So, after this year Marrone's first full class will

[IthacaBarrel]

How long of a field do we have on average? Do we score better than our ypg indicates? We do good in turnover margin so does that impact whether we have to go 60 yards vs 80? We do poorly in PR. That has a negative impact on short fields. But we are one of the best in the country at KOR so even there we have shorter fields. There is no way you can just use 1 data point.

And the total offense stat doesnt use just one stat like you did, its an average of many stats. That is my point. Like I said, I am not being unreasonable. That is my criteria, doesn't mean a GD thing but that is when I will say this team is improved on O... 55-60 in total offense

 

[SoBristol]

be juniors, we will have some solid sophomores, and his first 1/2 class will be seniors.. Next year should be the year we have at least an average offense, if we are ever going to get there.. Next year... Can't wait. No more talent excuses from the GROB era.

. . . .

Next year, the offense will be missing Bailey, Provo, Chew, Tiller and Hay. Are the replacements better than that group? The replacements would likely be Gulley, Stevens, Sales (?), Alexander and Hickey/Curtis. You still have some GROB carry-overs in key roles and not many impact players among Marrone's recruits.

On the other side, if Chandler returns, the defense should be a lot better with developing stars who have been brought in by Marrone (Spruill, Davis, Bromley).

 

[SmilinBob]

You have to look at the whole offensive picture within the context of the game it is playing. There are so many factors from wind to turnovers to special teams and so on and this is why you watch and study the game and see where each brake down, success or defensive play and see what happened. A good punt pins you on the 8 and a 3 and out because of a dropped ball gives them good field position. If the punter shanks it we are on the 30 and now the receiver catches the ball and it's a first down.

SU needs more 20+ yard plays on offense. The more time you have the ball the more chances for a backfire to happen but on the other hand the more time you have the ball the less your d and their o is not on the field. The better our defense the more explosive our offense can be without bad consequences. It's my feeling this 2011 offense was set up with an average d or worse being part of the deal plus we don't have that big play guy to break one but we do have some good offensive players.

A good offense, a real good offense can exploit the other teams weakness. If you have a good or better defense the more chances you will have to crack the defenses code so to speak. WV has a hell of an offense but we had a gameplan that beat it because it was one dimensional. SU needs to keep improving and be able to do multiple things in order to brake the defensive codes and it has proven that it can not do this against a pressing aggressive defense, hell, even rhode island did a good job defensively against SU. It starts with the oline and goes from there but when they do brake down it's up to the playmakers to make plays to help their struggling teammates out, get the ball moving and the confidence up.

 

[Upstate]

Lets not forget in the YPG debate that we are a top-20 KO return team.

 

[orangenirvana]

Overall ranking to be around 55-60, not 90-100, I think that is fair, no? That to me is average or do yards, points, etc not matter?

As I said, average. That is all I ask from any decent coordinator or HC, dont care how we do it, who plays, who coaches, what scheme.. I want AVERAGE!!!! Imagine that,

I dont care about explosive, multiple, making plays, etc etc etc. AVERAGE. We are not average right now, not even close

You cant win consistently with such a horrid offense, that game was over in the first quarter and everyone knew it

Would West Virginia's defense call our offense horrid? Or even average?

Inconsistent? Absolutely. Horrid? No.

 

[rrlbees]

And the total offense stat doesnt use just one stat like you did

Huh? You are impossible to follow sometimes.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Would West Virginia's defense call our offense horrid? Or even average?

Inconsistent? Absolutely. Horrid? No.

Would Rhode Island? They didn't seem to be taken back by it, what about Rutgers, Louisville, Tulane 2nd half.. etc

 

[orangenirvana]

Would Rhode Island? They didn't seem to be taken back by it, what about Rutgers, Louisville, Tulane 2nd half.. etc

Again...inconsistency.

Did you already forget what a "horrid" offense really looks like? 2005-2008 wasn't that long ago, was it?

 

[Scooch]

It's my feeling this 2011 offense was set up with an average d or worse being part of the deal plus we don't have that big play guy to break one but we do have some good offensive players.

