System vs. Talent

[GoSU96]

I think we all at time can get to caught up in one or the other. The fact of the matter is we probably haven't had enough talent to run anything consistently over the last decade, probably since McNabb.

QB play has been abysmal, I can count McPherson, McNabb, Philcox, and Graves as very good talents at the QB position since I've been following SU over the last 30 years. We've only had 2 QB's drafted in that time frame. Two!

How many skill guys have we had drafted over the last decade? Carter, Williams, Morant and Tyree? None of which went higher than the 4th round. That's pretty sad. Over the last few years, Abeline Christian has had more skill guys taken than us. That 2009 Texas Tech team had 4 or 5 guys taken in the first 3 or 4 rounds. Ga Tech and their wishbone has had 4 or 5 skill guys drafted in the last couple of years, including 2 WR's in the first round.

Marrone will not be successful at Syracuse, nor will any other coach with any other system until our talent on the offensive side of the ball is upgraded. Marrone has had only two full recuiting classes thus far. He will live or die with this incoming class, IMO.

What Marrone has done is raise the floor of performance year over year. Raising the talent level takes that ability to execute the system and adds a big play capability to it. That's all that is missing.

 

[kingottoiii]

There's wasn't a single explosive player at WR or TB this year. Therefore the emphasis of execution and grinding it out. A bunch of good players, but not a singular talent. Agree the the emphasis on execution put a lot of pressure on the team, consistently bad field position, and lack of easy yards and points upped the pressure.

If there was one kid at either position and it would have been a different story. Put a kid opposite of Lemon and Provo like Sanu or Bailey, and this team is 8 or 9 wins easy. Wouldn't have needed a superstar tailback this year, but a kid of the level of Mungro/Reyes/Rhodes/Brinkley and they win 7 games at least.

I still don't get the use of Bailey and the lack of plays for Kobena/Graham. I do not think we should have been a bubble screen team. I wouldn't want that. But it would have been nice to mix that in and hope for one of those two to break a big gain. Same with runs by each of them. They were the two most explosive players we have and they weren't given the ball. I would have liked to have seen less runs by Bailey giving up carries to Smith or AAM. Then in return use Bailey more as a receiver out of the backfield. I think he was one of the few players that offered a mismatch, yet we used him like DC3.

Also it would have been nice to mix in some more Express plays. Where they used outside of the UL game? And how about some option with Kinder? Why was there no misdirection? Do we even have a counter in the play book? Wouldn't a small athletic line be better off running these vs power running plays?

 

[Orangello]

NFL draft picks from BE teams since 2000 (first rounders in parens):

1. Pittsburgh 29 (3)
2. Louisville 29 (2)
3. Syracuse 24 (3)
4. Cincinnati 21 (0)
5. West Virginia 18 (2)
6. Rutgers 17 (3)
7. USF 16 (2)
8. UConn 11 (1)

Say what you want about the lack of talent but the numbers suggest otherwise. You can get all the skill gus you want but if your system isn't designed to stretch the field and your QB can't get them the ball anyway you're spinning your wheels. There is simply no excuse for finishing in last place in this crap conference. Put Nassib and Hacket at Baylor lather, rinse repeat.

 

[Townie72]

Completely agree with this.

More importantly is if we start to see a purge of Marrone recruits leaving the program, I'm hoping the "powers that be" have the good sense to step in and intervene.

Pride;

You are aware that the "Powers that Be" are 1.) Darryl Gross and 2.) Nancy Cantor.

Gross bought Marrone here after his first choice failed miserably. DM is his second attempt. How anxious do you feel he is to admit to fre #2.

Cantor has bigger fish to fry including the "alleged" offenses of the #2 guy in the "Goose that Lays th Golden Egg" program at SU.

Doug's here 2 or 3 years more minimum.

I'm not saying he should be. Or that he earned it. Or it's only fair or any of that stuff. I'm just telling you what is most likely.

