Syracuse Orange Power Poll Week 2

[DomeStranger]

Cast your vote

So ... how about spending some time evaluating your #5 ranked Syracuse Orange?

Last year Moqui (BlazeOrange assisted) started a power poll of our favorite players to see where we all perceived them to be. It turned into a favorite thread every week. A couple weeks ago a poster tried to resurrect this idea but I didn't see where anyone decided to take on the tedious work of tallying the responses.

So, I wanted to see what everybody thought about doing an online survey style poll. This will tabulate everybody's choices and score our players accordingly. It will also give you instant gratification on the current results which is nice. Maybe if this works out we can get the admins to figure out how to embed the poll into the thread, but for now it's a link that just brings you to the survey website. This is my first time attempting something like this, so I am sure there will be some adjustments made if this works out. Please let me know of any ideas or comments.

With all that said, I think this is the most interesting year to "rank" our players. When I attempted this myself, I wasn't surprised with my top votes as much as I was amazed at the players at the bottom of this stacked list.

So what are you all waiting for?

Vote now!

Tip: If you want to change a vote you can. Just go back and take the survey again and change your responses accordingly. This will also bring you back to the results screen. So if you want to view the updated results, you can just resubmit your entries to view. Resubmitting your entry will only edit/confirm your vote and not duplicate it. There is only one vote per person allowed.

 

[jekelish]

Well crap, I did it wrong. I ranked them as 10 = best, 1 = worst. Damnit.

 

[DomeStranger]

Well crap, I did it wrong. I ranked them as 10 = best, 1 = worst. Damnit.

You can go back and change your responses anytime!

Oh yeah ... thanks for playing, Jek!

 

[jekelish]

I just tried...it didn't reflect my changes.

At this point my rankings are:

1. Dion
2. Kris
3. James
4. CJ
5. Brandon
6. MCW
7. Scoop
8. Fab
9. Rak
10. BMK

The last 5 are really 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d and 6e for me.

 

[DomeStranger]

I just tried...it didn't reflect my changes.

At this point my rankings are:

1. Dion
2. Kris
3. James
4. CJ
5. Brandon
6. MCW
7. Scoop
8. Fab
9. Rak
10. BMK

The last 5 are really 6a, 6b, 6c, 6d and 6e for me.

It updated fine!

LOL on the 6a-e, haha ... that's what I meant about not being surprised about the top of the list as much as the bottom!

 

[fanfanclubclub]

1. Melo
2. Waiters
3. Fair
4. Joseph
5. BMK
6. Triche
7. MCW
8. Jardine
9. Xmas
10. Dirty
11. Mookie

 

[jekelish]

1. Melo
2. Waiters
3. Fair
4. Joseph
5. BMK
6. Triche
7. MCW
8. Jardine
9. Xmas
10. Dirty
11. Mookie

Melo 1 and James 10? Really?

 

[fanfanclubclub]

Melo 1 and James 10? Really?

Melo has shown that he a 1st rounder, a star. He effects every possession in an above-the-rim manner that will give elite competition lots of trouble. In these early games, he has shown he can be a problem for Kentucky and UNC. I couldn't care less if he fouls out while we are pressing against the local orphanage. Even against Colgate, Melo showed the athletic profile that will make him a 1st round pick.

If I were a scout grading the Colgate game, only Melo comes away with a sure 1st round grade. James ends up somewhere at the bottom of the list. Point totals in these sorts of games don't really matter. Colgate couldn't inbound the ball.

So, I couldn't care less that Dirty was the beneficiary of so many failures by Colgate to get the ball to half court. It doesn't matter that Dirty got open dunks against midgets. It doesn't even really matter what his shooting percentage is against early cupcakes. Don't we go through this every year? Last year it was Dirty and Scoop lighting up the Little Sisters of the Poor. At this point of the year, it is more important to play high caliber, repeatable, polished offense and defense, than it is to make highlight reel dunks against nobodies.

