SU's All-Pros

[SWC75]

I was watching Steve Gregory make a play for the Patriots in today’s game against the Saints and I suddenly got the idea of naming an All-Pro team for past and present SU players: which Syracuse players have been the best at each position based on their NFL careers? Would Gregory make that team?


I decided that my team would consist of the classic positions from NFL as I knew it growing up. You can argue that something else is better but I like the balance of having a quarterback, a halfback, a fullback, a flanker and split end, a tight end and five interior linemen on offense. Similarly, I prefer a 4-3 defense with two safeties and 2 cornerbacks. I’ll also have a place-kicker, a punter two kick-off returners and a punt returner. I’m only picking a first team and no player can have more than one position. I used this listing as my guide:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/colleges/syracuse/

API means All-Pro. PB means they made the Pro Bowl. ST is supposed to mean years as a “primary starter but this makes no sense: the very first guy, Faye Abbott, played from 1921-29 and had an ST of 23. Some of the others do compute: Gary Anderson played from 1982-2004 and an ST of 23. Jim Brown played from 1957-65 and has an ST of 9. I don’t know what to make of that so I ignored that column. I did pay attention to the “CarAV” column, which is an estimate of a player’s career value but I was not a slave to it. If you click on the player’s name you can find out if they played left or right tackle, guard, end, linebacker or cornerback. . The safeties will switch depending on the offensive alignment so I just picked the two best ones, (and Gregory did not make the cut).


Here is what I came up with:

FB- Jim Brown
HB- Floyd Little
FL- Art Monk
QB- Donovan McNabb
SE- Marvin Harrison
TE- John Mackey

RT- John Brown
RG- Walt Sweeney
C- Jim Ringo
LG- Craig Wolfley
LT- Stan Walters

K- Gary Anderson
P- Tom Gilburg
KOR- Kevin Johnson, Kirby Dar Dar
PR- Tommy Myers

RE- Dwight Freeney
RT- Art Thoms
LT- Ken Clarke
LE- Rob Burnett

RIB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Jim Cheyunski
LLB- Terry Wooden

RCB- Carl Karilivacz
SS- Donovin Darius
FS- Jim Ridlon
LCB- Will Allen

Comment: Compared to some other schools, I’m sure the offensive line is mediocre, (although Ringo and Sweeney were very good). Anderson was the NFL’s all-time leading scorer at one time. Gilberg averaged 41.4 yards per punt, (Pat O’Neill was only 39.3). Freeney’s all-time great but the other D-linemen are not. The linebackers are OK at best. The safeties are good but the cornerbacks are below average compared to a lot of schools.


But try to beat that first group.


(One guy I did not use was Otis Wilson, a linebacker for the ’85 Bears. He flunked out of SU after playing briefly and alter claimed in article that he’s been the MVP of SU’s 1975 team. That was actually another linebacker, Ray Preston. The guy became a good NFL player but was a footnote in Syracuse history and a liar to boot.)

 

[Doctor44]

Great list - hard not to include guys like darryl johnston as FB (though you cant leave ernie davis or jim brown off, Art monk, arthur jones

 

[SWC75]

Great list - hard not to include guys like darryl johnston as FB (though you cant leave ernie davis or jim brown off, Art monk, arthur jones

You can leave out Ernie because he never played. And you can leave out Moose because Jim Brown was a fullback. Jones may make the list someday but he's just getting started. His "carrer value" per the list is only 6 at this point. Art Thoms was 40 and Ken Clarke 56. Art Monk is on my team.

 

[kcsu]

Larry Czonka has to be on the team. Ernie is on the team as well. On D Joe Erman needs to make it

 

[sufandu]

The only thing I'd switch would be Ismail for Dar Dar at KOR. He was a good returner for Minnesota when he first entered the league. It's touch not seeing Czonka on the list, but you can't put him over Jim Brown. Not seeing Rob Moore is tough too, but Monk and Harrison did have better careers. I always wondered what Moore may have done had he played for a good team for a long time.

 

[OrangePA]

Wasn't Tom Myers an All-Pro safety.

Csonka?

Joe Ehrmann?

Jim Collins?

 

[baggerbob]

Would have Tebucky Jones with Darius at safety.

 

[SWC75]

The only thing I'd switch would be Ismail for Dar Dar at KOR. He was a good returner for Minnesota when he first entered the league. It's touch not seeing Czonka on the list, but you can't put him over Jim Brown. Not seeing Rob Moore is tough too, but Monk and Harrison did have better careers. I always wondered what Moore may have done had he played for a good team for a long time.

Actually, you are right. Ismail's numbers are better than Dar Dars. I guess I still had Kirby's TDs vs. Flordia and Colorado in my min d. But that wasn't in the NFL.

 

[SWC75]

Wasn't Tom Myers an All-Pro safety.

Csonka?

Joe Ehrmann?

Jim Collins?

