SU Depth = Mirage

[pfister1]

You are correct to point out that there are currently only 4 offensive threats among those 7.5 guys, and I will go further and note that only 2 of them (Joseph and Jardine) can create their own offense.

So are you not counting Dion as an offensive threat, because he can certainly create his own offense.

 

[Bornorange]

The team has the potential to be deep. That is good enough. The team can put nine athletes out there.
The team has the depth if and when it needs it.

 

[Nicknack]

No. I don't.

There. On the record.

Are we winning? Yes. Is that good? Yes. Do we seem to be playing as well as we were earlier in the season? No.

44cuse

That is really what prompted the thread in the first place. While I still believe we have a good squad and one that could still regain some or even a lot of its luster, I just find it disappointing to be at this point. We have only one loss but we have gotten worse over the course of the year, in many ways. What is crazy is that we're still good enough to beat teams playing the way we are. However, it is my opinion that the current level of play just won't get it done in the NCAA's, except for maybe the first two (possibly three games). Those games we can probably win because of our experience, resilience and talent. However, those things can only take us so far and our weaknesses will be clearly exposed when we play a contender unless we can right the ship.

 

[Nicknack]

The team has the potential to be deep. That is good enough. The team can put nine athletes out there.
The team has the depth if and when it needs it.

How do you figure? Xmas is a bench player who basically gives us very little, MCW isn't playing apparently, Keita is okay but quite limited, and James forgot how to shoot. If you look at our bench (not factoring in CJ because he is really the starter), we have Dion and Keita. That doesn't seem "good enough" to me, UNLESS James can get it going and Dion can find his old self which I certainly hope happens.

 

[moqui]

So are you not counting Dion as an offensive threat, because he can certainly create his own offense.

as I noted in the first sentence, he is mired in a deep slump (.267 from three and .366 overall for the last 9 games), so at the moment, there are only two. Although, you could argue that Dion can create his own shots, he just can't convert them right now.

 

[44cuse]

So are you not counting Dion as an offensive threat, because he can certainly create his own offense.

Dion is not an offensive threat right now. He's in a major rut. He's got the energy, but the conversion metrics required to be considered a threat are not there.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

That is really what prompted the thread in the first place. While I still believe we have a good squad and one that could still regain some or even a lot of its luster, I just find it disappointing to be at this point. We have only one loss but we have gotten worse over the course of the year, in many ways. What is crazy is that we're still good enough to beat teams playing the way we are. However, it is my opinion that the current level of play just won't get it done in the NCAA's, except for maybe the first two (possibly three games). Those games we can probably win because of our experience, resilience and talent. However, those things can only take us so far and our weaknesses will be clearly exposed when we play a contender unless we can right the ship.

I think many would argue that we are playing better teams right now. RF pointed to something in an earlier thread about "The Gauntlet" that we just ran and may (most?) folks being happy if we came out with 1 loss. We came out with no losses. It's a weird thing and I'm not really sure I would categorize/describe it. And the ways I would do it, you get skewered on this board.

But there is no way anyone can tell me we are playing as well now (or with as much energy, enthusiasm, emotion) as we were earlier on. This team had some zip, pep, balls, whatever you want to call it earlier on that seems to be missing now.

This is just my opinion and I have no inside information on this either way. But for some reason I have this feeling that JB knows this and is allowing the team to play at this pace/style because he knows we can turn teams over and score in transition. And there are three primary ways to do that:

1. Trap out of the zone
2. Own the defensive glass
3. Press

Again, I could be completely wrong, but it just feels to me like JB is going to unleash #3 because he knows the impact it will have on tempo via transition buckets. Kind of like letting it rip.

I firmly believe we are the 2nd (if not the best) team in the country. We just aren't playing like it right now.

44cuse

 

[44cuse]

I guess it depends on what games you look at. And I have no idea how you compare them accurately. How about Yukon game? Was that better than Stanford?

They're hard to compare. That is very true. And that's where it becomes subjective (to a certain extent) and down to what each individual sees. To me personally, there is less energy on the court. Less fun as well.

44cuse

 

[CorduroyG]

The reason our "depth" still gets talked about so much by the "experts" is because cj and dion come off the bench. CJ throws 1 down, dion breaks down the defense for an and 1, the announcers can gush "this is why syracuse is so deep, these guys are coming off the bench!" Or as the announcer said during the rutgers game "this syracuse team comes at you in waves" lol

 

[jec1521]

All of our guys will never be all clicking at the same time. We would blow teams out by 50 if that were the case. But, with the depth that we have, any of those guys could go off and lead us to a win, including Southerland. In other words, we have more players that could score 20 in a game than anyone else in the country, and it usually only takes one to win. That alone makes us dangerous.

