So if we got White... (and question about closers, and win differential)

[CaptainJ]

1) So if we got White and Boeheim had 10 quite capable players(do I need to even finish this question?), is JB playing 10 deep? We don't really have any actual news or much other than speculation in the recruiting thread, so I'd like to explore how folks think the PT would be doled out.

Would anyone on the perimiter be getting true starter's minutes, or even close? I'm more interested in the minutes than I am with who starts, particularly if JB starts Boeheiming people like he's known to do. I find it amazing how quickly this teams "problems" will be redefined if he close white.

2)Another question: For something short term like this, is there a primary recruiter or does the whole staff blitz the guy? Does Boeheim actually take more responsibility unlike when he sends his assistants to compete with head coaches? I want to know if we're depending on someone to be a "closer" like in that epic monologue by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry, Glen Ross. Autry just moved up the sales leader board when he closed TT, and I just hope whomever is doing the talking is in hardcore closer mode! Seriously, Boeheim's career is winding down, and this one close would be like multiple wins, which leads to my next question. I wish Boeheim and friend would watch this video before they do anything else.




3)Does anyone care to venture an estimation on the probable win differential the Cuse would have is somone can close this guy?

4)Have any of you lilly livers ever done sales and lived by your wits?

 

[cuseattle]

I live by my wits daily.

Great scene Capt. J,

 

[dasher]

1) So if we got White and Boeheim had 10 quite capable players(do I need to even finish this question?), is JB playing 10 deep? We don't really have any actual news or much other than speculation in the recruiting thread, so I'd like to explore how folks think the PT would be doled out.

Would anyone on the perimiter be getting true starter's minutes, or even close? I'm more interested in the minutes than I am with who starts, particularly if JB starts Boeheiming people like he's known to do. I find it amazing how quickly this teams "problems" will be redefined if he close white.

2)Another question: For something short term like this, is there a primary recruiter or does the whole staff blitz the guy? Does Boeheim actually take more responsibility unlike when he sends his assistants to compete with head coaches? I want to know if we're depending on someone to be a "closer" like in that epic monologue by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry, Glen Ross. Autry just moved up the sales leader board when he closed TT, and I just hope whomever is doing the talking is in hardcore closer mode! Seriously, Boeheim's career is winding down, and this one close would be like multiple wins, which leads to my next question. I wish Boeheim and friend would watch this video before they do anything else.




3)Does anyone care to venture an estimation on the probable win differential the Cuse would have is somone can close this guy?

4)Have any of you lilly livers ever done sales and lived by your wits?

We won't play 10 guys for any kind of steady rotation. . I don't think TT and maybe Moyer and Howard will see a lot of minutes. I haven't seen TT or Moyer play (they might be great, for all I know) but they would be the logical ones to have fewer minutes. And I have been on commission for the vast majority of my life. And the three years I had a salary, I also got commission overrides.

 

[cuseattle]

We won't play 10 guys for any kind of steady rotation. . I don't think TT and maybe Moyer and Howard will see a lot of minutes. I haven't seen TT or Moyer play (they might be great, for all I know) but they would be the logical ones to have fewer minutes. And I have been on commission for the vast majority of my life. And the three years I had a salary, I also got commission overrides.

That sound spot on. TT probably needs a while to get acclimated anyway. Howard seems low on the depth chart even without White. I do envision MM minutes.

 

[721Comstock]

That sound spot on. TT probably needs a while to get acclimated anyway. Howard seems low on the depth chart even without White. I do envision MM minutes.

Agreed. IF White is on board, then TT and Frankie are probably getting minimal run once the conference schedule starts up.

This assumes that either Gillon and/or Battle is capable of running the show by then.

Moyer strikes me like a Frosh CJ - can hustle and do enough garbage man stuff to earn some PT.

PS - Straight commission for the last 2+ decades.

 

[RF2044]

I think that Moyer / TT are certainly capable, but probably the odd men out as freshman. Doesn't mean that they won't play some, but I'd envision them being the 9th and 10th guys in what would primarily be an 8 player rotation. We'd be loaded if White came here.

Howard plays, a lot, as the third guard. But Gillon and Battle will be the primary guys / starters in the backcourt.

Regardless, we'll be deep at every position, we'll have shooters, and we'll have the versatility of guys who can play multiple positions. I can't remember a time when we had a guy like TT as potentially the fourth center in the mix, or a player of Moyer's caliber sitting.

