The 3/4 vs 5 debate and/or excuse.

[SoBeCuse]

So, obviously this team is pretty anemic offensively. They make up for it with some refreshing fight, scrap, determination, and usually really good defense. BTW, we have fallen now to 106 in KP in AdjO efficiency. 142 now via teamrankings.com!

This brings me to my question. How many times are teams really playing 4-on-5 or better on offense. I would say very few. Very few teams IMO actually spread you out with four or five viable offensive threats and/or shooters at all times. Aren’t most teams two or three viable threats and some role players/scrubs? At times I can’t believe what I am watching with the offense. The amount of wasting time with a guard dribbling in one place before a high screen actually comes countered with players simply standing around is becoming unwatchable. We had numerous possessions ending up in a bad turnover, Frank getting himself trapped, a terrible shot/runner, or a shot clock violation. It truly looked like an exhibition game on offense and I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

So, I think the heavy minutes is starting to become evident. These are still relatively young players. Are they just SO behind the curve offensively/skill-wise like a Moyer, HW? Disappointing since Moyer was a Top 100 recruit. I think Oshae is so talented but is figuring things out still. Tyus is simply a scorer who plays recklessly. Frank is Frank. He’s becoming a good SG with good vision. His lack of speed is a MAJOR problem on offense as a PG I maintain as well as his handle (he could be called with a carry on every possession) but he is generally doing very well in the role he was given. IMO, if there were other options, any other major coach/program in the country would yank him from the PG role and put him in a different role. The turnovers, getting himself trapped/picking up dribble, not being able to turn the corner, are things you just can’t have. Obviously he has improved. I just think he would be great coming off the bench as a really good extra guard/combo. Maybe just Tyus, Oshae, and Frank just aren’t good enough yet to be consistently beating decent teams. One could argue that they should be producing more given the minutes they are playing. They still had 52 points yesterday combined. Not bad. Maybe the others are still so way behind the curve offensively? Maybe nothing truly different could be done and schemed offensively but I find that hard to believe. BTW, we had at least ANOTHER inbounding debacle where Frank couldn’t get it in I believe and had to call a TO.

I suppose this team is doing what they can given the lack of depth, Geno leaving, the Sidibe issue, etc. Hopefully they haven’t already peaked and it’s a holding on for dear life scenario the rest of the way to stay around the Bubble. I love watching the fight and scrap but it is becoming a real struggle to watch Syracuse play offense for years now. Teams with lesser talent consistently accomplish more on offense. ND is a must win.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

So, obviously this team is pretty anemic offensively. They make up for it with some refreshing fight, scrap, determination, and usually really good defense. BTW, we have fallen now to 106 in KP in AdjO efficiency. 142 now via teamrankings.com!

This brings me to my question. How many times are teams really playing 4-on-5 or better on offense. I would say very few. Very few teams IMO actually spread you out with four or five viable offensive threats and/or shooters at all times. Aren’t most teams two or three viable threats and some role players/scrubs? At times I can’t believe what I am watching with the offense. The amount of wasting time with a guard dribbling in one place before a high screen actually comes countered with players simply standing around is becoming unwatchable. We had numerous possessions ending up in a bad turnover, Frank getting himself trapped, a terrible shot/runner, or a shot clock violation. It truly looked like an exhibition game on offense and I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

So, I think the heavy minutes is starting to become evident. These are still relatively young players. Are they just SO behind the curve offensively/skill-wise like a Moyer, HW? Disappointing since Moyer was a Top 100 recruit. I think Oshae is so talented but is figuring things out still. Tyus is simply a scorer who plays recklessly. Frank is Frank. He’s becoming a good SG with good vision. His lack of speed is a MAJOR problem on offense as a PG I maintain as well as his handle (he could be called with a carry on every possession) but he is generally doing very well in the role he was given. IMO, if there were other options, any other major coach/program in the country would yank him from the PG role and put him in a different role. The turnovers, getting himself trapped/picking up dribble, not being able to turn the corner, are things you just can’t have. Obviously he has improved. I just think he would be great coming off the bench as a really good extra guard/combo. Maybe just Tyus, Oshae, and Frank just aren’t good enough yet to be consistently beating decent teams. One could argue that they should be producing more given the minutes they are playing. They still had 52 points yesterday combined. Not bad. Maybe the others are still so way behind the curve offensively? Maybe nothing truly different could be done and schemed offensively but I find that hard to believe. BTW, we had at least ANOTHER inbounding debacle where Frank couldn’t get it in I believe and had to call a TO.