 

[suloyalfan]

i guess my problem is that i keeping hearing how 6 players have now "elevated" themselves but yet the team as a whole seems to be playing worse. do you really think we're playing better now than we were early this season ?

We may not be playing as good as we were during earlier stretches in the season, yet we keep winning. What does that say about the team? Before we got into this last stretch of games where our schedule was so back loaded a large percentage of people on this forum were hemming and hawing about how bad it was going to turn out. So far, we haven't lost ANY of those games. With UCONN and Louisville left before the BET, it's certainly possible that we could still drop one or two, but the likelihood is getting smaller that we'll have a big season ending swoon.

 

[suloyalfan]

All of our guys will never be all clicking at the same time. We would blow teams out by 50 if that were the case. But, with the depth that we have, any of those guys could go off and lead us to a win, including Southerland. In other words, we have more players that could score 20 in a game than anyone else in the country, and it usually only takes one to win. That alone makes us dangerous.

Exactly... Southerland, MCW, Fair, and Waiters all coming off the bench? I think that's quite a stable of talent to have waiting in the wings to contribute. Keita is also very long and athletic, but just needs to put on some weight to handle the big bodies down low... he has added quality minutes this season, just not many lately. That doesn't mean he isn't capable.

With Scoop, Triche, Joseph, Waiters, Fair, Melo, Southerland, and MCW all showing moments of taking over games this season, that gives SU 8 players that can step up at any time and deliver. I, for one, call that impressive depth regardless of the recent performances. When you have so many high quality players it increases your chances to win every game regardless of who is having a good game or not.

 

[IthacaMatt]

i guess my problem is that i keeping hearing how 6 players have now "elevated" themselves but yet the team as a whole seems to be playing worse.do you really think we're playing better now than we were early this season ?

no, of course not. we need to get Dion and James scoring again. other than that, we're not doing so bad, although I'd like to see more steals out of the top of the zone. I like that JB went to the press pro-actively in recent games where the pace was too slow and we weren't scoring. That's a huge change from recent years, where he only did it out of desperation, after we'd fallen behind by 15+ points.

 

[Knicks411]

Exactly... Southerland, MCW, Fair, and Waiters all coming off the bench? I think that's quite a stable of talent to have waiting in the wings to contribute.

Well yes, the depth looks better when you have a starter (Fair) coming off the bench. MCW isn't going to play any meaningful minutes, Keita is just a guy to give fouls, and Southerland hasn't made a shot in about 3 months.

 

[pfister1]

Well yes, the depth looks better when you have a starter (Fair) coming off the bench. MCW isn't going to play any meaningful minutes, Keita is just a guy to give fouls, and Southerland hasn't made a shot in about 3 months.

I think if we go more than one game deep into the BET MCW will resurface again. My recollection without looking it up, is that JB's bench gets deeper in NY due to the back to back games. It will then be up to him to turn that opportunity into more playing time beyond just being someone who can eat some minutes because the primary rotation players are overworked - which is where he seems to be with JB right now.

 

[Knicks411]

I think if we go more than one game deep into the BET MCW will resurface again. My recollection without looking it up, is that JB's bench gets deeper in NY due to the back to back games. It will then be up to him to turn that opportunity into more playing time beyond just being someone who can eat some minutes because the primary rotation players are overworked - which is where he seems to be with JB right now.

That's entirely possible; I meant more in the NCAA tournament. (It's also hard to draw a parallel between other years anyway, MCW is probably the best 4th guard we have had in a while).

But I don't see MCW forcing his way into the rotation, which is fine. He's a freshmen, there are 3 talented players ahead of him in the rotation. I still think he is going to be a hell of a player.

 

[pfister1]

That's entirely possible; I meant more in the NCAA tournament. (It's also hard to draw a parallel between other years anyway, MCW is probably the best 4th guard we have had in a while).

But I don't see MCW forcing his way into the rotation, which is fine. He's a freshmen, there are 3 talented players ahead of him in the rotation. I still think he is going to be a hell of a player.

I think that is the big question...do we need a four guard rotation right now? Seems like JB thinks not, because MCW's play really hasn't been all that bad. I think that JB doesn't want to have to try to find playing time for 4 guards and MCW hasn't consistently given us something that the other 3 aren't already providing therefore he's odd man out of the 3 guard rotation. If he had come out and hit a consistently high percentage from 3, he might have forced himself into the rotation because that really is something we could use. In that case JB would have had to make a decision between putting him into the 3 guard rotation in place of one of the other 3 or expanding it to a 4 guard rotation... MCW hasn't forced him to do that.