All predicated upon landing White, of course.

 

[Cusefan0307]

DC/Chukwu/Lydon
Roberson/Lydon/White
Lydon/White/Battle
White/Battle/GIllon
Battle/Gillon/Howard

Moyer and Thompson will be great in 2017, just not their time yet. I bet they play around the same amount Howard did this year. We will have multiple lineup options just with 8 guys the way I see it, especially if JB lets Battle play the baseline of the zone.

 

[jordoo]

1) So if we got White and Boeheim had 10 quite capable players(do I need to even finish this question?), is JB playing 10 deep? We don't really have any actual news or much other than speculation in the recruiting thread, so I'd like to explore how folks think the PT would be doled out.

Would anyone on the perimiter be getting true starter's minutes, or even close? I'm more interested in the minutes than I am with who starts, particularly if JB starts Boeheiming people like he's known to do. I find it amazing how quickly this teams "problems" will be redefined if he close white.

2)Another question: For something short term like this, is there a primary recruiter or does the whole staff blitz the guy? Does Boeheim actually take more responsibility unlike when he sends his assistants to compete with head coaches? I want to know if we're depending on someone to be a "closer" like in that epic monologue by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry, Glen Ross. Autry just moved up the sales leader board when he closed TT, and I just hope whomever is doing the talking is in hardcore closer mode! Seriously, Boeheim's career is winding down, and this one close would be like multiple wins, which leads to my next question. I wish Boeheim and friend would watch this video before they do anything else.

3)Does anyone care to venture an estimation on the probable win differential the Cuse would have is somone can close this guy?

4)Have any of you lilly livers ever done sales and lived by your wits?

First off welcome back Captain!
1. No not 1o in the sense of a regular 10 man rotation. TylerL, TylerR, DC2 and Chukwu are returning guys that are going to be in the rotation. White and Gillon where brought in to play (If White comes here) so they are also in that rotation. Battle is IMO a starter from day one. So thats 7 guys right there. Frank showed promise as a PG and really seemed to be at his best at the end of the season so at worst I see him getting spot minutes and major clean up minutes because he is a talent we want to continue to develop. Taking those 8 guys you have 4 who can play guard, 3 who can play forward and 3 who can play center. Moyer is IMO more likely than TT to get minutes as that 4th forward. I wouldn't be shocked to see 9 guys that are regularly in the equation with steady PT most games. 10 I doubt very much.
2. Red Autry was the lead guy for White but JB is always acting as the closer on visits from what I gather.
3. I thought we would be good either way but White closes so many holes and his ability to play the 2 as well as being basically the only true SF on the roster exponentially increases the overall versatility of the team. JB can put out almost any type of lineup and we will always have good size. So i'd say possibly 4 games in the regular season, but 4 games against the better teams which is huge from my perspective.
4. Nope, unless you count my paper rout when I was 11. I did a fine job of selling the houses in-between the ones that I already delivered to. I was however quite bad at managing my money at that age. I recall there were 3 stops along my rout that gave me the opportunity to buy candy. snacks, baseball cards and the like.

 

[jordoo]

I think that Moyer / TT are certainly capable, but probably the odd men out as freshman. Doesn't mean that they won't play some, but I'd envision them being the 9th and 10th guys in what would primarily be an 8 player rotation. We'd be loaded if White came here.

Howard plays, a lot, as the third guard. But Gillon and Battle will be the primary guys / starters in the backcourt.

Regardless, we'll be deep at every position, we'll have shooters, and we'll have the versatility of guys who can play multiple positions. I can't remember a time when we had a guy like TT as potentially the fourth center in the mix, or a player of Moyer's caliber sitting.

All predicated upon landing White, of course.

I think we could see Moyer as that regular 8th guy over Howard if Battle is really good out of the gate and Lydon/Moyer have success playing as the 3 on offense. I couldn't agree more with that bold part above. White seems to check all the left over boxes that weren't checked with this team.

 

[Jack Hall]

I think that Moyer / TT are certainly capable, but probably the odd men out as freshman. Doesn't mean that they won't play some, but I'd envision them being the 9th and 10th guys in what would primarily be an 8 player rotation. We'd be loaded if White came here.

Howard plays, a lot, as the third guard. But Gillon and Battle will be the primary guys / starters in the backcourt.

