Talent reality

[NJCuse97]

Significant differences -- Marrone had a durable QB in Nassib, who never missed a game. Marrone went deep into the juco pool for a quick infusion --concentrating on rebuilding his lines. Marrone relied on ball control, a running attack, and Shafer's attacking defense. Marrone competed in the Big East.

Babers installed new schemes on both sides of the ball, playing fast, air raid offense, combined with a more passive defense. Pretty much the opposite of Marrone's philosophy. Competing in a stacked ACC division.

The comparative results in year 2 might not say that much about the recruiting prowess of their predecessors.

Not sure why, but I've never thought of this philosophical inversion. This is a huge Exhibit A when looking at Babers and wondering why/how long until we turn the corner. Factor that in with the general talent drought everyone is talking about and its a recipe for disaster that Babers has managed to keep edible.

 

[Trueblue25]

If Shafer didn't get fired we would have had G-Rob like seasons the past two years.

Worse

 

[ForCuseSake]

Only good part about this thread is the disappearance of the Scott Shafer Defense League.

The mods have done a terrific job monitoring this thread or a handful of posters have let their eternal SS flame burn out.

Onward and upward.

 

[IthacaMatt]

If Shafer didn't get fired we would have had G-Rob like seasons the past two years.

To me, both of them folded up before the media as thing went south. And it's not like we have super tough media in Syracuse. When that happens, the coach is a dead man walking.

Dino has endured a couple rough seasons, but he has confidence. He has swag. He sells his vision well, and we have a couple big scalps to show that the process is working.

 

[SoBristol]

Not sure why, but I've never thought of this philosophical inversion. This is a huge Exhibit A when looking at Babers and wondering why/how long until we turn the corner. Factor that in with the general talent drought everyone is talking about and its a recipe for disaster that Babers has managed to keep edible.

Bottom line, I think most fans here believe Babers has a positive coaching temperament, the focus on player development, and the personality to sell himself and his program, despite adversity. He knows what he is doing -- has to build his lines, and most of all has to link solid, deep recruiting classes back to back to back. He has retained, and arguably improved, his staff (though Sean Lewis is a loss).

It does take time. He hasn't landed an elite RB, or an elite WR (other than AET for a grad year), or an elite LB prospect. And maybe that is not practical until he posts a winning season.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

To the original post, since the NFL modified its draft to 7 rounds in 1994 Syracuse has had 50 draft picks in the ensuing 25 drafts or an average of 2 picks per year. The highest was 5 in 1998 and 4 in both 2001 and 2006. A substantial majority of season (19 out of 25 seasons) we have had 2 draftees or less. That we had 1 chosen in 2018 is not a revelation by any means if you look at the recent past. Its simply where this program has been for the last 25 years and unless Dino is a miracle man (the current hope by many) the strong indication is that this statistic isn't going to drastically change.

So whoever is coaching better realize that they are going to have to win with an undermanned squad on a pretty regular basis or they will fail. The hope that we will somehow manage to acquire NFL talent on a consistent basis will only lead to frustration and outsized expectations.

 

[TheCusian]

To the original post, since the NFL modified its draft to 7 rounds in 1994 Syracuse has had 50 draft picks in the ensuing 25 drafts or an average of 2 picks per year. The highest was 5 in 1998 and 4 in both 2001 and 2006. A substantial majority of season (19 out of 25 seasons) we have had 2 draftees or less. That we had 1 chosen in 2018 is not a revelation by any means if you look at the recent past. Its simply where this program has been for the last 25 years and unless Dino is a miracle man (the current hope by many) the strong indication is that this statistic isn't going to drastically change.

So whoever is coaching better realize that they are going to have to win with an undermanned squad on a pretty regular basis or they will fail. The hope that we will somehow manage to acquire NFL talent on a consistent basis will only lead to frustration and outsized expectations.

This sets up a false framing.

"We can't recruit, so we can't win!" is telling half the story. We've had marginal coaching for how many of those 25 years? More than half, and certainly the majority of which came in the last 15. How about an investment by the university and/or AD in football? How much of that time did we have the income from the ACC and a competent AD?

I think it's probable that it will change. I'm just not sure it will be enough to compete for division titles year over year.

