SU after Boeheim

[HoustonCuse]

"House of Cards"? Hopkins as the glue that holds the thing together?

The recent swoon as a product of rumors of Hopkins potentially leaving?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And, who knows, maybe you are right.

But, I'd say this opinion is way outside of mainstream thought.

Let me explain:

House of Cards: the recent stretch of insane scandal that could have distracted the team to the point of non-functioning. Somebody had to keep the structure sound from an emotional and mental point of view. While Boeheim was freaking out in press conferences and bullying potential abuse victims, Hopkins was behind the scenes keeping the team focused (for example).

Hopkins as the Glue Guy: I just don't think there is any doubt about this. Scoop would have been a lost cause with Hopkins (as he has said himself) and without Scoop, Dion would have gone elsewhere. There are many other instances of Hopkins being the "good guy" who keeps guys motivated when they are getting the humiliating 1 minute start and then hook, or MCW last year getting very little time. JB has no time or interest in dealing with these emotional concerns - he has said so himself. It's Hopkins.

Swoon: Given how close these players are to Hopkins - the guy who recruited most of them and is the rock upon which they lean for support a lot during the tough times of their careers, would it be surprising that in all the turmoil of the past few years, the one thing that would really shake them is the thought of losing Hop, or of Hop losing faith and thus wanting to leave (however it looks to them). Like I said, I know this is speculation and there are clearly basketball skills reasons for the swoon as well, but it was a thought. The performance has certainly been out of the ordinary lately and the timeframe has coincided with Hopkins' potential move.

I don't think I'm out in left field, as you suggest, with respect to Mike's impact on the health and functioning of the player/personnel in this program.

 

[OttoMets]

The problem we will have is we won't be able to pay a coach like Izzo or Crean. I don't see us getting an already established "big name", because for the most part almost all would need to take a pay cut.

And I have to disagree. If Brad Stevens walked into any gym in the country I am willing to bet almost all of the top 100 players would know who he is.

Yeah, very unlikely we're getting a big-name coach. They all make huge money in their current positions.

 

[HoustonCuse]

Yeah, very unlikely we're getting a big-name coach. They all make huge money in their current positions.

Exactly why I think Hopkins is the best choice. People seem to think it is a choice of Hopkins or Bill Self or similar.

 

[OttoMets]

Exactly why I think Hopkins is the best choice. People seem to think it is a choice of Hopkins or Bill Self or similar.

Agree. We could do better, but we could also do a lot worse. It's a flip of a coin.

 

[anomander]

I think you're defeating YOUR own argument when you quote people like Eidlen.

JB's not a god. Nor is he infallible. He's a guy who's spent his whole career at one school and turned their basketball program into an elite program.

Surely if we've been elite since the mid 80's, we won't stop being so just because JB decides to hit the links, right?

Have some more faith in the program that JB's built.

I do. I am actually saying in other posts how we will be more then fine. All I am saying here is we are at an elite level because of JB (which i feel we are on the same page). I just felt you credited Melo, more then JB.

 

[Quazzum69]

Roy Williams? Rick Pitino?

Williams has 2 national titles, and was beaten by JB in 2003 when he had the more talented team.

Pitino? Really? He has 1 in 1998, and hasn't done much since.

I can't even tell if your a Syracuse fan by the tone of a lot of your posts, but if you are you are the perfect example of the inferiority complex a lot of Syracuse fans have.

Yes, he was beaten by Boeheim in 2003, but he's had three final fours and 2 championships since then. Pitino has 42 tournament wins (in 16 tournaments) since 1985 while Boeheim has 43 (in 23 tournaments). Since that championship, Pitino's had two FFs and two Elite Eights.

 

[HakAttack]

I do. I am actually saying in other posts how we will be more then fine. All I am saying here is we are at an elite level because of JB (which i feel we are on the same page). I just felt you credited Melo, more then JB.

Fair enough. I agree with you in terms of us being more than fine. I'm only 27, and am part of the class of 07', so I wasn't privileged to see JB before the mid 00's.

For me, the 03' NC is Melo's NC, and sort of a lifetime achievement award for JB. To me, JB's been more about sustained greatness over time rather than elite excellence. He's not on the level of Izzo, Calhoun, Calipari, etc, because he's measured by a different stick. He's off the charts with other achievements, (20+ win season, years in a row of being in postseason play, top 25, etc). However, he's not at the top of the heap in terms of FFs and NCs.

That's just my personal opinion.

 

[anomander]

Yes, he was beaten by Boeheim in 2003, but he's had three final fours and 2 championships since then. Pitino has 42 tournament wins (in 16 tournaments) since 1985 while Boeheim has 43 (in 23 tournaments). Since that championship, Pitino's had two FFs and two Elite Eights.

So Pitino is clearly better because he advanced 1 round further in the ncaa tournament? JB has 3 BE championships and 2 BET championships, 1 more BE championship, and the same amount of BET titles. Williams has cleaned up, but he has also done it at 2 blue blood programs.