 

[SanDiegoCuse]

I would say experience plays into this as well - with 55 out of 80 ish scholies all fresh and sophs we have too many young boys under 20 playing against teams with far more upperclassmen and more mature teams. also I think the "purge" of players early on finally caught up with DM and SU when he first got here.

Also I dont know if its Nassib or the OLine or system or all three...too complex for me to figure out.

This is one of the many problems. We had a kid starting and playing linebacker for the first time. It's a whole different ballgame and more of an even playing field if we had many upperclassmen we lost due to injuries, suspensions, qualifying issues etc.

We would look like a much different team if we had Marcus Sales, Defarrel Davis, Averin Collier, Don Timbers, EJ Carter, Malcolm Cater, Nick Speller etc. All kids who would or might be starting. And I know many schools have these issues but in our rebuilding process there's not a huge margin for error.

 

[007]

NFL draft picks from BE teams since 2000 (first rounders in parens):

1. Pittsburgh 29 (3)
2. Louisville 29 (2)
3. Syracuse 24 (3)
4. Cincinnati 21 (0)
5. West Virginia 18 (2)
6. Rutgers 17 (3)
7. USF 16 (2)
8. UConn 11 (1)

Say what you want about the lack of talent but the numbers suggest otherwise. You can get all the skill gus you want but if your system isn't designed to stretch the field and your QB can't get them the ball anyway you're spinning your wheels. There is simply no excuse for finishing in last place in this crap conference. Put Nassib and Hacket at Baylor lather, rinse repeat.

Looking deeper into the numbers, there have been a total of 9 players drafted from SU since the 2003 draft, that's a nine year span. The highest being Anthony Smith in the 3rd round. Mike Williams would be the only NFL caliber play maker from SU in at least the last 10 years.

 

[44PRIDE]

Pride;

You are aware that the "Powers that Be" are 1.) Darryl Gross and 2.) Nancy Cantor.

Gross bought Marrone here after his first choice failed miserably. DM is his second attempt. How anxious do you feel he is to admit to fre #2.

Cantor has bigger fish to fry including the "alleged" offenses of the #2 guy in the "Goose that Lays th Golden Egg" program at SU.

Doug's here 2 or 3 years more minimum.

I'm not saying he should be. Or that he earned it. Or it's only fair or any of that stuff. I'm just telling you what is most likely.

When I say "powers-that-be", I include the search committee that found Doug. Floyd Little, Coach Mac, TGD...etc.

I'm not saying Doug should be fired...far from it. What I am saying is that our program can ill-afford another mass exodus of talent. If we start seeing Marrone recruits heading for the exits en-mass, my hope is that we see these respected individuals step in for an "intervention" between player and coach.

Obviously one or two players isn't an exodus. But if we see 3-4-5-6 players finding new homes, that is a sign of a disconnect between the player/coach relationship that must be addressed immediately.

 

[SanDiegoCuse]

This is one of the many problems. We had a kid starting and playing linebacker for the first time. It's a whole different ballgame and more of an even playing field if we had many upperclassmen we lost due to injuries, suspensions, qualifying issues etc.

We would look like a much different team if we had Marcus Sales, Defarrel Davis, Averin Collier, Don Timbers, EJ Carter, Malcolm Cater, Nick Speller etc. All kids who would or might be starting. And I know many schools have these issues but in our rebuilding process there's not a huge margin for error.

Oh and I must mention Dale Peterman not getting here or Cali's head may explode. Haha.

 

[CIL]

NFL draft picks from BE teams since 2000 (first rounders in parens):

1. Pittsburgh 29 (3)
2. Louisville 29 (2)
3. Syracuse 24 (3)
4. Cincinnati 21 (0)
5. West Virginia 18 (2)
6. Rutgers 17 (3)
7. USF 16 (2)
8. UConn 11 (1)

Say what you want about the lack of talent but the numbers suggest otherwise. You can get all the skill gus you want but if your system isn't designed to stretch the field and your QB can't get them the ball anyway you're spinning your wheels. There is simply no excuse for finishing in last place in this crap conference. Put Nassib and Hacket at Baylor lather, rinse repeat.