 

[shantydaze]

At a school like Syracuse, we need a coach and staff that can (1) spot the diamonds in the rough and (2) develop those players over five years so that they contribute enough to be drafted as RS Seniors. We have a tough time competing with FSU and Clemson for four or five star recruits and absent some special circumstance, probably lose those battles. I was frustrated with Dino several times last year, but then remember that he needs time to not only get kids that will fit his system, but also being developed in his system.

 

[ForCuseSake]

To the original post, since the NFL modified its draft to 7 rounds in 1994 Syracuse has had 50 draft picks in the ensuing 25 drafts or an average of 2 picks per year. The highest was 5 in 1998 and 4 in both 2001 and 2006. A substantial majority of season (19 out of 25 seasons) we have had 2 draftees or less. That we had 1 chosen in 2018 is not a revelation by any means if you look at the recent past. Its simply where this program has been for the last 25 years and unless Dino is a miracle man (the current hope by many) the strong indication is that this statistic isn't going to drastically change.

So whoever is coaching better realize that they are going to have to win with an undermanned squad on a pretty regular basis or they will fail. The hope that we will somehow manage to acquire NFL talent on a consistent basis will only lead to frustration and outsized expectations.

We should have one player per year that is top 3 round caliber. That’s my reference point for the program maxing out its recruiting chops.

SU has a long history of top 3 round NFL picks - depth has been and will continue to be the program’s Achilles’ heel.

 

[orangenauburn]

To the original post, since the NFL modified its draft to 7 rounds in 1994 Syracuse has had 50 draft picks in the ensuing 25 drafts or an average of 2 picks per year. The highest was 5 in 1998 and 4 in both 2001 and 2006. A substantial majority of season (19 out of 25 seasons) we have had 2 draftees or less. That we had 1 chosen in 2018 is not a revelation by any means if you look at the recent past. Its simply where this program has been for the last 25 years and unless Dino is a miracle man (the current hope by many) the strong indication is that this statistic isn't going to drastically change.

So whoever is coaching better realize that they are going to have to win with an undermanned squad on a pretty regular basis or they will fail. The hope that we will somehow manage to acquire NFL talent on a consistent basis will only lead to frustration and outsized expectations.

The issue is, our recent draft picks have been late rounds

We were at least producing some day one or two guys somewhat consistently

And we haven't had that recently

 

[PAcuse]

Significant differences -- Marrone had a durable QB in Nassib, who never missed a game. Marrone went deep into the juco pool for a quick infusion --concentrating on rebuilding his lines. Marrone relied on ball control, a running attack, and Shafer's attacking defense. Marrone competed in the Big East.

Babers installed new schemes on both sides of the ball, playing fast, air raid offense, combined with a more passive defense. Pretty much the opposite of Marrone's philosophy. Competing in a stacked ACC division.

The comparative results in year 2 might not say that much about the recruiting prowess of their predecessors.

The NFL draft speaks volumes of the recruiting prowess of the coaches. Robinson much better than FHCSS.

 

[bnoro]

Ravian Pierce
Koda Martin

I think these guys will have a shot at getting drafted depending on the year they have.

Just curious of your opinion.

Forgot about Koda but we'll see how he does.

Ravian will need to have a hell of a season, IMO. If Ishmael didn't get drafted it's going to take quite a year for Ravian and I'm a big fan of his.

 

[RandomGuy]

Part of this "talent reality", is based on a lot of things..

In 2004, Miami, VT left the Big East, then BC. The conference was weakened, and talent wants to play against talent... We've only been in the ACC for a handful of years, but it's a conference kids want to play in...(2cnd highest NFL drafted) They'll come. I'm not looking back.

Baber's is looking for different traits, for his system.. Abbreviated 1st cycle, and some of those kids had their shirts burned earlier than one might hope, so we lose a year of development. Those kids are entering their 3rd year, so I'm not going to pass judgement for a couple years... I think they make an impact. Maybe the 2018 class sure's up the underbelly, so Dino can start coaching/developing like he wants..

We have back to back 4-8 seasons.. Finished 2cnd? to last in the ACC.. Still finished in the middle, for ACC recruiting. They can recruit. We have our 1st real ACC coach. It's coming.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

This sets up a false framing.

"We can't recruit, so we can't win!" is telling half the story. We've had marginal coaching for how many of those 25 years? More than half, and certainly the majority of which came in the last 15. How about an investment by the university and/or AD in football? How much of that time did we have the income from the ACC and a competent AD?

