The ACC Invite: From Pitt's Perspective

[HtownOrange]

The fact that Rutgers or UConn would have been invited is reason to celebrate Pitt in the ACC. Never thought I'd be happy they were a member but I am now.

This. Our long history with Pitt makes it icing on the cake from an SU point of view.

 

[orange79]

Your looking at it from the point of view as to what's good for Syracuse.

Well, yeah.

You're basically arguing that Rutgers was better for the B1G than Syracuse.

I wasn't even bringing Dumpster Fire U into it. They are better for the Yankee Conference than anything else. They were just lucky to be located where they are. Period.

There is no giant land grant university in New York and Syracuse has largely filled that vacuum in regards to sports fans affiliations.

Correct. But again, a conference is more than a collection of athletic teams. Syracuse does not fit with large land grant schools.

We are right where we belong. I think I may need to add this to my signature.

 

[Hoo's That]

Delaney made a colossal mistake by not making Syracuse his prime eastern expansion target. Had he got Syracuse and Maryland, Pitt would likely gone to the Big12 with WV. That would have left the ACC to consider Rutgers and UCONN, which I think would be an emphatic NO. At that point the B1G would have shut the door on the ACC and owned the northeast as well as the midwest. Now the Northeast is split up and the ACC has the better brands. And the Orange would have been able to compete in the B!g after a short period of adjustment whereas Rutgers and Maryland look out of place. At that point I think ND would have become a B1G member at some level or maybe a full member.

ND wants less than no part of the B1G. Apparently, there's a lot of bad history. If you go to their hard-core board, you'd see they are pi$$ed that their hockey team is forced to play in the B1G (and have the "B1G" logo on their unis) because something happened to Hockey East. Their alums largely live in the Northeast, Florida, and Chicago. That makes them consider themselves an East Coast school that just happens to be in the Midwest. That's also why they were in the Big East for the time that they were. Unless and until they get shut out of the CFP in a year they believe they deserve a bid because a conference champion was taken over them, they will not join any conference for football. This idea overrides any argument any outsider may try to make about "what I think makes sense". The B1G would/actually did insist on their joining for football as well; we did not , so they joined the ACC. If they join a conference for football before 2026 (and maybe it's now 2036 because of the ACCN) they must join the ACC per their agreement to join for the Olympic sports, and they have no problems doing that because they feel very comfortable in the ACC. There's a very remote possibility they may join for football as the Baby Boomers die off, but that's very remote.

As one of our board gurus has repeatedly said, Texas was offered the "ND Deal" by the ACC before it was offered to ND and turned it down. They won't turn it down if offered again. The Big XII can't enforce the Grant of Rights against Texas if they've been disbanded. And there's absolutely no freaking way that UMass, UConn, or any school east of the Mississippi has more to offer the ACC than Texas does. Don't ignore the Longhorns as a potential #16.

CousCuse, you put a lot of thought into your posts. The problem you face in these discussions is everyone connected with ND has a totally different thought process than you do when it comes to what to do with football.

 

[CousCuse]

Well, yeah.

I wasn't even bringing Dumpster Fire U into it. They are better for the Yankee Conference than anything else. They were just lucky to be located where they are. Period.

Correct. But again, a conference is more than a collection of athletic teams. Syracuse does not fit with large land grant schools.

We are right where we belong. I think I may need to add this to my signature.

When they can't come up with the money to retain Babers, then you might reconsider your tag line.

 

[Bayside44]

50 miliion >>>30 million. I know JB is brilliant so I don;t think he could have not realized this.

We would draw no fans in any of those locales and we don't recruit students from dying rust belt areas.

For as bad a fit as Maryland has proven we'd be 100x worse.

 

[CousCuse]

ND wants less than no part of the B1G. Apparently, there's a lot of bad history. If you go to their hard-core board, you'd see they are pi$$ed that their hockey team is forced to play in the B1G (and have the "B1G" logo on their unis) because something happened to Hockey East. Their alums largely live in the Northeast, Florida, and Chicago. That makes them consider themselves an East Coast school that just happens to be in the Midwest. That's also why they were in the Big East for the time that they were. Unless and until they get shut out of the CFP in a year they believe they deserve a bid because a conference champion was taken over them, they will not join any conference for football. This idea overrides any argument any outsider may try to make about "what I think makes sense". The B1G would/actually did insist on their joining for football as well; we did not , so they joined the ACC. If they join a conference for football before 2026 (and maybe it's now 2036 because of the ACCN) they must join the ACC per their agreement to join for the Olympic sports, and they have no problems doing that because they fell very comfortable in the ACC. There's a very remote possibility they may join for football as the Baby Boomers die off, but that's very remote.