Not apples to apples...several of those schools weren't in a BCS conference in 2000. What do those numbers look like in the last five years?

 

[44PRIDE]

cali...whatever happened to cali?

 

[rrlbees]

There's wasn't a single explosive player at WR or TB this year. Therefore the emphasis of execution and grinding it out. A bunch of good players, but not a singular talent. Agree the the emphasis on execution put a lot of pressure on the team, consistently bad field position, and lack of easy yards and points upped the pressure.

If there was one kid at either position and it would have been a different story. Put a kid opposite of Lemon and Provo like Sanu or Bailey, and this team is 8 or 9 wins easy. Wouldn't have needed a superstar tailback this year, but a kid of the level of Mungro/Reyes/Rhodes/Brinkley and they win 7 games at least.

Lemon averaged more ypc than Sanu and had longer TD. Sanu was their possession guy.

 

[GoSU96]

Lemon averaged more ypc than Sanu and had longer TD. Sanu was their possession guy.

Did we have one player at WR or TB as an overall athlete that Sanu is? That's all I'm saying. Put someone like him in this offense and it would take off, with Nassib at QB.

 

[OrangePA]

The problem is Marrone is not maximizing what he is working with. Sure we need talent to have a good O, and no system will change that. But a different system would certainly make our current group better. Not good, but better. RU (4-3), UConn (3-4), and Pitt (3-2 without Graham) all have similar talent yet none of them ended up 1-6 in BE play.

I don't see it the way you and some others see it.

I think Ryan Nassib is squeezing as much out of his talent base as is possible.

I think the same holds true for guys like Provo, Lemon, Chew, Bailey and most of the OL.

As Rahme pointed out this AM, take away the turnovers and the SU offense was headed for a 500 yards plus day againt Pitt.

By the end of the game the offense was pushing the Pitt defense around.

Although some on this board apparently think he is an idiot, I have to believe that if Marrone felt that he could do better with another system - whatever that would be - he would employ that system.

Nassib can't run an option based offense - he just doesn't have the feet to do it.

And is not accurate enough to run a pass happy offense.

The fact is that while using a ground-based offense this year, Ryan Nassib I think set records for completions, TDs and attempts. Am I wrong about that?

In other words the system allowed Ryan to perform fairly well. That's what an offense is supposed to do.

 

[OrangePA]

NFL draft picks from BE teams since 2000 (first rounders in parens):

1. Pittsburgh 29 (3)
2. Louisville 29 (2)
3. Syracuse 24 (3)
4. Cincinnati 21 (0)
5. West Virginia 18 (2)
6. Rutgers 17 (3)
7. USF 16 (2)
8. UConn 11 (1)

Say what you want about the lack of talent but the numbers suggest otherwise. You can get all the skill gus you want but if your system isn't designed to stretch the field and your QB can't get them the ball anyway you're spinning your wheels. There is simply no excuse for finishing in last place in this crap conference. Put Nassib and Hacket at Baylor lather, rinse repeat.

How many of SU's picks were from 2000 to 2005?

 

[OrangePA]

Did we have one player at WR or TB as an overall athlete that Sanu is? That's all I'm saying. Put someone like him in this offense and it would take off, with Nassib at QB.

I heard a coach state that Sanu is the best player in the BE.

 

[OrangePA]

I have always heard that about Deleone but when it came to what he used in the actually games, he basically called the same plays over an over. The only difference was formations. Do different formations count as different plays in that book? If so then that would explain how it was so big. I don't think anyone who watched SU play thought our system was complex when he was here.

"I don't think anyone who watched SU play thought our system was complex when he was here."

That's because none of us really knows what is going on down on the field.

Buy DeLeone's video on the freeze-option.

It's actually very interesting.