 

[Quazzum69]

So Pitino is clearly better because he advanced 1 round further in the ncaa tournament? JB has 3 BE championships and 2 BET championships, 1 more BE championship, and the same amount of BET titles. Williams has cleaned up, but he has also done it at 2 blue blood programs.

So anyone could do it at a blue blood program then? There's a reason the best coaches are coaching the best programs - they're the best coaches! The cream rises to the top, my friend. If you are one of the best 5 coaches in the country, you either turn your program into elite (Coach K at Duke, Calhoun at UConn, to some exent Boeheim at Syracuse) or you get hired at a school where it's already been done and you're just continuing the tradition (Bill Self, Roy Williams, John Calipari).

Syracuse and Boeheim are absolutely top-ten in the past few decades. On the grand scheme of things, it's remarkable what he's achieved. But when you're talking about top-five "elite" schools and coaches, I don't think he makes the cut and that's ok. I don't lose any sleep at night.

 

[realorange]

Izzo has no reason to leave Michigan St. Crean------God help us if we bring this loose cannon to Syracuse. His downside goes far beyond what a national audience witnessed this past weekend. I have a coaching friend who knew him at Marquette and has zero good to say about him.
Hopkins is still my choice and right now the most logical one.

 

[Townie72]

Izzo has no reason to leave Michigan St. Crean------God help us if we bring this loose cannon to Syracuse. His downside goes far beyond what a national audience witnessed this past weekend. I have a coaching friend who knew him at Marquette and has zero good to say about him.
Hopkins is still my choice and right now the most logical one.

Seems like Hopkins is the low risk choice. He knows how the program works currently. He's not going to start doing a major make-over which could take us in any direction.

And we have a pretty good track record in basketball and lacrosse and football with SU grads at the helm (assuming you think Marrone was a success)

 

[ROCorange]

this isn't trying to be argumentative, but just out of curiosity what 5 teams would you have ahead of syracuse? i would think using the last 10 years to determine a programs current standing would be pretty fair.

I'm usually on the optimistic side of things on the eliteness of syracuse debate, but if the classification is the last 10 years, it gets pretty tricky. Unfortunately, in about a month, "the last 10 years" will no longer include our championship. In that case, we've had one elite eight, a few sweet sixteens, a few early upsets and a few NITs. I don't have the patience to check back, but I'm guessing that theres 5 schools with a better tournament resume.

 

[ROCorange]

"House of Cards"? Hopkins as the glue that holds the thing together?

The recent swoon as a product of rumors of Hopkins potentially leaving?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. And, who knows, maybe you are right.

But, I'd say this opinion is way outside of mainstream thought.

Thank you for the most diplomatic disagreement in the history of internet message boards

 

[Czar]

We can definitely afford to pay coaches higher than we pay Boeheim. That isn't even a question, if Marquette can spend more than us, we can spend way more than Marquette.

 

[SBU72]

I will give Boeheim credit for being incredible consistent but I think the Dome / Big East and the advent of ESPN and college basketball on tv has alot to do with that. Having said that, the man is not a god; he is 132 - 135 vs. top 25 teams (49.8%). If you take away the 12 cupcakes at the begining of each season (37-0 vs. Colgate); what would his record look like. He is Lou Henson with a National Championship. He is a very good coach but he is not irreplacable.

Old arguement. Look at Coach K and his 954 wins. First of all it includes 73 wins at Army. So thats 881 at Duke. But as people say, everybody plays cupcake OOC. In the ACC, Coach K's percentages drop from 78.8% for all games to 69.5%. JB goes from overall of 74.7% to 65.7%. About the same drop. Without going back and checking all the OOC schedules for "quality" and using just conference games, JB has maintained the same level of competence. By the way, check the Duke OOC for 2013. Who the heck is Elon?

 

[Townie72]

Old arguement. Look at Coach K and his 954 wins. First of all it includes 73 wins at Army. So thats 881 at Duke. But as people say, everybody plays cupcake OOC. In the ACC, Coach K's percentages drop from 78.8% for all games to 69.5%. JB goes from overall of 74.7% to 65.7%. About the same drop. Without going back and checking all the OOC schedules for "quality" and using just conference games, JB has maintained the same level of competence. By the way, check the Duke OOC for 2013. Who the heck is Elon?

Good analysis.

Elon is a small school in North Carolina. In the DC area, kids go there when they don't get into what they thought were their safety schools. It's the ultimate safety school ... the end of the academic line.

If I'm not mistaken, its been one of Georgetown's favorite early season punching bags for years.

 

[cap2nine]

I’m quite surprised at the lack of faith and the stubborn reluctance to believe that the SU program will continue to thrive without JB as the head coach. Topics like this often lead to accusations of blaspheme against any proponent of new leadership on the staff. Boeheim's records and credentials speak volumes about his coaching ability, his dedication to the sport, the University and the community. His commitment to the SU basketball program will never be duplicated by any other coach at any other school. But will he coach forever? Obviously not. So when is it ok to begin talking about the inevitable?