Regardless, we'll be deep at every position, we'll have shooters, and we'll have the versatility of guys who can play multiple positions. I can't remember a time when we had a guy like TT as potentially the fourth center in the mix, or a player of Moyer's caliber sitting.

All predicated upon landing White, of course.

This is how i happen to see it. I really believe White plays both front and back of zone. Not sure if Battle moves from front to back of zone sometimes. Assumed he would, but if White comes here that might change that

I also think Howard gets a lot of play as back up PG. imo he is going to be real good, both this upcoming season but also the year after he will be a very key guy...

 

[Jack Hall]

Captain J, if you dont like this in your thread pls have it deleted.

But another ?: what would the Melo Center 5 on 5 practice look like? My guess would be Gillon, Battle, Lydon, Roberson, DC against Howard, White, MM, TT, Pascal is how most scrimmages start out. Either way would be some tremendous (and tremendously competitive) practice sessions!

 

[jordoo]

Captain J, if you dont like this in your thread pls have it deleted.

But another ?: what would the Melo Center 5 on 5 practice look like? My guess would be Gillon, Battle, Lydon, Roberson, DC against Howard, White, MM, TT, Pascal is how most scrimmages start out. Either way would be some tremendous practice sessions!

That is a fun question. I would think they would rotate some times but those line ups you have make sense, maybe you swap Moyer and Lydon. Midnight Madness may give us a good indication of what the usual 5vs5 practice would be.

 

[Jack Hall]

That is a fun question. I would think they would rotate some times but those line ups you have make sense, maybe you swap Moyer and Lydon. Midnight Madness may give us a good indication of what the usual 5vs5 practice would be.

You would be correct, the coaches would have to switch things up a lot...imo

 

[Day2]

I could see Roberson losing minutes. This won't be the starting five, but I think we'll see a lot of Gillon/Battle/White/Lydon/Chukwu at the end of games.

 

[jordoo]

I could see Roberson losing minutes. This won't be the starting five, but I think we'll see a lot of Gillon/Battle/White/Lydon/Chukwu at the end of games.

Especially if Chukwu has made himself into any sort of threat offensively. I agree that Roberson could play less this season with the addition of White but he's still going to be in the main rotation.

 

[Jack Hall]

I could see Roberson losing minutes. This won't be the starting five, but I think we'll see a lot of Gillon/Battle/White/Lydon/Chukwu at the end of games.

To make mins for White, i would think Gillon, Howard, Battle, Roberson, even Lydon will all lose a few mins. But i would think for a shot at another FF, it would probably be worth it.

I am not convinced even the Cs wont lose a few mins because of White. Ie Wouldnt be shocked to see JB experiment with a lineup of Gillon, Howard, Battle, White, Lydon against smaller team(s). Wouldnt be much different than the small lineup JB had to use last yr. but personally i want to see Pascal out there as much as possible, his presence should let JB play the most aggressive form of his zone as possible next season

 

[Dave85]

1) So if we got White and Boeheim had 10 quite capable players(do I need to even finish this question?), is JB playing 10 deep? We don't really have any actual news or much other than speculation in the recruiting thread, so I'd like to explore how folks think the PT would be doled out.

Would anyone on the perimiter be getting true starter's minutes, or even close? I'm more interested in the minutes than I am with who starts, particularly if JB starts Boeheiming people like he's known to do. I find it amazing how quickly this teams "problems" will be redefined if he close white.

2)Another question: For something short term like this, is there a primary recruiter or does the whole staff blitz the guy? Does Boeheim actually take more responsibility unlike when he sends his assistants to compete with head coaches? I want to know if we're depending on someone to be a "closer" like in that epic monologue by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry, Glen Ross. Autry just moved up the sales leader board when he closed TT, and I just hope whomever is doing the talking is in hardcore closer mode! Seriously, Boeheim's career is winding down, and this one close would be like multiple wins, which leads to my next question. I wish Boeheim and friend would watch this video before they do anything else.


3)Does anyone care to venture an estimation on the probable win differential the Cuse would have is somone can close this guy?

4)Have any of you lilly livers ever done sales and lived by your wits?

Wow the video reminds me of work. If the desired result of his dialog was to motivate the troops I'm not sure Baldwin's character accomplished the goal. Sticks, carrots, and abusive language only goes so far. People are complicated. I'm not sure the workers looked very motivated. Maybe he would have been more effective if he spent the effort gaining their respect. I'm not sure pisssing contest rhetoric is that all impressive. I kept thinking what a . All Baldwin's character did was cement the opinion.