And it makes clear just how complicated this game really is and how many moving parts are involved in running a solid college offense.

 

[CIL]

Lemon averaged more ypc than Sanu and had longer TD. Sanu was their possession guy.

Didn't Lemon's "long" td come in garbage time against USF's second string D? Also, Lemon doesn't see double coverage on a regular basis. We've talked about this. There's no way you believe Lemon is Sanu's equal.

 

[GoSU96]

Didn't Lemon's "long" td come in garbage time against USF's second string D? Also, Lemon doesn't see double coverage on a regular basis. We've talked about this. There's no way you believe Lemon is Sanu's equal.

Just from a physical talent standpoint SU did not put anybody as physically gifted as Sanu, Deering, or Harrison on the field this year. Alec is a very good WR who would thrive with a true deep threat opposite him.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Did we have one player at WR or TB as an overall athlete that Sanu is? That's all I'm saying. Put someone like him in this offense and it would take off, with Nassib at QB.

It frustrates me to no end that you would make a statement like that, since you are regularly the guy when we whiff on a recruit or have a player go down to say that it's no big impact or that one player doesn't make a program.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Kind of surprised more hasn't been made out of it yet, but until the OL solidifies, it is very hard to get kids drafted high unless they are tremendously heavily used targets (ala Mike Williams and Sanu). RBs can't run through walls 2 yards behind the LOS, QBs can't show off the gun without time, and likewise, WRs can't get downfield in time. Also a good OL is critical for extending drives and making sure we are running enough plays that these kids have enough opportunities for scouts to grade them out and pump up their statistics. This might be issue number one on this team.

You build that OL, and skill players will get drafted. You get those guys drafted, and they will be followed through the system by guys who have the physical abilities to get drafted higher.

 

[Orangello]

Looking deeper into the numbers, there have been a total of 9 players drafted from SU since the 2003 draft, that's a nine year span. The highest being Anthony Smith in the 3rd round. Mike Williams would be the only NFL caliber play maker from SU in at least the last 10 years.

Not including the 2003 draft, there have been 12. If you include 2003 it's 14.

 

[rrlbees]

Didn't Lemon's "long" td come in garbage time against USF's second string D? Also, Lemon doesn't see double coverage on a regular basis. We've talked about this. There's no way you believe Lemon is Sanu's equal.

Sanu was not a deep threat is what I replied to Go about. And I bet he wasn't doubled as much as you think since he was a short pass guy. He ran the same kind of patterns Lemon did.

 

[Orangello]

Not apples to apples...several of those schools weren't in a BCS conference in 2000. What do those numbers look like in the last five years?

Not my point. The cupboard is bare argument was beaten to death during the Gump fiasco. Perhaps its more than that. Maybe, just maybe, the offensive scheme/play calling, coaching and poor QB play had something to do with going 5-7 this year. On the other hand, if it's purely a lack of talent then there's not much hope for next season. Pick your poison.

 

[rrlbees]

Just from a physical talent standpoint SU did not put anybody as physically gifted as Sanu, Deering, or Harrison on the field this year. Alec is a very good WR who would thrive with a true deep threat opposite him.

What does physically talented get you? You have to produce. Between the 2 of them, Harrison and Deering, they caught a total of 18 passes for all games. We had 7 guys catch more than Harrison. We dropped passes but all the rutgers fans did was complain all year about dropped passes.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Not my point. The cupboard is bare argument was beaten to death during the Gump fiasco. Perhaps its more than that. Maybe, just maybe, the offensive scheme/play calling, coaching and poor QB play had something to do with going 5-7 this year. On the other hand, if it's purely a lack of talent then there's not much hope for next season. Pick your poison.

I have seen a lot of people say things like "can't see how we are any better next year," but I think continued gradual improvement of the line is a big thing. Three guys will be a year more improved, and two guys being replaced were one-dimensional blockers. If the more athletic options are ready for trial-by-fire, that alone is a reason we could flip the won-loss record.