This is what confuses me. I'm going to make a big, sweeping generalization here, but it seems like that when we have a strong D (like last year) we decided it made sense to play very conservatively on O, so as to not make mistakes and let the D win games for us. Yet when we have a shaky D (this year) it seems we've decided to play a conservative O so as not to make mistakes and let the D back on the field as much.

I've seen this O really go balls out once this year, and that was against WVU. I certainly don't expect those kind of results every game, but we play it so damn close to the vest sometimes it's just maddening.

 

[orangenirvana]

This is what confuses me. I'm going to make a big, sweeping generalization here, but it seems like that when we have a strong D (like last year) we decided it made sense to play very conservatively on O, so as to not make mistakes and let the D win games for us. Yet when we have a shaky D (this year) it seems we've decided to play a conservative O so as not to make mistakes and let the D back on the field as much.

I've seen this O really go balls out once this year, and that was against WVU. I certainly don't expect those kind of results every game, but we play it so damn close to the vest sometimes it's just maddening.

Seems like people here are confusing lack of execution with conservatism.

Marrone: "We’re going to max protect more,” he said beforehand, “and we’re going to throw deep. Normally we have tried to beat pressure with hot routes and getting the ball out quickly. You’re not going to be seeing that. We’re going to go empty and invite the pressure, set everything up early to make it look like it’s the same old offense and then throw deep. We have deep crossing patterns, tight end sails and some stutter-and-go’s.”

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/10/syracuse_university_football_p_22.html

 

[GoSU96]

And the total offense stat doesnt use just one stat like you did, its an average of many stats. That is my point. Like I said, I am not being unreasonable. That is my criteria, doesn't mean a GD thing but that is when I will say this team is improved on O... 55-60 in total offense

How is total offense an average of many stats?

Scoring Offense, 64th
Total Offense, 96th
Plays per game, 101st
Yds Per Play, 79th
Rushing, 98th
Yds Per Carry, 84th
Rushing TD's, 96th
Passing Offense, 73rd
Yds per attempt, 83rd
Passing , 48th
Completion %, 24th
Passing TDs, 30th
Int's, 7th (lowest)
3rd down conversion %, 53rd
Sacks allowed, 64th
Tackles for loss allowed, 28th
Turnovers lost, 11th (lowest)
Red zone conversions, 37th
Red zone possessions, 35th
Long plays from scrimmage, 105th
Right now SU's offense is a competent offense that gets it's production from efficiency, protecting the ball, and not beating itself. It lacks an explosive element and doesn't get big chunks of yds or easy points. It also doesn't run a lot of plays compared to most.

It's not a horrid offense at all, but it's been limited in what it's been able to do to this point. Run a couple of more plays, get a couple more 10 -20 yd plays, hit one more long play (30+) per game and the offense is in the 50's, if not better in yardage.

 

[jkm54]

IB, could you do me a favor and put into one concise post and specify the following information:

- If you had the reigns right now, what do you do with Marrone? And what does he need to do to prove himself as the right coach for this program? How long a leash does he have? If this year, we have 6-7 wins and go to a bowl, and next year we have 6-8 wins and go to a bowl, do you get rid of him?

- Realistically, apart from the coach, how solid is the ground Syracuse football is standing on right now? In other words, how many recruits do you think we're pulling in just because we're "Syracuse?"

In my mind, and I love SU to death, but it's not exactly a school that is a "sexy" pick for top-notch recruits so we're going to need to win consistently (and pump some of that new found ACC money once we start pulling that in into new facilities) in order to year-in and year-out pull in top notch talent. The best thing that SU has going for it is its tradition and its ability to put guys in the NFL, even if they aren't on the national radar at the collegiate level. The talent gap that existed at SU at the time of Marrone's hiring is not something that can be solved overnight, which I believe is part of the improvement that Go could be referencing here.

