Statue of quitters?

[dollarbill44]

The statues would not be an insult to anybody just a tribute to courage. I am for that in all things.

The Confederate Flag means different things to different people as well. The message is in the eye of the beholder and if it is a polarizing issue, a well-meaning tribute can do more harm than good.

If this is truly about courage, as you say, aren't there a lot of other examples that could be paid tribute? How about Glickman? Sadat-Singh? Et al? How courageous was it to actually protest in an era where everybody was protesting?

 

[OrangeinBoston]

The Confederate Flag means different things to different people as well. The message is in the eye of the beholder and if it is a polarizing issue, a well-meaning tribute can do more harm than good.

If this is truly about courage, as you say, aren't there a lot of other examples that could be paid tribute? How about Glickman? Sadat-Singh? Et al? How courageous was it to actually protest in an era where everybody was protesting?

Well, being there at the time, it was very courageous given that the establishment was very happy to tell the police, national guard, etc., to go ahead and shoot unarmed protesters.

 

[Scooch]

This has been brought up as a possibility for the front of the facility.
As you can see from the thread date, I was told about it back in August.
TGD has this as a top choice.

Scooch + OrangeinBoston
Believe me now?

No.

 

[GoSU96]

'Schwartzwalder jerked a thumb at the paper and growled, "Nobody wants to talk about football anymore. All they want to talk about is that. Some young kid I never saw before came into my office today. He asked me about that. I told him that I didn't talk to Communists, draft dodgers, flag burners or people trying to destroy our country."

I'd say that old Ben might have been slightly out of touch with the time.

Good for him.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Good for him.

Don't embarrass yourself.

 

[SWC75]

'Schwartzwalder jerked a thumb at the paper and growled, "Nobody wants to talk about football anymore. All they want to talk about is that. Some young kid I never saw before came into my office today. He asked me about that. I told him that I didn't talk to Communists, draft dodgers, flag burners or people trying to destroy our country."

I'd say that old Ben might have been slightly out of touch with the time.

Here is the next sentence:
The hard slash of mouth dissolved into a soft smile. "He assured me he was none of those things, so I sat down and talked with him. I don't know what's happening anymore. I'm not supposed to be a football coach, I'm supposed to be a sociologist or something."

I recall reading another SI article from that era that said that one of the national civil rights organizations had sent around a memo that their cause needed maximum publicity and that that could be achieved by demonstrating against the local football coach, a prominent person who was a symbol of discipline and the establishment. Looking back now, I've no doubt that there were legitimate complaints. A school that had been so well served by black athletes should have hired a black coach long before it did. The comments on Houston, a southern school, having so much a better situation than Syracuse, after we had integrated the Cotton Bowl and the Sugar Bowl are certainly disappointing.

But there were a number of rebellions against coaches at this time- Lloyd Eaton, Vic Rowan, Dee Andros, etc. and I've always felt they were being orchestrated nationally more than locally. I also recall Syracuse rallying to have their last good season under Ben and that the team, when asked to vote on allowing the suspended players to rejoin the team, voted no on most of them. I think if Ben were overtly racist, we would never have had all the good black players we had or the success they brought and the 1970 team would not have rallied around him. His sentiments about protesters were not unusual for those of his generation or in his profession and were held by many coaches who faced no black rebellion. For those reasons I've always thought there was something contrived and artificial about that rebellion and I've cringed a bit when I've heard those players being honored as "heroes". The idea that they should be a statue dedicated to them rather than Jim Brown or Floyd Little, (who I think should have statues near to Ernie's) or to Schwartzwalder himself, seems inappropriate, to put it mildly. I wonder what Floyd would have to say about it?

 

[Trueblue25]

Oh this.

Why can't we honor a proud moment of our program? Society these days is miserable.

Thanks Obama.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

Oh this.

Why can't we honor a proud moment of our program? Society these days is miserable.

Thanks Obama.

What on earth does Obama have to do with this? Of course SU can honor Schwartzwalder. Who said otherwise?

 

[Trueblue25]

What on earth does Obama have to do with this? Of course SU can honor Schwartzwalder. Who said otherwise?

I say thanks obama whenever i find something wrong in life. Also, I misread the thread by reading the article first and making assumptions.

If the statue is of Schwartzwalder...then great.

 

[OrangeinBoston]

I say thanks obama whenever i find something wrong in life. Also, I misread the thread by reading the article first and making assumptions.