 

[Nicknack]

I'm not losing any sleep over MCW sitting on the bench for the remainder of the year. However, I don't really get it. He was being used sparingly anyway and it looked to me like he was slowly getting better. He was finally starting to take a shot and showed that he could contribute at times. I'm not really sure what one would have expected MCW to do with the minutes that he got - was he really supposed to do more? I thought he played with composure and was a nice, fresh body to come off the bench when we were in need. With a disappearing act that sometimes Triche can be and Dion who isn't playing nearly the same as earlier in the year, I would like to have MCW in the rotation just to see if he could come in and contribute when one of those guys are off instead of having to live with them because of the smaller rotation.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

I'm not losing any sleep over MCW sitting on the bench for the remainder of the year. However, I don't really get it. He was being used sparingly anyway and it looked to me like he was slowly getting better. He was finally starting to take a shot and showed that he could contribute at times. I'm not really sure what one would have expected MCW to do with the minutes that he got - was he really supposed to do more? I thought he played with composure and was a nice, fresh body to come off the bench when we were in need. With a disappearing act that sometimes Triche can be and Dion who isn't playing nearly the same as earlier in the year, I would like to have MCW in the rotation just to see if he could come in and contribute when one of those guys are off instead of having to live with them because of the smaller rotation.

I would love to see MCW get time. I like watching players develop. But that's what it is for me, developmental time. I am still hoping that MCW will get minutes at UConn, at least in the 1st half. And good minutes in the BET, where hopefully he can get some run for several games. That would be for JB, a less pressurized, and smart way to get him some minutes and see if he can be used in the NCAAT.

I think MCW would really have to show a couple of things in the BET to have a shot at any minutes in the NCAAT. He would need to showcase his 3 pt shot and not turn the ball over. I thought his 3 ptr looked good against St Johns. But his handle is suspect and if he is getting pickpocketed in practice the risk of having him out there is not worth it. He is a tall freshman guard with a slightly high dribble.

The only way I can see to use an advantage in talent discrepancy between teams 4th guards is to press (MCW has got to be the best 4th guard in the country - and I say that as an SU fan by doing absolutely no analysis). JB is hesitant to press a lot because of the possible foul pressure on Fab. I would like to see JB work around that by putting in BMK (and maybe a couple of times with Rak), and maybe JS, and MCW and press, press, press. Just tire out the other team. And if we are pressing them, it is unlikely that the opposition would press back (a potential weakness for MCW) because that would just exert tremendous energy on a team, while we are resting several of our starters.

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

Right, it's great fodder for the talking heads, but doesn't necessarily correlate with winning or losing. I think depth is becoming less and less important for this team. First, we have 7 or 8 guys that don't typically get into a lot of foul trouble, therefore the depth isn't typically needed because of fouls. Our most foul prone starter - Melo - has a clear backup (Keita) that gets regular minutes. Second, no one seems to want to let us run, games are being played at a much slower tempo, so for that reason fatigue shouldn't be a big issue either. If we need to press for an extended period and cause faitgue because guys are exerting a lot of energy in the press, JB has an extra guard and extra forward he can work in to give guys a blow.

Energy and effort are needed for defense. When teams slow the pace to a crawl and make us play defense for 30 seconds at a time per possession, that's where the fatigue sets in. Rebounding becomes an issue in these cases. I've never met or coached a player that no matter how tired, was able to fill the lanes on a fast break. Fatigue in many ways is more of an issue in grind it out games. I understand and agree on the full out press situations, especially when it is implemented because of you are losing.

 

[pfister1]

Energy and effort are needed for defense. When teams slow the pace to a crawl and make us play defense for 30 seconds at a time per possession, that's where the fatigue sets in. Rebounding becomes an issue in these cases. I've never met or coached a player that no matter how tired, was able to fill the lanes on a fast break. Fatigue in many ways is more of an issue in grind it out games. I understand and agree on the full out press situations, especially when it is implemented because of you are losing.

I am coming around to the idea that we are a poor rebounding team because we have 5 guys on the front line that are finesse guys and don't particularly like to bang or try to push the other guy out of the way. To get and win position in the lane you have to like contact to a certain degree. If you are always trying to get to the board by going around the other player rather than pushing him out of the way to get better position or absorbing some blows to hold your position you aren't going to rebound well. I don't think we have a guy that is really willing to mix it up like that like Rick was able to do last year.