James doesn't create his own shot, he hasn't shown anything to suggest he can hit at a high rate against good competition (because he is so slow), and he doesn't bring much else to his floor game (steals against Colgate notwithstanding). I mean, I know it feels good to cheer on James. I don't mean to begrudge him his time in the spotlight. But James could go 8-8 next game, yet if he doesn't improve his quickness and feel for the game, I know what he won't be bringing enough against Pittsburgh. James is a very good college player on an amazing team with 7 great college players.

The very same dynamic drove the "Jardine vs Triche" arguments last season, because Scoop was Jordan against Southeast Cortland State, while Triche was lousy: but then Triche was a very good guard against real competition, while Scoop spent the rest of the season making it difficult to tell the difference between shots and failed alley oops.

Yet, if I remember correctly, Scoop ended the season with a better ranking in the Cuse fan poll, largely because his good early point totals.

 

[jordoo]

Dion
James
Baye
Fab
CJ
Kris
Brandon
Scoop
MCW
Rakeem

 

[arbitragegls]

KJ
dion
Triche
Keita
Melo
Scoop
CJ
Dirty
MCW

 

[jordoo]

Strange how low some are ranking James. If you are ranking purely by how the guys played and performed over the last week he has been one of our best without question.

 

[Dick_in_MI]

Melo has shown that he a 1st rounder, a star. He effects every possession in an above-the-rim manner that will give elite competition lots of trouble. In these early games, he has shown he can be a problem for Kentucky and UNC. I couldn't care less if he fouls out while we are pressing against the local orphanage. Even against Colgate, Melo showed the athletic profile that will make him a 1st round pick.

If I were a scout grading the Colgate game, only Melo comes away with a sure 1st round grade. James ends up somewhere at the bottom of the list. Point totals in these sorts of games don't really matter. Colgate couldn't inbound the ball.

So, I couldn't care less that Dirty was the beneficiary of so many failures by Colgate to get the ball to half court. It doesn't matter that Dirty got open dunks against midgets. It doesn't even really matter what his shooting percentage is against early cupcakes. Don't we go through this every year? Last year it was Dirty and Scoop lighting up the Little Sisters of the Poor. At this point of the year, it is more important to play high caliber, repeatable, polished offense and defense, than it is to make highlight reel dunks against nobodies.

James doesn't create his own shot, he hasn't shown anything to suggest he can hit at a high rate against good competition (because he is so slow), and he doesn't bring much else to his floor game (steals against Colgate notwithstanding). I mean, I know it feels good to cheer on James. I don't mean to begrudge him his time in the spotlight. But James could go 8-8 next game, yet if he doesn't improve his quickness and feel for the game, I know what he won't be bringing enough against Pittsburgh. James is a very good college player on an amazing team with 7 great college players.

The very same dynamic drove the "Jardine vs Triche" arguments last season, because Scoop was Jordan against Southeast Cortland State, while Triche was lousy: but then Triche was a very good guard against real competition, while Scoop spent the rest of the season making it difficult to tell the difference between shots and failed alley oops.

Yet, if I remember correctly, Scoop ended the season with a better ranking in the Cuse fan poll, largely because his good early point totals.

Seriously, you have an obvious hard on for Southerland as evidenced by your previous posts. What's the matter? Did he refuse to give you an autgograph or something?

He's currently leading the team in scoring, is second in FG % behind Baye (who has only attempted 8 shots this year), overwhelmingly leading the team in 3 pt %, 4th on the team in FT %, 4th in rebounds/game, leads all the non-guards in assists, 3rd in blocks, second in steals...

And he's 10th on your list.

You state: "So, I couldn't care less that Dirty was the beneficiary of so many failures by Colgate to get the ball to half court. It doesn't matter that Dirty got open dunks against midgets."

"Beneficiary"? You mean his steals, right? Because Colgates failures were due to James stealing the ball. And what your #1 Fab does against midgets apparently is totally valid, as opposed to what James does. OK I see. Very consistant.

You should try following another sport. Darts maybe.

 

[DomeStranger]

Strange how low some are ranking James. If you are ranking purely by how the guys played and performed over the last week he has been one of our best without question.

James is actually ranked pretty high (#3) ... very close to KJ's #2 spot.