I'm not sure I would ever want our recruiting staff to ever use the tactics shown in the video. I get the whole purpose of sales is to get someone to buy something they do not really need or want. I would hope the recruits we get sincerely want to be Orange basketball players. Closing the deal is not everything in the relationship. We also need our players to perform well which includes wanting to be a member. If it's just hard sell we will end up with players who really don't want to be here.

I would also add the Orange coaching staff are already highly motivated just from their love of Orange basketball. They do not need to smacked with a stick or baited with carrots.

 

[007]

What we do know: Hall of fame coach (his legend will only grow once he retires and people look back at the consistency of what he was able to do), with a 40 year resume of nearly unprecedented success and winning. JB has been amazing. He has a formula and that is not going to change.

JB's career has been predicated on hating to lose any game, and cynicism. He has always (always = 40 years) given the lion's share of minutes to those players who he believes will give the team the greatest chance of winning. Period. To be one of those players, you have to earn his trust (this is the cynicism part). And, if JB does not trust you.... In a perfect world, I have little doubt that JB would play his 5 best 35-38 minutes/game, with situational substitutions as absolutely necessary. Short of that, he will play the fewest number of players he can in order to win. Developing depth for depth's sake has never been the goal.

So, unless JB feels that he can "risk" playing 9-10 deep, you can expect to see a 7.5ish rotation, IMO.

 

[tee1222]

4)Have any of you lilly livers ever done sales and lived by your wits?

It's a CaptainJ original, so I will have to digest for a bit. But to answer question 4?
Arg, me matie. Arg. Took and passed my series 7 and 63. I worked for THE Boiler Room, the real company behind the movie. Long story, some of which is on this site already. This was nearly 20 years ago.

 

[SWC75]

1) So if we got White and Boeheim had 10 quite capable players(do I need to even finish this question?), is JB playing 10 deep? We don't really have any actual news or much other than speculation in the recruiting thread, so I'd like to explore how folks think the PT would be doled out.

Would anyone on the perimiter be getting true starter's minutes, or even close? I'm more interested in the minutes than I am with who starts, particularly if JB starts Boeheiming people like he's known to do. I find it amazing how quickly this teams "problems" will be redefined if he close white.

2)Another question: For something short term like this, is there a primary recruiter or does the whole staff blitz the guy? Does Boeheim actually take more responsibility unlike when he sends his assistants to compete with head coaches? I want to know if we're depending on someone to be a "closer" like in that epic monologue by Alec Baldwin in Glengarry, Glen Ross. Autry just moved up the sales leader board when he closed TT, and I just hope whomever is doing the talking is in hardcore closer mode! Seriously, Boeheim's career is winding down, and this one close would be like multiple wins, which leads to my next question. I wish Boeheim and friend would watch this video before they do anything else.

3)Does anyone care to venture an estimation on the probable win differential the Cuse would have is somone can close this guy?

4)Have any of you lilly livers ever done sales and lived by your wits?

JB has said his assistants do the spade work and he is the "closer".

He will play everyone early and the guys in the rotation are the guys who have shown him that they can be an asset to a the team in a competitive ballgame. He does that every year and so do most coaches. I would suspect that the freshmen are the ones most vulnerable to not making the rotation and that the lower-rated freshmen are the most vulnerable of that group. Again, there is nothing unusual about that.

I think this team can have the type of season we did in 2011-12 when we went 34-3, our best record ever. I think the ACC might be a little tougher than the Big East was in 2012, so they could be that good and not quite have that good a record. But I don't see them losing a lot of games.

I worked for the government so I didn't sell anything and the use of my wits was not encouraged. The eternal question was:
Who is dumber: the public or the government. I'd have to say it was the public but the government had fewer excuses.


The two big questions for this team are: who will play the point and how will JB use his two very different centers. He may have a different group of players for when Coleman, (a slow guy who can score and rebound in the half-court game) or Chukwu (an athletic shot-blocker who doesn't score or rebound much but can ignite the fast break)

 

[IthacaMatt]

We won't play 10 guys for any kind of steady rotation. . I don't think TT and maybe Moyer and Howard will see a lot of minutes. .

What do you consider "rotation"? We've had several years where 10 guys played around 8-10 minutes a game for at least 25 games out of the overall schedule.