I think it's probable that it will change. I'm just not sure it will be enough to compete for division titles year over year.

I'm not saying we can't win or even that we can' recruit better players. I'm saying that thinking we're gonna start turning out 4-5 NFL draft picks is unrealistic and getting 1 this year was closer to our average over a 25 year span.

This program has to win with equal or lesser talent most years and I don't think that is going to change. To many things working against in this era of recruiting. I do think we can get better players but not sure fire NFL draft picks on the regular.

 

[RandomGuy]

This program has to win with equal or lesser talent most year I don't think that is going to change.

It's already changed. (only if you believe E essPN, and two 4 7)

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not saying we can't win or even that we can' recruit better players. I'm saying that thinking we're gonna start turning out 4-5 NFL draft picks is unrealistic and getting 1 this year was closer to our average over a 25 year span.

This program has to win with equal or lesser talent most years and I don't think that is going to change. To many things working against in this era of recruiting. I do think we can get better players but not sure fire NFL draft picks on the regular.

Yeah, I get your point. I just disagree about the extreme your painting. We don’t know what good coaching + investment in the program with ACC money + competent AD + exciting system that fits the dome - looks like. We’d gotten close with Mac a long time ago.

We’re not getting sure-fire NFL guys in every draft class... only the top 10 classes can say that. But the recent uptick in talent (esp our transfers and TD) really changes the outlook, IMO.

 

[JrodCuse]

Bottom line, I think most fans here believe Babers has a positive coaching temperament, the focus on player development, and the personality to sell himself and his program, despite adversity. He knows what he is doing -- has to build his lines, and most of all has to link solid, deep recruiting classes back to back to back. He has retained, and arguably improved, his staff (though Sean Lewis is a loss).

It does take time. He hasn't landed an elite RB, or an elite WR (other than AET for a grad year), or an elite LB prospect. And maybe that is not practical until he posts a winning season.

He signed Hendrix, a 4* WR who gets here in the summer and brought in the transfer RB from Oklahoma and the transfer WR from mich st, both of which were 4* recruits and should make a big impact in 2019.

 

[City of Cuse]

Next year I can't really see us having anyone drafted outside of Slayton and *maybe* a healthy Eric Dungey?

Shafer might have been the worst recruiter in Syracuse football history.

Do you think some of this is revisionist history?

I don't have time or care enough to dig up posts, but I seem to remember people really happy with some of his recruiting.

 

[PAcuse]

Do you think some of this is revisionist history?

I don't have time or care enough to dig up posts, but I seem to remember people really happy with some of his recruiting.

I know I was happy with the recruits that where coming in, I bought into the "express" back and everything they where selling. Looking back with at the classes without the orange classes I now see how terrible they ended up being.

 

[orange_in_VA]

Do you think some of this is revisionist history?

I don't have time or care enough to dig up posts, but I seem to remember people really happy with some of his recruiting.

People were definitely very excited about some of Shafers recruits. The ones with the biggest offer lists unfortunately ended up being kids who were overrated, couldn't make it to campus, or ended up being criminals.

I went back to take a look at Shafers recruits. He left us some good ones that he didn't really get to coach much. The most productive kids are the following:

Brisly Estime
Jamar McGloster
Cole Murphy
Chris Slayton
Johnathan Thomas
Steve Ishmael
Zaire Franklin
Parris Bennett
Erv Phillips
Aaron Roberts
Antwan Cordy
Dontae Strickland
Eric Dungey
Cody Conway
Chris Frederick
Sterling Hofrichter
Keilan Whitner
Moe Neal
Scoop Bradshaw

The biggest issues with Shafers classes was the inability to get the top recruits to contribute or even make it to campus and taking flyers on guys that probably weren't D1 talents at the bottom of his classes. He did give us our starting LBers and WRs for the last 4 years as well as our starting CBs and RB two-deep for the last couple seasons, including this upcoming year. Two 4 year Special teams guys and a few good lineman mixed in. His misses definitely outweigh the hits though. It's yet to be seen if Dino is recruiting higher caliber players at this point. The class rankings look good. The only guys he's recruited that have contributed significantly to this point were his dline recruits and grad transfer/juco kids. I definitely give him credit for quickly upgrading the dline when he came in, but Shafer recruited some good ones that ended up being criminals unfortunately. We wouldn't have been in such an awful position there if Ealey and Sheppard weren't kicked off the team/arrested.