 

[BlazeOrange]

1. Waiters
2. Joseph
3. Melo
4. Fair
5. Jardine
6. Triche
7. Dirty
8. BMK
9. Xmas
10. MCW
11. Mookie

Moqui ran the poll last year and I made graphs of the results from week to week. At least until Imageshack started giving me problems when I'd download the graphics. If this takes off again, I might resurrect the files if someone else will tally the poll results.

 

[orangefan13]

Cast your vote



Last year someone (I forget who) started a power poll of our favorite players to see where we all perceived them to be. .

It was Moqui. Is Moqui still out there under another screename?

Kinda miss his insight. He was a Huge supporter of Southerlands ceiling as well.

Anway. Im not ready to guess this one yet. Because MCW, Rak, deserve better and Southerland is playing against midcompetition. CJ seems alittle less motored then last year but that is going to change as well.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

Seriously, you have an obvious hard on for Southerland as evidenced by your previous posts. What's the matter? Did he refuse to give you an autgograph or something?

No, if you remember last year, I made the exact same arguments against Scoop (under the name ThomServo). I eventually got banned under that name for making so many statistical arguments against Scoop's chucking. Eventually, the board came around.

James is a similar player. He would be a star for most any Cuse team in the 90s. Not for this one though. I'm a James fan like I'm a Mookie fan, I'd be thrilled to hang out with either one.

Posters on the board usually react very strongly and negatively to any poster who criticizes someone who scores points. It is usually just that simple (see Scoop, GMAC, etc). If some SU players scores some points in an inefficient manner, or against lousy competition: most posters insult anyone who critiques the scorers as "not a fan," a "moron," etc. I was called everything under the sun for simply using basic metrics to point out Scoop's inefficiency.

So no, I don't have a "hard on" for James. I don't even get that reference, wouldn't a hard on be akin to attraction and fanhood?

I am simply making a very obvious point: James uncontested dunks, while we were pressing the local orphanage, do not matter as much as Melo's physical skills (which are still very much with us, despite fouling out in our meaningless "game").

But if you are trying to stick up for James, I get it. On so many other Cuse teams from the somewhat recent past, James would be our star. In that sense, James is extremely underrated. But he simply lacks the needed quickness and feel for the game to be a top 7 player on this team.

 

[DomeStranger]

1. Waiters
2. Joseph
3. Melo
4. Fair
5. Jardine
6. Triche
7. Dirty
8. BMK
9. Xmas
10. MCW
11. Mookie

Moqui ran the poll last year and I made graphs of the results from week to week. At least until Imageshack started giving me problems when I'd download the graphics. If this takes off again, I might resurrect the files if someone else will tally the poll results.

That right ... cool. Definitely nicer to post your results and stand behind your picks ... but I sure as heck don't want to tally them. I was trying to think uo something that could easily be exported to a spreadsheet but this was a lot easier on my tired brain.

I was also thinking of ways I could "tweak" the poll feature already built into this site ... that would definitely be the way to go ... maybe put that on our Christmas list (pun not intended).

 

[BlazeOrange]

Here's a summary of last years poll results:

 

[DomeStranger]

Looks good Blaze ... I can certainly give you access to the website if you want to do the graphs ... you also can see the current results by refreshing the results page. This is pretty much all of it, anyway.

There is a setting where you can give a weight to the vote (#1 vote can get 10 pts ... #2 gets 9 ...) and I probably should have figured that out better. Right now I don't want to mess with it in the middle, but maybe I'll try it out at the end of the week to see if it can recalculate this week and use for next weeks going forward.

It will probably be easier to work with a "point score" than a ranking, but I guess in the end it's all the same.

BTW ... If anybody wants to help analyzing these numbers or work on this project, feel free to let me know. I just wanted to get the ball rolling again on something that has been fun in the past.

 

[Dick_in_MI]

Posters on the board usually react very strongly and negatively to any poster who criticizes someone who scores points. It is usually just that simple (see Scoop, GMAC, etc).
.