To me, that's a rotation player to me. That's enough time to impact a game and to have a meaningful role. Those guys would be a third center, like the year we used all three of Fab, Baye and Xmas, or years when we used all four guards, even if the 4th guard was Allen Griffin, Tony Bland or MCW as a frosh.

That third center or 4th guard isn't going to play much in March, but that doesn't mean they didn't contribute, and that they didn't develop as a player in order to be ready to make the jump the next year.

By those standards, if we get White, I think we will play about 9 guys meaningful minutes. If we don't get White, I think it will be 8 1/2 guys.

With White:
PG: Battle 15, Gillon 15, Howard 10
SG: White 25, Battle 15
SF: Lydon 35, White /Battle 5
PF: Roberson 25-30, Moyer/Thompson 10-15
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

Without White:
PG: Gillon 18, Battle 15, Howard 12
SG: Battle: 23, Gillon 17
SF: Lydon 35, Moyer 5
PF: Roberson 25-30, Moyer/Thompson 10-15
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

 

[Dave85]

What do you consider "rotation"? We've had several years where 10 guys played around 8-10 minutes a game for at least 25 games out of the overall schedule.

To me, that's a rotation player to me. That's enough time to impact a game and to have a meaningful role. Those guys would be a third center, like the year we used all three of Fab, Baye and Xmas, or years when we used all four guards, even if the 4th guard was Allen Griffin, Tony Bland or MCW as a frosh.

That third center or 4th guard isn't going to play much in March, but that doesn't mean they didn't contribute, and that they didn't develop as a player in order to be ready to make the jump the next year.

By those standards, if we get White, I think we will play about 9 guys meaningful minutes. If we don't get White, I think it will be 8 1/2 guys.

With White:
PG: Battle 15, Gillon 15, Howard 10
SG: White 25, Battle 15
SF: Lydon 35, White /Battle 5
PF: Roberson 25-30, Moyer/Thompson 10-15
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

Without White:
PG: Gillon 18, Battle 15, Howard 12
SG: Battle: 23, Gillon 17
SF: Lydon 35, Moyer 5
PF: Roberson 25-30, Moyer/Thompson 10-15
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

Those estimates are as good as any. Maybe Howard gets more PT from Gillon.

PG: Gillon 25, Howard 15
SG: Battle 25, White 15
SF: Lydon 25, White 10, Moyer 5
PF: Roberson 25, Moyer 5, Thompson 5
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

This is really hard to do but man those are some tall lineups!

 

[two3zone]

What do you consider "rotation"? We've had several years where 10 guys played around 8-10 minutes a game for at least 25 games out of the overall schedule.

To me, that's a rotation player to me. That's enough time to impact a game and to have a meaningful role. Those guys would be a third center, like the year we used all three of Fab, Baye and Xmas, or years when we used all four guards, even if the 4th guard was Allen Griffin, Tony Bland or MCW as a frosh.

That third center or 4th guard isn't going to play much in March, but that doesn't mean they didn't contribute, and that they didn't develop as a player in order to be ready to make the jump the next year.

By those standards, if we get White, I think we will play about 9 guys meaningful minutes. If we don't get White, I think it will be 8 1/2 guys.

With White:
PG: Battle 15, Gillon 15, Howard 10
SG: White 25, Battle 15
SF: Lydon 35, White /Battle 5
PF: Roberson 25-30, Moyer/Thompson 10-15
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

Without White:
PG: Gillon 18, Battle 15, Howard 12
SG: Battle: 23, Gillon 17
SF: Lydon 35, Moyer 5
PF: Roberson 25-30, Moyer/Thompson 10-15
C: Coleman 15, Chukwu 20, Thompson 5

I agree with most of it except Thompson, don't see him getting more than 10 minutes a game.

 

[SoBristol]

If we get White (a natural SF), we will see some line-ups similar to those we had this season -- with Lydon playing C or PF. On the perimeter, we have Gillon (or Howard), Battle, and White.. Lydon will come back at 220 lbs and provide inside scoring/defense -- just as he did in March. It is the natural extension of what he did best in our run.
Adding White at SF, and having Lydon inside, will give us a strong, balanced offense, and good ball movement on the perimeter.

 

[IthacaMatt]

I agree with most of it except Thompson, don't see him getting more than 10 minutes a game.

I would have felt the same 6 months ago. But he seems like he has elevated his game the past few months. He might be the wildcard on this team.