I don't disagree that Marrone's offense seems complicated for the college game. I'd like to see him dumb it down a little bit. But so far, he's been winning and has gotten Cuse to 1 bowl game and seems on track for another this year. In my mind, the recipe to building a strong football program is consistent winning seasons and year-in and year-out presence in bowl games. If Marrone continues to do so, for now, I say he keeps his job and does so securely. I said it yesterday and I'll say it again: if in 3 or 4 more years, we're still squeaking into lower-level bowls, then maybe I'll get on board with maybe Marrone's not the guy to take us to the next level. However, let's secure our position as a mediocre football program before trying to jump to elite status. And even if we were trying to jump to elite status, Syracuse football, at this stage, will not attract the "sexy" coach or the large number of top level recruits we need to secure our position at the top of the food chain. And yes, I'll stop using sexy in quotation marks now.

 

[rrlbees]

Marrone: "We’re going to max protect more,” he said beforehand, “and we’re going to throw deep.

Yep. We do so much max protect stuff on pass plays, that right there tells me the OL is an issue in the passing game. Anyone can go back and look at our last few games. Several times we have gone max protect, used multiple TE's, kept everyone in to block and had Chew alone run a pattern alone. Usually a slant type thing. Funny thing is, we have been pretty successful with it.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

How is total offense an average of many stats?

Scoring Offense, 64th
Total Offense, 96th
Plays per game, 101st
Yds Per Play, 79th
Rushing, 98th
Yds Per Carry, 84th
Rushing TD's, 96th
Passing Offense, 73rd
Yds per attempt, 83rd
Passing , 48th
Completion %, 24th
Passing TDs, 30th
Int's, 7th (lowest)
3rd down conversion %, 53rd
Sacks allowed, 64th
Tackles for loss allowed, 28th
Turnovers lost, 11th (lowest)
Red zone conversions, 37th
Red zone possessions, 35th
Long plays from scrimmage, 105th
Right now SU's offense is a competent offense that gets it's production from efficiency, protecting the ball, and not beating itself. It lacks an explosive element and doesn't get big chunks of yds or easy points. It also doesn't run a lot of plays compared to most.

It's not a horrid offense at all, but it's been limited in what it's been able to do to this point. Run a couple of more plays, get a couple more 10 -20 yd plays, hit one more long play (30+) per game and the offense is in the 50's, if not better in yardage.

I don't know why so many try to put lipstick on a pig here... Good lord. Take away the WVU game, much like GROB's game at LVille in 2007 and you are left with a turd, plain and simple. As I said, people need to watch more college football if you think we have a "competent" offense. wow

I am done talking offense, when we get to 55th in total O, I will come back and discuss it and see if people notice a big difference as I am sure you will, geeze

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Again...inconsistency.

Did you already forget what a "horrid" offense really looks like? 2005-2008 wasn't that long ago, was it?

Hey, that offense looked great in 2007 versus Louisville much like we did in 2011 versus WVU.. blind squirrel nut thing I guess

 

[echosofmanley]

after this year. wont the majority of marrones class be true seniors? Thomas times 2, chiban, lemon, etc

 

[Scooch]

Seems like people here are confusing lack of execution with conservatism.

Marrone: "We’re going to max protect more,” he said beforehand, “and we’re going to throw deep. Normally we have tried to beat pressure with hot routes and getting the ball out quickly. You’re not going to be seeing that. We’re going to go empty and invite the pressure, set everything up early to make it look like it’s the same old offense and then throw deep. We have deep crossing patterns, tight end sails and some stutter-and-go’s.”

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/10/syracuse_university_football_p_22.html

I commended Marrone for those statements just yesterday.

I would say that throwing deep a couple times a game does not mean an offense is not being conservative.

 

[SmilinBob]

Seems like people here are confusing lack of execution with conservatism.

Marrone: "We’re going to max protect more,” he said beforehand, “and we’re going to throw deep. Normally we have tried to beat pressure with hot routes and getting the ball out quickly. You’re not going to be seeing that. We’re going to go empty and invite the pressure, set everything up early to make it look like it’s the same old offense and then throw deep. We have deep crossing patterns, tight end sails and some stutter-and-go’s.”