 

[SWC75]

My ranking of SU coaches this century

BABERS, (Incomplete but I feel confident this is where he will end up.)

MARRONE (Solid but a bit too conservative)




SHAFER (A great defensive coach promoted to his level of incompetence)









ROBINSON (Clueless about what it took to win at this level)

 

[Alsacs]

People were definitely very excited about some of Shafers recruits. The ones with the biggest offer lists unfortunately ended up being kids who were overrated, couldn't make it to campus, or ended up being criminals.

I went back to take a look at Shafers recruits. He left us some good ones that he didn't really get to coach much. The most productive kids are the following:

Brisly Estime
Jamar McGloster
Cole Murphy
Chris Slayton
Johnathan Thomas
Steve Ishmael
Zaire Franklin
Parris Bennett
Erv Phillips
Aaron Roberts
Antwan Cordy
Dontae Strickland
Eric Dungey
Cody Conway
Chris Frederick
Sterling Hofrichter
Keilan Whitner
Moe Neal
Scoop Bradshaw

The biggest issues with Shafers classes was the inability to get the top recruits to contribute or even make it to campus and taking flyers on guys that probably weren't D1 talents at the bottom of his classes. He did give us our starting LBers and WRs for the last 4 years as well as our starting CBs and RB two-deep for the last couple seasons, including this upcoming year. Two 4 year Special teams guys and a few good lineman mixed in. His misses definitely outweigh the hits though. It's yet to be seen if Dino is recruiting higher caliber players at this point. The class rankings look good. The only guys he's recruited that have contributed significantly to this point were his dline recruits and grad transfer/juco kids. I definitely give him credit for quickly upgrading the dline when he came in, but Shafer recruited some good ones that ended up being criminals unfortunately. We wouldn't have been in such an awful position there if Ealey and Sheppard weren't kicked off the team/arrested.

There is one NFL draft pick in that bunch right now.
A 7th rounder who was a great college player.
Shafer wasn’t a good recruiter. He said he preferred diamonds in the rough. We hired a MAC HC for a P5 job.

He could be the greatest guy in the world but his hiring set us back.
Scott Shafer is Michael Scott.
He was a great coordinator like Michael was a great salesman but both were awful bosses.

 

[SoBristol]

He signed Hendrix, a 4* WR who gets here in the summer and brought in the transfer RB from Oklahoma and the transfer WR from mich st, both of which were 4* recruits and should make a big impact in 2019.

True -- but those transfers aren't eligible until Babers' 4th year, and Hendrix is a high 3 star (WR 77). With Babers' offense built on a pass happy attack, I expected he would be able to pull in better WR talent and be primed and ready in year 3.

 

[SoBristol]

The NFL draft speaks volumes of the recruiting prowess of the coaches. Robinson much better than FHCSS.

The NFL process, or the all-ACC teams, can be very misleading about a program's recruiting. That focus is on the very top of a class. Where Babers has been real good is with the depth of his classes -- recruiting a full class of 3 star prospects who actually make it here (unlike Shafer), and contribute early in our two-deep.

GROB showed you can land a few stars (Mike Williams, for example), still lose big, and leave the cupboard mostly bare except for a few top guys (Nassib, Pugh). That would be good recruiting by the NFL test, but otherwise -- not so much.

 

[orange_in_VA]

There is one NFL draft pick in that bunch right now.
A 7th rounder who was a great college player.
Shafer wasn’t a good recruiter. He said he preferred diamonds in the rough. We hired a MAC HC for a P5 job.

He could be the greatest guy in the world but his hiring set us back.
Scott Shafer is Michael Scott.
He was a great coordinator like Michael was a great salesman but both were awful bosses.

A lot of animosity to unpack here...

First of all, I don't care about how these kids do in the NFL, I care about their college production which is what they were recruited to SU to do. All of the guys I listed were/will continue to be producers in the ACC. I don't disagree his hiring set us back from the Marrone years. I listed the reasons why in regards to his recruiting. Too many misses. To act like he gave us absolutely nothing is dramatic in my opinion. What are you going to say about Babers if we go 4-8 again?

Babers is in year 3. The list of Shafers productive recruits I listed could possibly include 11 starters for this upcoming season. Babers definitely gets credit for coaching the team to wins over VT and Clemson, but Shafers recruits actually won those games.