If the statue is of Schwartzwalder...then great.

I understand, I used to say that about Dubya too. Schwartzwalder, Jim Brown, the list goes on, maybe including some of those who took a stand.

 

[Noexcuse]

I say thanks obama whenever i find something wrong in life. Also, I misread the thread by reading the article first and making assumptions.

If the statue is of Schwartzwalder...then great.

Sounds like a reasonable way to approach life . . . . .

 

[PeteCalvin]

This is what they are looking to build a statue for? Really? Couldn't they have found a more divisive issue to celebrate? Maybe they could build a statue of Tommy Kane next... I'm sure that'd piss off more than a few people.

If you put Tommy Kane and Marvin Harrison inside Thunderdome, which one would leave?

 

[FAL]

Why is everybody getting their panties in a wad when we don't even know if the original post is true or not? Could it be true? Maybe. Could some poster have come down with a case of Dude-itis? Maybe that, too. So why not just everybody calm down until the true facts are known? Pure speculation otherwise. Enough already!

 

[KaiserUEO]

If you put Tommy Kane and Marvin Harrison inside Thunderdome, which one would leave?

Harrison.

no contest.

he would own Thunderdome and have it all set up so couldnt lose.

and if things really werent going as planned, somebody on the cage would just shoot kane.

 

[dollarbill44]

Enough already!

Who died and left you moderator?

 

[FAL]

Who died and left you moderator?

The Dude

 

[ForCuseSake]

Harrison.

he would own Thunderdome and have it all set up so couldnt lose.

and if things really werent going as planned, somebody on the cage would just shoot kane.

How can you say he'd "own Thunderdome" and NOT call him Master Blaster?

Oh Lord

 

[OttoMets]

Here is the next sentence:
The hard slash of mouth dissolved into a soft smile. "He assured me he was none of those things, so I sat down and talked with him. I don't know what's happening anymore. I'm not supposed to be a football coach, I'm supposed to be a sociologist or something."

I recall reading another SI article from that era that said that one of the national civil rights organizations had sent around a memo that their cause needed maximum publicity and that that could be achieved by demonstrating against the local football coach, a prominent person who was a symbol of discipline and the establishment. Looking back now, I've no doubt that there were legitimate complaints. A school that had been so well served by black athletes should have hired a black coach long before it did. The comments on Houston, a southern school, having so much a better situation than Syracuse, after we had integrated the Cotton Bowl and the Sugar Bowl are certainly disappointing.

But there were a number of rebellions against coaches at this time- Lloyd Eaton, Vic Rowan, Dee Andros, etc. and I've always felt they were being orchestrated nationally more than locally. I also recall Syracuse rallying to have their last good season under Ben and that the team, when asked to vote on allowing the suspended players to rejoin the team, voted no on most of them. I think if Ben were overtly racist, we would never have had all the good black players we had or the success they brought and the 1970 team would not have rallied around him. His sentiments about protesters were not unusual for those of his generation or in his profession and were held by many coaches who faced no black rebellion. For those reasons I've always thought there was something contrived and artificial about that rebellion and I've cringed a bit when I've heard those players being honored as "heroes". The idea that they should be a statue dedicated to them rather than Jim Brown or Floyd Little, (who I think should have statues near to Ernie's) or to Schwartzwalder himself, seems inappropriate, to put it mildly. I wonder what Floyd would have to say about it?

The players surely weren't heroes, but there wasn't anything contrived about the situation. Perhaps rebellions at other schools were instigated by outside organizations, but the Syracuse walk-out involved a group of players who felt they were mistreated and left the team. Nothing more, nothing less.

The idea that they deserve a statue strikes me as strange, but the dismissive remarks by some of the usual suspects on here (not you, SWC) are equally wrong-headed to the other extreme.

 

[kirbivore]

they should honor them by starting the project then quitting halfway through

 

[Crusty]

The Confederate Flag means different things to different people as well. The message is in the eye of the beholder and if it is a polarizing issue, a well-meaning tribute can do more harm than good.

If this is truly about courage, as you say, aren't there a lot of other examples that could be paid tribute? How about Glickman? Sadat-Singh? Et al? How courageous was it to actually protest in an era where everybody was protesting?

Well I thought somebody would bring that up. The Stars and Bars offends people for obvious reasons. Just who is being offended by a tribute to civil rights protests?

