do we know how good Lydon's ball handling is in year 2?

No, remains to be seen, but if he has developed 2G ball handling, then he is the best player ever.

 

[EastCoast2]

True--Duany wasn't a natural 2. But he was the best 2 on that roster. And he played on the floor with three other players who predominated the ball -- Carmelo, GMac, and Edelin. The team didn't need him to handle the rock, break pressure, or initiate the offense. The ball was rarely in his hands. He was also a stud athlete who excelled at the top of the zone due to his length and lateral mobility. White is a good athlete, but his lateral mobility is questionable, and it will be hard for him to move his feet up top to stay in front of guards who put the ball on the floor. It just isn't a great fit, whereas he'd be a much better fit on the back line of the zone, where his size, strength, and rebounding would serve the team well.

Re: Gbinije--it was a four year process. He played PG nearly exclusively as a redshirt, as the team had nobody else, and they wanted a bigger player to match up with MCW in practice. Then, his sophomore year he played the majority of his minutes as a backup 1 to Ennis [yes, I know he also played some 2 and 3, but his primary role on that year's team was backup point]. He started at 3 for the majority of his junior year, but also served as the team's backup point guard, and even started there some games, playing lead guard whenever Joseph wasn't out there. And then he started last year at the 1.

So maybe it is more accurate to say that he had a 3 year ramp up building up to having to take the reins as the starting 1 last year, but on his four year career arc at SU, he played a lot of 1. And the grooming certainly began four years ago when he redshirted. It's not like he played 3 his whole career, and then JB abruptly decided to shift him to 1 for his senior season. He was a made-not-born PG, as a function of team need.

This is how I remember it as well. He was brought here with a good chance of playing the 1/2. He wanted to play Guard, and Coach K wanted him as a PF.

 

[Brooky03]

As much as I love seeing pages of comments when I open this thread, it's disappointing when most of them are about other former players or roster debates. I really don't want this thread shut down again. Please, with a cherry on top?

The roster debates are still mostly on topic since we're talking about where a potential player/recruit would fit on the team. Those debates aren't/shouldn't be the cause of locked threads. The off topic nonsense (which I actually enjoy) was the culprit in the other threads.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

There's no flipping back from Pancake Thomas.

There was some flap about his brother, Jack Thomas.

 

[cusetown1]

The VCU fans think we are boring . Lol man if they only knew how much stuff was deleted . Now back to AW3

 

[orangefog]

The VCU fans think we are boring . Lol man if they only knew how much stuff was deleted . Now back to AW3

Some of them also make fun of us for only averaging 21K fans in a stadium that holds 35K+ for basketball. Others have noted that is an incredible amount of support. They have a mixed bag on their site.

And I just looked through their thread, they aren't funny at all. Lamenting if Andrew White is even real? We had Uncle Leo and tainted mashed potatoes. Pure gold.

 

[Brooky03]

This is how I remember it as well. He was brought here with a good chance of playing the 1/2. He wanted to play Guard, and Coach K wanted him as a PF.

He was brought in to play SG (I think K wanted him at SF, not PF). RF is right that G was pushed to PG out of necessity, but he really didn't start the transition until Joseph struggled in G's Junior year, the way I saw it. It's hard to say how much he learned from scout team minutes his redshirt year and I'm skeptical that his 5 minutes or so at PG backing up Ennis helped him learn the position much. Technically, yes he played at least some PG all 4 years here. He probably didn't take PG seriously until year 3, though, which was more my point.

 

[creatorsgam]

Some of them also make fun of us for only averaging 21K fans in a stadium that holds 35K+ for basketball. Others have noted that is an incredible amount of support. They have a mixed bag on their site.

21k average. Impressive in snow, ice, and subzero temperatures.

 

[RF2044]

He was brought in to play SG (I think K wanted him at SF, not PF). RF is right that G was pushed to PG out of necessity, but he really didn't start the transition until Joseph struggled in G's Junior year, the way I saw it. It's hard to say how much he learned from scout team minutes his redshirt year and I'm skeptical that his 5 minutes or so at PG backing up Ennis helped him learn the position much. Technically, yes he played at least some PG all 4 years here. He probably didn't take PG seriously until year 3, though, which was more my point.

That's not true--there are numerous articles that have talked about how Gbinije was used as a PG during his redshirt year, and his struggles to adapt to what is required of that role. It happened way before KJ came on the scene by about two years.

 

[jordoo]

I was arguing more from the point of White playing some SG, not starting there.

I'd like this for our first few rounds of substitutions:

Starters: Howard/Gillon, Battle, White, Roberson, Coleman
1st Subs: Howard/Gillon, Battle, White, Lydon, Chukwu
2nd Subs: Howard/Gillon, White, Lydon, Roberson, Chukwu
3rd Subs: Howard/Gillon, Battle, Lydon, Roberson, Coleman

Wait! You aren't starting our best front court player who can play all 3 positions?
The rest of that makes sense to me but I think Gillon starts after the way our offense has been the last few years. It's not like Howard was a great zone defender last season anyway.

 

[LetMeIn]

There was some flap about his brother, Jack Thomas.

Yeah, I heard Jack and his sister Suzette were a couple of real Crepes

 

[Brooky03]

Wait! You aren't starting our best front court player who can play all 3 positions?
The rest of that makes sense to me but I think Gillon starts after the way our offense has been the last few years. It's not like Howard was a great zone defender last season anyway.

I think Lydon should start. I put White in the starting lineup as an attempt to avoid that argument haha. Swap line 1 and line 4, and that's what I'd like. I also used the "/" with Howard and Gillon to avoid debating which of them should start. I will say that I don't think Howard and Gillon should be in the game at the same time, though, unless we're going small ball with Battle at SF for whatever reason.