I get the impression that some loyal SU and Boeheim supporters feel that it would be a slight to Jim’s accomplishments if there is success after he’s gone or that his legacy would somehow be diminished if his successor continues or even improves upon Syracuse basketball tradition.

The way I see it Orange basketball simply would not exist, at an elite level, without the unparalleled dedication of James Arthur Boeheim but the cathedral he helped build will be left in extremely capable hands with Hop. I personally fear that JB may linger too long, lose Mike to another program and potentially end an amazing career on a low note rather than a high.

The day is coming, with absolute certainty, when our Orange will have a new Commander-In-Chief. No disrespect to the living legend of Coach Boeheim but sooner, at this point, is probably better than later.

A- 20%
B- 70%
C- 9%
D- 1%

 

[djdan]

But if Boeheim keeps floundering...

Keeps floundering. Stuff like this cracks me up.

 

[Hoboken Cuse]

Old arguement. Look at Coach K and his 954 wins. First of all it includes 73 wins at Army. So thats 881 at Duke. But as people say, everybody plays cupcake OOC. In the ACC, Coach K's percentages drop from 78.8% for all games to 69.5%. JB goes from overall of 74.7% to 65.7%. About the same drop. Without going back and checking all the OOC schedules for "quality" and using just conference games, JB has maintained the same level of competence. By the way, check the Duke OOC for 2013. Who the heck is Elon?

Lol. Coach K is a horrible comp if your trying to prove JB's greatness as Coach K has gone to 11 FF and won 4 NC. I did check out Duke's OCC - they played #3 (at the time) UK, #2 Louisville, and #4 OSU all before the month of December and he won all 3. Elon in not bad this year as the reached the Big South Conference Championship.

 

[SBU72]

Lol. Coach K is a horrible comp if your trying to prove JB's greatness as Coach K has gone to 11 FF and won 4 NC. I did check out Duke's OCC - they played #3 (at the time) UK, #2 Louisville, and #4 OSU all before the month of December and he won all 3. Elon in not bad this year as the reached the Big South Conference Championship.

By checking out the out of conference games, I didn't necessarily mena this years but yes I know they played some highly ranked teams. I meant of the years. It seems that SU's OOC rateing have usually been pretty good, every bit as good as Dukes. to discard SU's win streak agains one lowly team was an injustice because I'm sure you can find a similar one (or a series of them) that DUke played.

 

[sdhusky]

I am shocked at the high confidence that some have in the future of the SU basketball program post-Boeheim.

Of course if you have the negative view of JB’s capabilities and judgment that many on this forum appear to have, I guess it’s easy to be confident. After all, how hard will it be to replace this stubborn fool, who fails to recruit the right kind of players, doesn’t develop the players he has and frequently has the wrong players on the court. Shouldn’t be hard to replace a guy with this many failings.

Now I’m not sure what’s going to happen, so I thought it might be useful to lay out the range of possibilities and see what the forum thinks will happen by assigning PROBABILITIES to each. If you give a selection a “0%” it means that this has Zero chance of occurring. That it’s impossible. If you give something a 100% score, it means that there is zero chance it won’t happen.

Here’s the continuum:
A. The program takes off and moves up to be a Top 5 regular
B. The program stays at the same level in terms of National ranking, NCAA performance, etc. (This could include a transitional period in which the program is down slightly as the new coach puts in his system and gets his recruits in)
C. The program goes into a decline in which every few years we are in the Top 20. We become a Maryland or a Wake Forest.
D. The program goes into a serious decline and ends up as a Seton Hall.

My guess would be: A – 5%, B – 50%, C- 40%, D-5%. I could be talked into giving B a lower % and C a higher one.

a) 5% -

b) 20%

c) 50% - for 5 years and then rinse, repeat

d) 25% for 3 years and then rinse, repeat

Eventually will get to a or b, but it might take 3 or 5 or 8 or 10 years and going through a 2 or 3 coaches.

 

[ORRange]

a) 5% -

b) 20%

c) 50% - for 5 years and then rinse, repeat

d) 25% for 3 years and then rinse, repeat

Eventually will get to a or b, but it might take 3 or 5 or 8 or 10 years and going through a 2 or 3 coaches.

Hey Sandusky, stay out of the shower. That behavior is effecting your brain. 25% for D, you must be thinking of your beloved Huskies in the Colonial.

 

[sdhusky]

Hey Sandusky, stay out of the shower. That behavior is effecting your brain. 25% for D, you must be thinking of your beloved Huskies in the Colonial.

UNC hit a couple of D's before they got an b.

Indiana hit a couple of D's.

UCLA has hit D's.

I don't think SU is immune to a bad hire (see GROB), but will eventually get it right.

I am just saying there is a 25% chance it will mess up the first hire.