Bear in mind that something offends someone somewhere all the time. Barry Goldwater once said, "Give me 15 minutes and I'll find you a constituency for redheaded left-handed pitchers!"

To my knowledge Glickman? Sadat-Singh? Et al? had nothing to do with SU football.

Not everyone was protesting for civil rights at the time - as a matter of fact a lot of folks just went to Canada to avoid the draft. When you are alone against the multitudes courage is certainly required. People were getting beaten and killed and denied employment and retaliated against in many other ways.

It is a part of SU football and I would rather recognize it for what it was than try to pretend it did not happen. The players were right and old Ben was simply wrong. There are reasons of course but even heroes can be wrong - just watch John McCain.

 

[CuseLegacy]

At the time I was upset with the protest but now I understand their point of view. Jim Brown, Ernie Davis, Floyd Little and others put up with incredible racism in their day. Growing up in CNY, I didn't know it was happenning. Racism was not as much in your face in CNY as it was in the South but it was there in more subtle forms. I was one of 4 white kids on a HS BB team of 12. Things seemed OK to me but I went home to a different part of town than the black kids. Racism is just a fact of our national history.

The statues would not be so much a tribute to the individuals involved, The statues memorialize our rising above that period in our history and if it gives our black community a nod of respect then I am for it. The Woolworth Lunch Counter in Greensboro is now a museum and historical landmark - the world did not end. Nobody remembers the individuals just the event.

The statues would not be an insult to anybody just a tribute to courage. I am for that in all things.

Many of those NC A&T students who protested at the Woolworth lunch counter are still active in the Greensboro community, so no they have not been forgotten. And the type of racism that they experienced in the south can not be compared to anything experienced by a college football player on scholarship at a northern university.
Honestly I would prefer to see statues of players erected in front the IPF, if it happens, because of the players accomplishments on the football field, not because of political action.
Besides you only need to look at the current make-up of the coaching staff to see that this tribute has been accomplished in deed rather than "statuary".

 

[OrangeAl]

It is a part of SU football and I would rather recognize it for what it was than try to pretend it did not happen. The players were right and old Ben was simply wrong. There are reasons of course but even heroes can be wrong - just watch John McCain.

How does that add to the game-day experience? It would be like Notre Dame building a statue of a scissors jack.

 

[Crusty]

How does that add to the game-day experience? It would be like Notre Dame building a statue of a scissors jack.

No, it would like ND honoring Declan Sullivan. And what has game day experience have to do with this? It's a practice facility.

 

[Townie72]

Well I thought somebody would bring that up. The Stars and Bars offends people for obvious reasons. Just who is being offended by a tribute to civil rights protests?

Bear in mind that something offends someone somewhere all the time. Barry Goldwater once said, "Give me 15 minutes and I'll find you a constituency for redheaded left-handed pitchers!"

To my knowledge Glickman? Sadat-Singh? Et al? had nothing to do with SU football.

Not everyone was protesting for civil rights at the time - as a matter of fact a lot of folks just went to Canada to avoid the draft. When you are alone against the multitudes courage is certainly required. People were getting beaten and killed and denied employment and retaliated against in many other ways.

It is a part of SU football and I would rather recognize it for what it was than try to pretend it did not happen. The players were right and old Ben was simply wrong. There are reasons of course but even heroes can be wrong - just watch John McCain.

I was on campus at the time.

Thank goodness you cleared the matter up by declaring the players were right and Ben was wrong. (That was sarcasm, in case you missed it.)

How is "Ben won't let us play QB" a civil rights issue anyway?

There were no winners in this. The players threw away their football careers and their scholarships so they could emulate John Carlos.

It set the SU football program back on its heels for a good ten years.

I didn't see anyone in this that was clearly wrong or clearly right.

Erecting a statue to these guys is a monumentally stupid idea as it will offend a large sub-segment of the fan base.

 

[Crusty]

I was on campus at the time.

Thank goodness you cleared the matter up by declaring the players were right and Ben was wrong. (That was sarcasm, in case you missed it.)

How is "Ben won't let us play QB" a civil rights issue anyway?

There were no winners in this. The players threw away their football careers and their scholarships so they could emulate John Carlos.

It set the SU football program back on its heels for a good ten years.

I didn't see anyone in this that was clearly wrong or clearly right.

Erecting a statue to these guys is a monumentally stupid idea as it will offend a large sub-segment of the fan base.

Well, that's what makes markets. Everyone has a view.