As one of our board gurus has repeatedly said, Texas was offered the "ND Deal" by the ACC before it was offered to ND and turned it down. They won't turn it down if offered again. The Big XII can't enforce the Grant of Rights against Texas if they've been disbanded. And there's absolutely no freaking way that UMass, UConn, or any school east of the Mississippi has more to offer the ACC than Texas does. Don't ignore the Longhorns as a potential #16.

CousCuse, you put a lot of thought into your posts. The problem you face in these discussions is everyone connected with ND has a totally different thought process than you do when it comes to what to do with football.

There wouldn't have been a viable alternative for Notre Dame if the expansion went as I suggested. Maybe they would have went with the Big12. That seems like an odd coupling. Maybe if the Big took SU and Maryland then BC could have joined with ND to make 16. Again this is from the point of view of the B1G maximizing their footprint and overall demographics.

 

[orange79]

When they can't come up with the money to retain Babers, then you might reconsider your tag line.

You have your opinion and I have mine. That's fine. That's what this board is for.

Mine isn't going to change. We belong in the ACC, for better or worse.

 

[HtownOrange]

Your looking at it from the point of view as to what's good for Syracuse. I was taking the point of view as to what would have been better for the B1G. You're basically arguing that Rutgers was better for the B1G than Syracuse. I think what is good for the Syracuse athletic department is to maximize the revenue, which going to the B1G would have achieved. There is no giant land grant university in New York and Syracuse has largely filled that vacuum in regards to sports fans affiliations.

The B1G screwed the pooch when the only took Nebraska and stayed at 12. Pitt and SU were both voted on, as was Mizzou and a few others. There were at least two dozens schools in consideration, some more seriously than others. Pitt, SU and Mizzou (heavily named) were the most likely candidates outside of Nebraska but could not garner enough votes. PSU and the eastern schools (read tOSU, UM and MState) wanted more east teams. The western schools had no interest in SU or Pitt. Delaney assumed the ACC was too weak to do anything.

After this, the B1G began to more seriously consider UVA, UNC, GATech and Miami. This was virtually all B1G fantasy as the southern schools would prefer their ACC then SEC over the B1G, all day, every day. The B1G was still playing with the northeastern schools (Rutgers included) but was in no hurry because they mistakenly believed that the ACC was too weak to do anything and that Pitt, SU and others would be there anytime they came calling.

Neither SU nor Pitt fit the B1G formula, as noted above, the B1G is made up of large, land grant schools, except Northwestern (which survives probably due to history/long term relationships). However, both offered the history in major sports, dedication to academics and loyal fans. there were not many other schools on eh B1G list that met these requirements.

You assertion that SU would be better than Rutgers and Maryland for the B1G is probably correct; however, the assertion that the B1G would be better for SU than the ACC is a stretch. I understand you concept of maximizing revenue for the AD, but you are using skewed numbers and are simply ignoring many other facts that are not the #1 consideration but are important and influential. Example: the SU fanbase is mostly located on the eastern seaboard, playing in the ACC guarantees easier access to SU alumni than does the midwestern conference. The ACC is located in nearly all of the SU recruiting grounds, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, et cetera are not exactly prime recruiting territory for SU. I could go on, but the point is made.

One last point, don't be fooled by the numbers that get published regarding conference revenues unless you know what you are comparing. For instance, the B1G payouts COULD get to $50MM - down the road, but they don't show you that they share gate revenue (a major boon for Rutgers! but a loss for UM, tOSU and others); this means that they pay gate revenue into the B1G which then re-distributes the gate revenue. If the ACC, or any other conference did the same, their payouts would immediately realize a big jump! In truth, ACC teams siply keep their gate revenues and the payout is more accurate in the ACC, even though it looks smaller, the gap is NOT as big as talking heads pretend. The same applies to conferences that share apparel/souvenir sales.