Per the list, Tommy made the pro bowl one year but was not "All-Pro". I'd always heard that Ridlon had played in the pro bowl but not according to this list. I was also surprized his career value was only 26 points to Tommy's 44. Myers probably should have been the pick over Ridlon but I'd already made him my punt returner. I guess that's one place where you could have more than one position for a guy. Ehrmann's "career value" was listed 29 compared to Thoms' 40. You can't pick Csonka over Brown, who played fullback for the Browns. Collins, (42) was listed as a right linebacker, just like Bullock (74).

 

[SWC75]

Would have Tebucky Jones with Darius at safety.

Maybe. His career value was 27 vs. Ridlon's 26. I've always liked Jimmy and think he was an underated player in SU history.

 

[SWC75]

Larry Czonka has to be on the team. Ernie is on the team as well. On D Joe Erman needs to make it

I'd love to put Ernie on the team but I don't see how I could do it if he never played. And Floyd's a Hall of Famer.

 

[OrangePA]

Per the list, Tommy made the pro bowl one year but was not "All-Pro". I'd always heard that Ridlon had played in the pro bowl but not according to this list. I was also surprized his career value was only 26 points to Tommy's 44. Myers probably should have been the pick over Ridlon but I'd already made him my punt returner. I guess that's one place where you could have more than one position for a guy. Ehrmann's "career value" was listed 29 compared to Thoms' 40. You can't pick Csonka over Brown, who played fullback for the Browns. Collins, (42) was listed as a right linebacker, just like Bullock (74).

Jim Collins was probably the best LB I ever saw at SU and he was an All-Pro.

Ehrmann was the best DL I ever saw at SU - aside perhaps from Ted Gregory's senior year - and was in my opinion a better pro than Art Thoms - who was very good at SU and in Oakland obviously.

Jim Brown was a halfback - the title FB was misleading - he ran and played as a HB.

When folks talk about great running backs they refer to Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and OJ Simpson - he was a HB.

So, I would move Brown to HB and install Csonka as the FB - the best all-time FB in my opinion.

 

[OrangePA]

Also hard not to mention Al Bemiller - center for the great Buffalo Bills teams in the 1960s.

He was a great pro.

But Jim Ringo was perhaps the best center in the first 50 years of the NFL so it's pretty academic.

 

[baggerbob]

Maybe. His career value was 27 vs. Ridlon's 26. I've always liked Jimmy and think he was an underated player in SU history.

You should make up 2 teams the first with the guys like Jim Brown, Jim Ridlon who played both ways, and the second when they went to 2 separate units of offense, and defense. The only reason Ridlon might have been underated was he had Jim Brown on his team, but those teams needed both Jim's to be successful.

 

[SWC75]

Jim Collins was probably the best LB I ever saw at SU and he was an All-Pro.

Ehrmann was the best DL I ever saw at SU - aside perhaps from Ted Gregory's senior year - and was in my opinion a better pro than Art Thoms - who was very good at SU and in Oakland obviously.

Jim Brown was a halfback - the title FB was misleading - he ran and played as a HB.

When folks talk about great running backs they refer to Jim Brown, Barry Sanders, Walter Payton and OJ Simpson - he was a HB.

So, I would move Brown to HB and install Csonka as the FB - the best all-time FB in my opinion.

Jim Brown did not play as a halfback. Bobby Mitchell and Ernie Green were the halfbacks.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJi00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MitcBo00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GreeEr01.htm


You can certainly go for Joe Ehrmann over Art Thoms. I just went with the "career value rating, which is probalby higher for Thoms due to Ehrmann's knee injury.

 

[OrangePA]

Jim Brown did not play as a halfback. Bobby Mitchell and Ernie Green were the halfbacks.

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJi00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MitcBo00.htm

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/G/GreeEr01.htm


You can certainly go for Joe Ehrmann over Art Thoms. I just went with the "career value rating, which is probalby higher for Thoms due to Ehrmann's knee injury.

The media can call him whatever it wishes, or you could place him whatever formation in the backfield - whatever. He was a halfback or a running back if you will - he was not a fullback.

Jim Brown was a breakaway runner with world class speed.

Another way of looking at it. Based on what he did and how he played, Sammy Baugh was not a "tailback" even though that was his "position" in the single wing offense - he was a "QB" in every sense of the word.

I think the same holds true for Jim Brown.

Jim Taylor, Csonka, and Johnston were "fullbacks."

 

[SWC75]

The media can call him whatever it wishes, or you could place him whatever formation in the backfield - whatever. He was a halfback or a running back if you will - he was not a fullback.

Jim Brown was a breakaway runner with world class speed.

Another way of looking at it. Based on what he did and how he played, Sammy Baugh was not a "tailback" even though that was his "position" in the single wing offense - he was a "QB" in every sense of the word.

I think the same holds true for Jim Brown.

Jim Taylor, Csonka, and Johnston were "fullbacks."

Jim Brown was a world class sprinter with breakway speed who played fullback for the Cleveland Browns. Fullbacks were feature running backs in those days. Mitchell and Green were certainly not fullbacks to Brown's halfback.

Ultimately it's not a question of whether you are going to put Jim Brown on the team but rather are you going to put Larry Csonka or Floyd Little on the team. You can't go wrong either way.