I suppose this team is doing what they can given the lack of depth, Geno leaving, the Sidibe issue, etc. Hopefully they haven’t already peaked and it’s a holding on for dear life scenario the rest of the way to stay around the Bubble. I love watching the fight and scrap but it is becoming a real struggle to watch Syracuse play offense for years now. Teams with lesser talent consistently accomplish more on offense. ND is a must win.

Jesus. I got ripped a couple weeks ago for beating up on PC after his double double. You had best prepare yourself for some backlash here. Frank is far and away our most consistent and best player right now. Without him, we might be a .500 team at best.

by the way, we don't play 4 on 5 on offense. at best it's 3 on 5.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Jesus. I got ripped a couple weeks ago for beating up on PC after his double double. You had best prepare yourself for some backlash here. Frank is far and away our most consistent and best player right now. Without him, we might be a .500 team at best.

by the way, we don't play 4 on 5 on offense. at best it's 3 on 5.

My title did say 3 or 4 vs 5 on offense. Frank has become a pretty good scorer and shooter. He’s playing well. I just don’t think he is or will be a true PG despite what his numbers are. For this team he has done pretty much all he can do given his skill set and natural talent. He has improved a LOT. I really am not trying to bash him. It’s more about the talent as a whole (which isn’t chopped liver here), scheme, etc. on the offensive side on the ball. We had possessions last night which were a comedy of errors. The ones which were near TOs, cluster-fs, and the hot potato ones, were alarming. Just shouldn’t be seeing this from a major program.

 

[manleyzoo]

Frank is Frank. He’s becoming a good SG with good vision. His lack of speed is a MAJOR problem on offense as a PG I maintain as well as his handle (he could be called with a carry on every possession) but he is generally doing very well in the role he was given. IMO, if there were other options, any other major coach/program in the country would yank him from the PG role and put him in a different role. The turnovers, getting himself trapped/picking up dribble, not being able to turn the corner, are things you just can’t have. Obviously he has improved. I just think he would be great coming off the bench as a really good extra guard/combo.

Just want to see if I've got this straight: You want a guy who has the ball in his hands 40 minutes a game with 4 TO per (or 1 every 10 minutes of play), averages 16 ppg, shoots 42% from the floor - the highest of the three scorers, 37% from three - the highest of the three scorers, 72% FT, averages half of the team's per game assists - 4x the next closest guy...and you're complaining about his supposed lack of speed, he's a carrying dribbler and saying no other major coach/program would dare play him at PG? He'd be great as a third option, you say? This coming off a game that without his great PG play we lose by 20+. He's the team leader but ideally he should be coming off the bench?

Just checking to see if I've got this right...Here's the way I see this post: Axe, meet grinder. Nit, meet picker. Blinders, meet stats. Dam*n, meet faint praise.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Just want to see if I've got this straight: You want a guy who has the ball in his hands 40 minutes a game with 4 TO per (or 1 every 10 minutes of play), averages 16 ppg, shoots 42% from the floor - the highest of the three scorers, 37% from three - the highest of the three scorers, 72% FT, averages half of the team's per game assists - 4x the next closest guy...and you're complaining about his supposed lack of speed, he's a carrying dribbler and saying no other major coach/program would dare play him at PG? He'd be great as a third option, you say? This coming off a game that without his great PG play we lose by 20+. He's the team leader but ideally he should be coming off the bench?

Just checking to see if I've got this right...Here's the way I see this post: Axe, meet grinder. Nit, meet picker. Blinders, meet stats. Dam*n, meet faint praise.

Yes, precisely. Nice job .

 

[manleyzoo]

Yes, precisely. Nice job .

So by that reasoning you'd relegate Tyus to a 6th man role because he runs hot and cold and Brissett to a 7th man role because his shooting percentage is so poor? Can't start an inconsistent off guard and a power forward who can't shoot, right? Just checking.

 

[Cusefan0307]

My title did say 3 or 4 vs 5 on offense. Frank has become a pretty good scorer and shooter. He’s playing well. I just don’t think he is or will be a true PG despite what his numbers are. For this team he has done pretty much all he can do given his skill set and natural talent. He has improved a LOT. I really am not trying to bash him. It’s more about the talent as a whole (which isn’t chopped liver here), scheme, etc. on the offensive side on the ball. We had possessions last night which were a comedy of errors. The ones which were near TOs, cluster-fs, and the hot potato ones, were alarming. Just shouldn’t be seeing this from a major program.

You’re going to have fun next year when Frank is the pg on one of the most talented teams in the country.

I think you need to ask yourself what Franks Assist to turnover ratio would be if our guys caught and finished some of his passes that they consistently drop.