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/10/syracuse_university_football_p_22.html

Execution is always the key if it's a short pass to a deep route and it takes longer to execute a long pass over a short one. This team executes the short pass better and until they execute the long pass team will continue to cheat in. I also think there is a difference with being conservative and simply doing what works. Again, I hate labels and being "conservative" is again one of them. You take what the defense gives you, you sometimes ram it down their throats until they adjust but you do what you need to do to win the game. If Syracuse went into each game with a 80/20 pass run ratio it would maybe score more but also put the defense on the field a lot more as well. The end goal is to win each game and adjust accordingly and I don't look at running the ball or short passes as conservative but doing what you need to do to win until you can get that long passing game going and then be able to use all facets of the game to your advantage.

I like what Marrone said in your quote and I agree with it, it worked very well in the Pinstripe Bowl but again it depends on what the defense is doing and their talent at executing what they want to do as well.

 

[kingottoiii]

Seems like people here are confusing lack of execution with conservatism.

Marrone: "We’re going to max protect more,” he said beforehand, “and we’re going to throw deep. Normally we have tried to beat pressure with hot routes and getting the ball out quickly. You’re not going to be seeing that. We’re going to go empty and invite the pressure, set everything up early to make it look like it’s the same old offense and then throw deep. We have deep crossing patterns, tight end sails and some stutter-and-go’s.”

http://blog.syracuse.com/orangefootball/2011/10/syracuse_university_football_p_22.html

We were definitely more aggressive this game. I do think we went a little too far away from what has worked for us this year though. It almost seemed like our coaches thought we couldn't get it done so lets go to gimmicks and bombs.

An interesting play which I wish we had gone back to was the one on the goaline where Nassib overthrew West and Provo was also open. We were in a bunch and UL blew the coverage big time. UL is pretty young on D and may have been vulnerable to that bunch formation. Maybe we did go back to it and just didn't execute.

 

[SmilinBob]

We were definitely more aggressive this game. I do think we went a little too far away from what has worked for us this year though. It almost seemed like our coaches thought we couldn't get it done so lets go to gimmicks and bombs.

An interesting play which I wish we had gone back to was the one on the goaline where Nassib overthrew West and Provo was also open. We were in a bunch and UL blew the coverage big time. UL is pretty young on D and may have been vulnerable to that bunch formation. Maybe we did go back to it and just didn't execute.

Yeah I saw Provo wide open and it was an easier throw for Nassib if he did see him. It's funny how things like this happen and when you don't take that exact opportunity sometimes it doesn't present itself again. We saw this last year against USF when their qb never saw a wide wide open receiver and we lived to see another day in that one. A play here or a play there sometimes changes the game dramatically.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

IB, could you do me a favor and put into one concise post and specify the following information:

- If you had the reigns right now, what do you do with Marrone? And what does he need to do to prove himself as the right coach for this program? How long a leash does he have? If this year, we have 6-7 wins and go to a bowl, and next year we have 6-8 wins and go to a bowl, do you get rid of him?

- Realistically, apart from the coach, how solid is the ground Syracuse football is standing on right now? In other words, how many recruits do you think we're pulling in just because we're "Syracuse?"

In my mind, and I love SU to death, but it's not exactly a school that is a "sexy" pick for top-notch recruits so we're going to need to win consistently (and pump some of that new found ACC money once we start pulling that in into new facilities) in order to year-in and year-out pull in top notch talent. The best thing that SU has going for it is its tradition and its ability to put guys in the NFL, even if they aren't on the national radar at the collegiate level. The talent gap that existed at SU at the time of Marrone's hiring is not something that can be solved overnight, which I believe is part of the improvement that Go could be referencing here.

I don't disagree that Marrone's offense seems complicated for the college game. I'd like to see him dumb it down a little bit. But so far, he's been winning and has gotten Cuse to 1 bowl game and seems on track for another this year. In my mind, the recipe to building a strong football program is consistent winning seasons and year-in and year-out presence in bowl games. If Marrone continues to do so, for now, I say he keeps his job and does so securely. I said it yesterday and I'll say it again: if in 3 or 4 more years, we're still squeaking into lower-level bowls, then maybe I'll get on board with maybe Marrone's not the guy to take us to the next level. However, let's secure our position as a mediocre football program before trying to jump to elite status. And even if we were trying to jump to elite status, Syracuse football, at this stage, will not attract the "sexy" coach or the large number of top level recruits we need to secure our position at the top of the food chain. And yes, I'll stop using sexy in quotation marks now.