OK, but he is doing more than scoring points...He is 4th in rebounds/game, leads all the non-guards in assists, 3rd in blocks, second in steals. He has the most impressive assist/turnover ratio on the team as well. That is more than just lauding a player because he is scoring.
Also, James' scoring is NOT just dunks...almost half his points are coming from 3 point range.

And by the way, Fab...the #1 guy on your board...takes ALL of his shots from inside and is only making 47% of them. So James' dunks aren't as important as Fab's "physical skills"? You mean his physical skills that get him fewer than 50% of his shot attempts? Think about that for a moment. James gets his shots inside and outside and is connecting on about 2/3 of them. Fab takes all of his shots virtually point blank and is making fewer than half of them.

Despite being much bigger than the opposition this year, Fab has only one more rebound than CJ and is only averaging 6 ppg. That's 6 ppg against midgets.

This is not a knock on Fab; rather it is a reality check on how you can rate him #1 and James #10.

 

[Cuse_MN]

>>Melo has shown that he a 1st rounder, a star. He effects every possession in an above-the-rim manner that will give elite competition lots of trouble. In these early games, he has shown he can be a problem for Kentucky and UNC. I couldn't care less if he fouls out while we are pressing against the local orphanage. Even against Colgate, Melo showed the athletic profile that will make him a 1st round pick.>>

So if stats and efficiency are what you care about, why is Melo ranked ahead of BMK by you when Baye has better FG%, better FT%, is more athletic and is playing more efficiently by averaging more reb's/min, pts/min and blocks/min than Fab? not to mention Baye was a better player than Fab last year. given you've judged Melo as a star, first round pick and best player on the team based on four games against "Little Sisters of the Poor" despite his own teammate at the same spot outplaying him in every category this year after outplaying him last year, common sense would say you would have some flexibility for opinions/perception on Southerland's recent play and potential given your view on Melo doesn't hold up to the same standard you set for James.

if this is poll on actual play vs perception and expections, to rank Southerland as 10th player on team through four games is comical at best. i doubt anyone expects james to maintain this level of play, but give the kid his due. I don't really understand the mentality that runs rampant on this board that kids don't get better. your focus on his 'dunks against midgets' is puzzling given he has clearly shown himself to be the best mid-range and three point shooter on the team through four games based on actual, real shooting vs fans perception. i'm not even sure where this idea that he had a hot start last year comes from, he didn't score in double figures into the 9th game and has scored in double figures 3 out of 4 times this yr...we haven't 'seen this before' from james.

 

[bnoro]

Seriously, you have an obvious hard on for Southerland as evidenced by your previous posts. What's the matter? Did he refuse to give you an autgograph or something?

He's currently leading the team in scoring, is second in FG % behind Baye (who has only attempted 8 shots this year), overwhelmingly leading the team in 3 pt %, 4th on the team in FT %, 4th in rebounds/game, leads all the non-guards in assists, 3rd in blocks, second in steals...

And he's 10th on your list.

You state: "So, I couldn't care less that Dirty was the beneficiary of so many failures by Colgate to get the ball to half court. It doesn't matter that Dirty got open dunks against midgets."

"Beneficiary"? You mean his steals, right? Because Colgates failures were due to James stealing the ball. And what your #1 Fab does against midgets apparently is totally valid, as opposed to what James does. OK I see. Very consistant.

You should try following another sport. Darts maybe.

BUT HE STUDIES STATISTICS FOR A LIVING! HIS OPINION IS MORE VALID THAN YOURS!

 

[bnoro]

Melo has shown that he a 1st rounder, a star. He effects every possession in an above-the-rim manner that will give elite competition lots of trouble. In these early games, he has shown he can be a problem for Kentucky and UNC. I couldn't care less if he fouls out while we are pressing against the local orphanage. Even against Colgate, Melo showed the athletic profile that will make him a 1st round pick.

If I were a scout grading the Colgate game, only Melo comes away with a sure 1st round grade. James ends up somewhere at the bottom of the list. Point totals in these sorts of games don't really matter. Colgate couldn't inbound the ball.