 

[SoBeCuse]

You’re going to have fun next year when Frank is the pg on one of the most talented teams in the country.

I think you need to ask yourself what Franks Assist to turnover ratio would be if our guys caught and finished some of his passes that they consistently drop.

That’s a factor for sure. Still, he’d be much more effective handling the ball a lot less and passing more since he does have some good vision for a 2G. On a really good team where he doesn’t have to force it I think he would be fine especially as a secondary ballhandler.

This isn’t about Frank but more how we have evolved to this point as an offensive program/identity. RF illustrates some of this in the HW-Deer in Headlights thread.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

That’s a factor. He’d be much more effective handling the ball a lot less and passing more since he does have some good vision for a 2G. On a really good team where he doesn’t have to force it I think he would be fine especially as a secondary ballhandler.

This isn’t about Frank but more how we have evolved to this point as an offensive program/identity. RF illustrates some of this in the HW-Deer in Headlights thread.

If you had used many less words describing Frank's faults, then you could legitimately say it wasn't about Frank. But it was. I think your underlying issue is that JB recruits for the zone, and not trying to get the best player for each position.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Frank is Mike Gbinije 2.0. It might not always be pretty, but he’s effective.

 

[two3zone]

Jesus. I got ripped a couple weeks ago for beating up on PC after his double double. You had best prepare yourself for some backlash here. Frank is far and away our most consistent and best player right now. Without him, we might be a .500 team at best.

by the way, we don't play 4 on 5 on offense. at best it's 3 on 5.

I'll go as far as saying we're below .500 or have 2-3 wins without Frank.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Frank is Mike Gbinije 2.0. It might not always be pretty, but he’s effective.

That's an interesting comparison I hadn't thought of. This success JB is having converting bigger guys to play PG may lead to continued repetition in the future.

 

[SoBeCuse]

If you had used many less words describing Frank's faults, then you could legitimately say it wasn't about Frank. But it was. I think your underlying issue is that JB recruits for the zone, and not trying to get the best player for each position.

Again, this isn’t merely about Frank. He’s a part of it as is everyone. No doubt the team would be in dire straits if he didn’t play as well to date.

 

[SoBeCuse]

That's an interesting comparison I hadn't thought of. This success JB is having converting bigger guys to play PG may lead to continued repetition in the future.

Frank has better vision, IMO. Gbinijie was quite a bit quicker I think even at 6’7. He certainly played ‘downhill’ more.

 

[Trueblue25]

Frank’s a 2 playing the 1. He’s expanding his game and its the only reason we’re competitive. That and moyers/brissetts rebounding.

Battles playing like a shot chucking 3 when we need him to be an ACC level 2. He’s gotta adjust or he’ll just be another name that went to the draft from a bad Syracuse team.

 

[Trueblue25]

Frank’s a 2 playing the 1. He’s expanding his game and its the only reason we’re competitive. That and moyers/brissetts rebounding.

Battles playing like a shot chucking 3 when we need him to be an ACC level 2. He’s gotta adjust or he’ll just be another name that went to the draft from a bad Syracuse team.

Forgot to add. We’re a 3 vs 5 offense because we have 1 guard instead of 2 in for 38-40 minutes of the game. Chukwu, Moyer and Dolezaj can score, Battle and Brissett just dont look for them and it kills our flow. They shoot when they’re open. They force when they’re forced to. Then they force when they’re not forced to.

 

[malpearl31]

Frank’s a 2 playing the 1. He’s expanding his game and its the only reason we’re competitive. That and moyers/brissetts rebounding.

Battles playing like a shot chucking 3 when we need him to be an ACC level 2. He’s gotta adjust or he’ll just be another name that went to the draft from a bad Syracuse team.

Frank has (mostly) played pretty well this year. Turnovers have been his biggest negative - but given how much of the ball-handling load he's been asked to carry, it's difficult to get too upset about it.

I agree with you that Frank is really more of a traditional 2 than a 1 - I think if we had both Tyus and Frank coming off of screens away from the ball, that would make us more dangerous on offense. But Boeheim doesn't seem to trust the 3-guard lineup - and I suspect that's because he fears the hit to our defense would outweigh the improvement on offense. Moving Tyus to the forward spot in the 2-3 zone doesn't appear to be something Boeheim is comfortable with - likely because of what that would do to us rebounding-wise.

 

[rrlbees]

So, obviously this team is pretty anemic offensively. They make up for it with some refreshing fight, scrap, determination, and usually really good defense. BTW, we have fallen now to 106 in KP in AdjO efficiency. 142 now via teamrankings.com!