I would go out and do two things.. Raise money, find a way to get it done, find someone that can get that done. No excuses, don't want to hear them. Upgrade facilities with this money. The way that the school is going about fund raising is horrendous. Mid size donors have to track down people to write checks. I would force Marrone to can Hackett and find an OC with a proven track record running a succesful system in the college game, off the top of my head, who knows maybe the OC at Toledo, Houston, Southern Miss, or Nothern Illinois a school of that nature, Southern Miss, may work as it is down south I don't know. In addition, I would make sure that this individual can recruit and has the track record to do so, not stories that he can recruit, show me his geographic area, relationships and who he has under scholarship at his current school, again proven track record..

I like Marrone as the HC not the OC and he needs to be given every opportunity to improve recruiting with facilities upgardes as I maintain they are almost the worst in the BCS but he also needs to find guys that can recruit when we start beating 2-3 other BCS schools for the majority of our recruits and bring in the NYC rwa talent that seems to be coming in we should see an upgarde.

That is what I would do.. I would implement the system from DAY ONE. no BS. The sooner you do the sooner you start winning and winning consistently and big. Use the dome, looked like WVU still scored a lot versus Rutgers in bad weather last week.

Note- I did not every say FIRE MARRONE people, please, please please. If he cant get it done after year 5 maybe 6 then he needs to go because we will get ass raped week by the better teams in the ACC if we run this product out there but you cant run a BCS program on a shoestring budget, I realize we need to get crative on the fund raising but it needs to get done somehow

 

[SaintTristan]

Overall ranking to be around 55-60, not 90-100, I think that is fair, no?

Thats not average. thats way below average for BCS program. What you are really saying is that we'll have one of the worst offenses for any BCS school and you are ok with that.

 

[orangecuse]

Sometimes stats can be a bit misleading. The 7 points SU scored at the very end of the L'ville game were POINTless! All this debate kind of reminds me of the whole RPI thing discussed every winter and early spring leading up to the Dance. What about using the simple eye test? Similar to all them pundits saying who's on the bubble...regardless of how high their data/RPI might be, etc.

Also, a more accurate assessment of median/average is taking out the best and worst performances and then using the remaining data. I presume the WVA win was our best offensive performance, I'm not sure what our worst was. Take those two away and what do you get? My eyes, based upon the eye test, suggest we fall considerably below average...but those are my eyes & I'm very myopic these days...

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Thats not average. thats way below average for BCS program. What you are really saying is that we'll have one of the worst offenses for any BCS school and you are ok with that.

LOL, yes I am. I aspire to be below average. Thank you. That is all I ask, according to most here we are already average.

 

[jkm54]

Note- I did not every say FIRE MARRONE people, please, please please. If he cant get it done after year 5 maybe 6 then he needs to go because we will get ass raped week by the better teams in the ACC if we run this product out there but you cant run a BCS program on a shoestring budget, I realize we need to get crative on the fund raising but it needs to get done somehow

Thanks for the response, IB. I agree that I wouldn't mind seeing a more established OC. By no means am I saying that we're fielding the perfect product this year, but as of yet, I can't really complain about year 3. My goal for Marrone, at this stage, is to continue to put together winning seasons, get bowl invites, and establish ourselves as a competitive football program who is consistently focused on closing the talent gap. Perhaps after this year or next, we will be more attractive to a higher-level tier OC, and hopefully we'll spend to bring that person in. After Year 5/6, my goals will shift for Marrone as I'll expect Syracuse to really start pulling in talent and competing for higher-tier bowl bids. If, at that point, Marrone is proving that he's not the guy that can take us to that next level, then we'll have at least a marketable football program that can attract a guy that maybe can. However, until that happens, in looking at the big picture here, and not reacting after each game, I'm pretty damn happy with the course Marrone has us going on. I think your criticisms of the offense are fair and if we were to jump to the ACC next year, I don't think its unreasonable to be concerned that we could take a step backwards in the win column if this is product that we put on the field next year.