System vs. Talent

[OrangeMuskyFish]

What does physically talented get you? You have to produce. Between the 2 of them, Harrison and Deering, they caught a total of 18 passes for all games. We had 7 guys catch more than Harrison. We dropped passes but all the rutgers fans did was complain all year about dropped passes.

In a rant in another post, this is exactly what I mention as my pet peeve. If we are going to get nuts about a "lack of talent," can we at least qualify what exactly that means? At WR for instance, obviously being fast isn't enough, or Rutgers would be putting 40 on the board every Saturday. If you are talking about making plays and catching the damn ball, then Lemon is better than the Rutgers options, and I HARDLY think that is a tradeoff these folk are leaning towards. So, aside from Calvin Johnson, what exactly is it we need at the WR position?

 

[GoSU96]

Not my point. The cupboard is bare argument was beaten to death during the Gump fiasco. Perhaps its more than that. Maybe, just maybe, the offensive scheme/play calling, coaching and poor QB play had something to do with going 5-7 this year. On the other hand, if it's purely a lack of talent then there's not much hope for next season. Pick your poison.

Yikes, the talent is better, the offense is better, the coaching is better. Doesn't mean it's a finished product or progressed as far or as fast as anyone would want, this isn't end state.

And the defense and special teams had as much, if not more, to do with the record as the offense. They were a handful of plays, positive and negative, away from 1 to 3 more wins. They were really good in close games last year, this year not so much.

 

[CIL]

In a rant in another post, this is exactly what I mention as my pet peeve. If we are going to get nuts about a "lack of talent," can we at least qualify what exactly that means? At WR for instance, obviously being fast isn't enough, or Rutgers would be putting 40 on the board every Saturday. If you are talking about making plays and catching the damn ball, then Lemon is better than the Rutgers options, and I HARDLY think that is a tradeoff these folk are leaning towards. So, aside from Calvin Johnson, what exactly is it we need at the WR position?

Explosiveness. It is not defined by speed alone. I'm not sure we have a receiver that can explode out of his breaks while running a crisp route. We certainly don't have a guy in the lineup right now that can go up and get it. I think Lemon is the best route runner we have and has a good set of hands on him, he actually reminds me a bit of a bigger Jeff Lowe. But is Lemon guy like Mike Williams who can go up and get it? When he has the ball in his hands is he making people miss?

I'll admit I haven't seen Foster, Hale, or Flemming much, so I can't speak for them. I know the staff loves Hale, and is pleasantly surprised by what Foster brings to the table.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Explosiveness. It is not defined by speed alone. I'm not sure we have a receiver that can explode out of his breaks while running a crisp route. We certainly don't have a guy in the lineup right now that can go up and get it. I think Lemon is the best route runner we have and has a good set of hands on him, he actually reminds me a bit of a bigger Jeff Lowe. But is Lemon guy like Mike Williams who can go up and get it? When he has the ball in his hands is he making people miss?

I'll admit I haven't seen Foster, Hale, or Flemming much, so I can't speak for them. I know the staff loves Hale, and is pleasantly surprised by what Foster brings to the table.

Agreed, but the point still stands... we are either going to bring in someone with physical gifts, someone who projects to play with consistency, or someone who may have both, but is an under the radar kid with big question marks. We aren't in position to do more than that, yet. So I just hate seeing a guy like Lemon take a backseat to unproven Rutgers recruits (for example) when the "talent experts" get rolling about what we "need."

 

[OttoForLife]

... and is pleasantly surprised by what Foster brings to the table.

Can you elaborate a bit on this? Did the staff think he was a throw away recruit? What exactly is he bringing to the table?

 

[GoSU96]

Agreed, but the point still stands... we are either going to bring in someone with physical gifts, someone who projects to play with consistency, or someone who may have both, but is an under the radar kid with big question marks. We aren't in position to do more than that, yet. So I just hate seeing a guy like Lemon take a backseat to unproven Rutgers recruits (for example) when the "talent experts" get rolling about what we "need."

It's not a knock on Lemon at all. I love the kid. All I'm saying is that he would be even more productive with a legit down field threat. Chew wasn't that guy.

I don't know if West is that guy, or Hale will be ready. It's just the way it is at the moment.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

It's not a knock on Lemon at all. I love the kid. All I'm saying is that he would be even more productive with a legit down field threat. Chew wasn't that guy.

I don't know if West is that guy, or Hale will be ready. It's just the way it is at the moment.

While I agree, the guy caught for 70 yards a game, without a deep threat and starting the year our rather quietly if I recall. That shows me some quality talent. But I think your comment about it parallels exactly my thoughts... there is talent on this team, but they either can't or won't take it upon themselves to transcend that next level and make those around them better. By the way, I think West will be good for two years, post-Lemon, but I don't think he has the speed to be the deep threat.

 

[Orangello]

Yikes, the talent is better, the offense is better, the coaching is better. Doesn't mean it's a finished product or progressed as far or as fast as anyone would want, this isn't end state.

And the defense and special teams had as much, if not more, to do with the record as the offense. They were a handful of plays, positive and negative, away from 1 to 3 more wins. They were really good in close games last year, this year not so much.

Better than what ? Last year ? Uhm no. Better than Gump ? Again, that's not the bar I would ever measure the performance of any legitimate college program by.

I'm not giving the D a pass and ST has been a festering problem that got noticeably worse this year, not better.

We took a big step backwards this year IMHO. I'm not a big fan of blind faith. Until I see some changes on the staff and a different QB behind center put me in the seriously concerned camp.

 

[Scooch]

Yikes, the talent is better, the offense is better, the coaching is better. Doesn't mean it's a finished product or progressed as far or as fast as anyone would want, this isn't end state.

And the defense and special teams had as much, if not more, to do with the record as the offense. They were a handful of plays, positive and negative, away from 1 to 3 more wins. They were really good in close games last year, this year not so much.

Agree that it's not the end state, but we're heading into year 4 so we better start getting there soon.

And please don't play the woulda/coulda record game. We "could" have gone 2-10 this year, if that's how we want to approach this.

 

[CIL]

Can you elaborate a bit on this? Did the staff think he was a throw away recruit? What exactly is he bringing to the table?

I don't think there is such thing as a throw away recruit. I had heard Foster was a raw but physical talent who is further along in his development than anticipated at this stage of the game.

 

[GoSU96]

Better than what ? Last year ? Uhm no. Better than Gump ? Again, that's not the bar I would ever measure the performance of any legitimate college program by.

I'm not giving the D a pass and ST has been a festering problem that got noticeably worse this year, not better.

We took a big step backwards this year IMHO. I'm not a big fan of blind faith. Until I see some changes on the staff and a different QB behind center put me in the seriously concerned camp.

Uhm yes the offense was better than last year. I don't even think that's debatable. Was it enough to lead to the same number or more wins, no, but that's not the point of the post.

The issues with the offense this year were,

1) Lack of 10+ yd plays in the run game
2) Right tackle
3) WR opposite Lemon
4) Starting field position
5) Not enough big chunk plays in the pass game.

 

[SWC75]

Wasn't 2001 Dwight Freeney's sr year. He was such a freak of player, totally disruptive, almost as responsible for that year as any one DE could ever be in college

That team was outgained by the oppostion, 329-359. We went 10-3 because we were +15 in turnovers and that was due to Freeney.

 

[SWC75]

Doug's offense is a pro-style offense so it's what the kids would be playing in the NFL. If we were scoring and winning with it it wouldn't hold our recruiting back.