This brings me to my question. How many times are teams really playing 4-on-5 or better on offense. I would say very few. Very few teams IMO actually spread you out with four or five viable offensive threats and/or shooters at all times. Aren’t most teams two or three viable threats and some role players/scrubs? At times I can’t believe what I am watching with the offense. The amount of wasting time with a guard dribbling in one place before a high screen actually comes countered with players simply standing around is becoming unwatchable. We had numerous possessions ending up in a bad turnover, Frank getting himself trapped, a terrible shot/runner, or a shot clock violation. It truly looked like an exhibition game on offense and I don’t think I’m exaggerating.

So, I think the heavy minutes is starting to become evident. These are still relatively young players. Are they just SO behind the curve offensively/skill-wise like a Moyer, HW? Disappointing since Moyer was a Top 100 recruit. I think Oshae is so talented but is figuring things out still. Tyus is simply a scorer who plays recklessly. Frank is Frank. He’s becoming a good SG with good vision. His lack of speed is a MAJOR problem on offense as a PG I maintain as well as his handle (he could be called with a carry on every possession) but he is generally doing very well in the role he was given. IMO, if there were other options, any other major coach/program in the country would yank him from the PG role and put him in a different role. The turnovers, getting himself trapped/picking up dribble, not being able to turn the corner, are things you just can’t have. Obviously he has improved. I just think he would be great coming off the bench as a really good extra guard/combo. Maybe just Tyus, Oshae, and Frank just aren’t good enough yet to be consistently beating decent teams. One could argue that they should be producing more given the minutes they are playing. They still had 52 points yesterday combined. Not bad. Maybe the others are still so way behind the curve offensively? Maybe nothing truly different could be done and schemed offensively but I find that hard to believe. BTW, we had at least ANOTHER inbounding debacle where Frank couldn’t get it in I believe and had to call a TO.

I suppose this team is doing what they can given the lack of depth, Geno leaving, the Sidibe issue, etc. Hopefully they haven’t already peaked and it’s a holding on for dear life scenario the rest of the way to stay around the Bubble. I love watching the fight and scrap but it is becoming a real struggle to watch Syracuse play offense for years now. Teams with lesser talent consistently accomplish more on offense. ND is a must win.

God bless you.

 

[Brooky03]

We don't have low post scoring. Without that, an offense can't achieve balance. Chukwu will catch random dump-offs and get some putbacks, but he's not a low post threat. Nobody is. Brissett could probably develop a back-to-basket game, but that's not happening this season. Couple that with a lack of outside shooting and you're not left with much. In the halfcourt, the team's options are either to drive to the rim or pullup for a midrange shot. It's predictable and there's nothing they can really do to help that.

The only offensive scheme that would be effective for this team is to run, run, run, run, run. Can't do that with such a short bench, though. So the other option is to try to hold teams to all-time low field goal percentages, keep the score in the 50's until we can pull out the trunk monkey press and hopefully hit a couple big shots to seal the win. It sucks but that's where we're at.

 

[SoBeCuse]

God bless you.

Mazel tov!

 

[two3zone]

Frank’s a 2 playing the 1. He’s expanding his game and its the only reason we’re competitive. That and moyers/brissetts rebounding.

Battles playing like a shot chucking 3 when we need him to be an ACC level 2. He’s gotta adjust or he’ll just be another name that went to the draft from a bad Syracuse team.

He's been playing or practicing as a 1 for 3 years. He's a point guard at this point.

 

[Trueblue25]

He's been playing or practicing as a 1 for 3 years. He's a point guard at this point.

Thats fine, he’s succeeding

 

[dasher]

Frank’s a 2 playing the 1. He’s expanding his game and its the only reason we’re competitive. That and moyers/brissetts rebounding.

Battles playing like a shot chucking 3 when we need him to be an ACC level 2. He’s gotta adjust or he’ll just be another name that went to the draft from a bad Syracuse team.

Seeing that you say Battle play badly last, he is the focus of your ire. Battle is the best player on the team. How many wins would we have without him?

 

[Trueblue25]

Seeing that you say Battle play badly last, he is the focus of your ire. Battle is the best player on the team. How many wins would we have without him?

My ire?

Battle is the best player on the team. Its a shame he’s trending towards being a black hole instead of the player we all know he is and can be. Hope he adjusts, the team will certainly be better for it.

 

[Trueblue25]

And how many wins would we have without battle?


How many wins would we have without any one player of the six that see significant time? We’re bone thin. Can’t afford for our best player to be so one dimensional despite how talented he is