 

[rrlbees]

The media can call him whatever it wishes, or you could place him whatever formation in the backfield - whatever. He was a halfback or a running back if you will - he was not a fullback.

Jim Brown was a breakaway runner with world class speed.

Another way of looking at it. Based on what he did and how he played, Sammy Baugh was not a "tailback" even though that was his "position" in the single wing offense - he was a "QB" in every sense of the word.

I think the same holds true for Jim Brown.

Jim Taylor, Csonka, and Johnston were "fullbacks."

Agree. When I watched the Browns as a kid, Ernie Green was the FB and Brown was the HB/RB.


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[SWC75]

Agree. When I watched the Browns as a kid, Ernie Green was the FB and Brown was the HB/RB.

When I watched as a kid he was a fullback. Check out these highlights. He's in the fullback spot:

I recall green playing some fullback for Leroy Kelly: they were about the same size and kind of interchangeable. He was not the fullback when Brown was there.

 

[rrlbees]

When I watched as a kid he was a fullback. Check out these highlights. He's in the fullback spot:

I recall green playing some fullback for Leroy Kelly: they were about the same size and kind of interchangeable. He was not the fullback when Brown was there.

Most of those plays he isn't. Most of them the 2 backs are big split out to the tackles.,


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[CaptainSyracuse]

I was watching Steve Gregory make a play for the Patriots in today’s game against the Saints and I suddenly got the idea of naming an All-Pro team for past and present SU players: which Syracuse players have been the best at each position based on their NFL careers? Would Gregory make that team?


I decided that my team would consist of the classic positions from NFL as I knew it growing up. You can argue that something else is better but I like the balance of having a quarterback, a halfback, a fullback, a flanker and split end, a tight end and five interior linemen on offense. Similarly, I prefer a 4-3 defense with two safeties and 2 cornerbacks. I’ll also have a place-kicker, a punter two kick-off returners and a punt returner. I’m only picking a first team and no player can have more than one position. I used this listing as my guide:

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/colleges/syracuse/

API means All-Pro. PB means they made the Pro Bowl. ST is supposed to mean years as a “primary starter but this makes no sense: the very first guy, Faye Abbott, played from 1921-29 and had an ST of 23. Some of the others do compute: Gary Anderson played from 1982-2004 and an ST of 23. Jim Brown played from 1957-65 and has an ST of 9. I don’t know what to make of that so I ignored that column. I did pay attention to the “CarAV” column, which is an estimate of a player’s career value but I was not a slave to it. If you click on the player’s name you can find out if they played left or right tackle, guard, end, linebacker or cornerback. . The safeties will switch depending on the offensive alignment so I just picked the two best ones, (and Gregory did not make the cut).


Here is what I came up with:

FB- Jim Brown
HB- Floyd Little
FL- Art Monk
QB- Donovan McNabb
SE- Marvin Harrison
TE- John Mackey

RT- John Brown
RG- Walt Sweeney
C- Jim Ringo
LG- Craig Wolfley
LT- Stan Walters

K- Gary Anderson
P- Tom Gilburg
KOR- Kevin Johnson, Kirby Dar Dar
PR- Tommy Myers

RE- Dwight Freeney
RT- Art Thoms
LT- Ken Clarke
LE- Rob Burnett

RIB- Keith Bulluck
MLB- Jim Cheyunski
LLB- Terry Wooden

RCB- Carl Karilivacz
SS- Donovin Darius
FS- Jim Ridlon
LCB- Will Allen

Comment: Compared to some other schools, I’m sure the offensive line is mediocre, (although Ringo and Sweeney were very good). Anderson was the NFL’s all-time leading scorer at one time. Gilberg averaged 41.4 yards per punt, (Pat O’Neill was only 39.3). Freeney’s all-time great but the other D-linemen are not. The linebackers are OK at best. The safeties are good but the cornerbacks are below average compared to a lot of schools.


But try to beat that first group.


(One guy I did not use was Otis Wilson, a linebacker for the ’85 Bears. He flunked out of SU after playing briefly and alter claimed in article that he’s been the MVP of SU’s 1975 team. That was actually another linebacker, Ray Preston. The guy became a good NFL player but was a footnote in Syracuse history and a liar to boot.)

 

[CaptainSyracuse]

I would have Joe Morris as my kickoff returner.

 

[SWC75]

Most of those plays he isn't. Most of them the 2 backs are big split out to the tackles.,

At least half of them he's lined up behind the QB. That's the fullback And even if they are split to the side, he's the bigger back. Mitchell certainly was not a fullback. Jim did all the inside running.

 

[SWC75]

I would have Joe Morris as my kickoff returner.

His pro numbers in that department aren't very good.
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/M/MorrJo00.htm

 

[rrlbees]

At least half of them he's lined up behind the QB. That's the fullback And even if they are split to the side, he's the bigger back. Mitchell certainly was not a fullback. Jim did all the inside running.

Ernie Green was the FB. You could ask George Allen what position Brown played. He was out where they needed to to get him the ball but he was rarely the lead blocker. Green led Brown often especially on sweeps.


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