So, I couldn't care less that Dirty was the beneficiary of so many failures by Colgate to get the ball to half court. It doesn't matter that Dirty got open dunks against midgets. It doesn't even really matter what his shooting percentage is against early cupcakes. Don't we go through this every year? Last year it was Dirty and Scoop lighting up the Little Sisters of the Poor. At this point of the year, it is more important to play high caliber, repeatable, polished offense and defense, than it is to make highlight reel dunks against nobodies.

James doesn't create his own shot, he hasn't shown anything to suggest he can hit at a high rate against good competition (because he is so slow), and he doesn't bring much else to his floor game (steals against Colgate notwithstanding). I mean, I know it feels good to cheer on James. I don't mean to begrudge him his time in the spotlight. But James could go 8-8 next game, yet if he doesn't improve his quickness and feel for the game, I know what he won't be bringing enough against Pittsburgh. James is a very good college player on an amazing team with 7 great college players.

Did you watch the Colgate game? Melo was out of place, struggled as he was too aggressive, and couldn't get into the flow of the offense because there were too many fast breaks. He also didn't rebound well. I am a big Fab fan but you cannot with a straight face say that Melo played a better game than James.

I'd also like to know what Fab has shown to suggest he can play against good competition.

I really wish there was an ignore button, because on the last site ThomServo was on my block list (even though i love MST3K).

 

[fanfanclubclub]

So if stats and efficiency are what you care about, why is Melo ranked ahead of BMK by you when Baye has better FG%, better FT%, is more athletic and is playing more efficiently by averaging more reb's/min, pts/min and blocks/min than Fab?

The reason I don't rank BMK higher than Melo based on this season's statistics is because we have a very small sample size. We have only gotten a brief glimpse of Melo the player (as opposed to Melo the injured zombie). If Melo stays long enough to give us a sizable sample, he will obviously outpace BMK in many important stats. And BMK is a stud too. I agree that Melo looked out of place against Colgate. He will look less out of place in the NBA next season.

Before Wes Johnson played a single game for the Cuse, almost every scout/pro personnel evaluator who had seen him knew he was a first rounder. Ditto for Melo, this season.

And we have seen this before from Dirty. Last season, there was a three game stretch against weak competition against whom Dirty scored well. Against Colgate, Iona, and Morgan State, Southerland averaged 10.6 points and 5.3 rebounds a game with excellent percentages and efficiency. Most of the board began ranking Dirty as a better player than C.J. Fair at that time: but I did not. My opinion was that Dirty had simply put up good scoring numbers against weak competition, and I think that opinion was validated by the rest of James's season. I absolutely agree that James can improve (his quickness, handle, feel, vision, etc), but I do not see much improvement. He's a good player, but this team is just too stacked.

Anywho, there's no reason for controversy here. Most everyone understands that Dirty is on the outside looking in as far as being one of our best 6-7 players: points scored against Colgate notwithstanding. I'm glad to see him do well, but I suspect that Mookie could do almost as well if given a similar shot. And that is not meant as an insult to anyone. Mookie was a top recruit, and could have been a star, if not for our flood of awesome talent.

 

[fanfanclubclub]

BUT HE STUDIES STATISTICS FOR A LIVING! HIS OPINION IS MORE VALID THAN YOURS!

hey man, I'm sorry if I've offended you at some point. Honestly, right now, I don't feel like carrying on the witty adversarial banter. I've never said that my opinion is any more valid than anyone else's. What is it that I've done to offend you? I've never insulted you, but maybe I've been rude. Is it because I mention my job as a way to explain why I am using certain statistics? I will be less obnoxious about that, I am sorry. I am simply getting over excited. Is it because I think Scoop and Nassib are inefficient? I'm sorry man, I will be less antagonistic.

I simply use a great deal of statistical analysis to form my sports opinions, because that is part of my job. I don't know how I got lucky enough to have such a job. Maybe I'll get fired. We all know pro sports is full of morons. I'm not saying my opinions are great, and I don't insult other posters: I simply explain the basis of my opinions and the personal experience that led me to form such opinions. I personally feel that unpopular opinions are greeted too often with ad hominum attacks and bandwagon insults on this board: but even if that's true, my posts may still be very stupid. I will seriously try to improve them, this is a really fun board.