 

[CousCuse]

You have your opinion and I have mine. That's fine. That's what this board is for.

Mine isn't going to change. We belong in the ACC, for better or worse.

I like the ACC, I wouldn't be afraid of Syracuse sports being in the B1G. Syracuse always has and always will compete at the highest levels of competition, and always excelled.

 

[HtownOrange]

Well, yeah.

I wasn't even bringing Dumpster Fire U into it. They are better for the Yankee Conference than anything else. They were just lucky to be located where they are. Period.

You are a great poster and an even better Orange fan. I respect you very much, but I fail to understand why you are hating on the Yankee Conference so bad.

 

[orange79]

You are a great poster and an even better Orange fan. I respect you very much, but I fail to understand why you are hating on the Yankee Conference so bad.

Well, Rutgers and UConn could rekindle their storied rivalry there.

 

[CousCuse]

The B1G screwed the pooch when the only took Nebraska and stayed at 12. Pitt and SU were both voted on, as was Mizzou and a few others. There were at least two dozens schools in consideration, some more seriously than others. Pitt, SU and Mizzou (heavily named) were the most likely candidates outside of Nebraska but could not garner enough votes. PSU and the eastern schools (read tOSU, UM and MState) wanted more east teams. The western schools had no interest in SU or Pitt. Delaney assumed the ACC was too weak to do anything.

After this, the B1G began to more seriously consider UVA, UNC, GATech and Miami. This was virtually all B1G fantasy as the southern schools would prefer their ACC then SEC over the B1G, all day, every day. The B1G was still playing with the northeastern schools (Rutgers included) but was in no hurry because they mistakenly believed that the ACC was too weak to do anything and that Pitt, SU and others would be there anytime they came calling.

Neither SU nor Pitt fit the B1G formula, as noted above, the B1G is made up of large, land grant schools, except Northwestern (which survives probably due to history/long term relationships). However, both offered the history in major sports, dedication to academics and loyal fans. there were not many other schools on eh B1G list that met these requirements.

You assertion that SU would be better than Rutgers and Maryland for the B1G is probably correct; however, the assertion that the B1G would be better for SU than the ACC is a stretch. I understand you concept of maximizing revenue for the AD, but you are using skewed numbers and are simply ignoring many other facts that are not the #1 consideration but are important and influential. Example: the SU fanbase is mostly located on the eastern seaboard, playing in the ACC guarantees easier access to SU alumni than does the midwestern conference. The ACC is located in nearly all of the SU recruiting grounds, Wisconsin, Nebraska, Iowa, et cetera are not exactly prime recruiting territory for SU. I could go on, but the point is made.

One last point, don't be fooled by the numbers that get published regarding conference revenues unless you know what you are comparing. For instance, the B1G payouts COULD get to $50MM - down the road, but they don't show you that they share gate revenue (a major boon for Rutgers! but a loss for UM, tOSU and others); this means that they pay gate revenue into the B1G which then re-distributes the gate revenue. If the ACC, or any other conference did the same, their payouts would immediately realize a big jump! In truth, ACC teams siply keep their gate revenues and the payout is more accurate in the ACC, even though it looks smaller, the gap is NOT as big as talking heads pretend. The same applies to conferences that share apparel/souvenir sales.

My central point is that Delaney made a huge tactical error in not targeting Syracuse. I'm saying SU instead of Rutgers, not Maryland. If he had got SU and MU, the ACC might have been taken apart by the SEC and the Big12.

 

[HtownOrange]

My central point is that Delaney made a huge tactical error in not targeting Syracuse. I'm saying SU instead of Rutgers, not Maryland. If he had got SU and MU, the ACC might have been taken apart by the SEC and the Big12.

Delaney did target SU, and Pitt and Mizzou as a means of going to 14 or 16. The failure was in the Big schools not getting the large majority to invite any of these three, not even Kansas. It think the required vote for expansion was 75-90%, only UNL carried that much weight. No other schools were in as serious contention at the time. ND and UT were pipe dreams at that time. All other schools had less to offer than Mizzou, SU and Pitt for various reasons.

Maryland was not a serious candidate until the ACC made their move. NOTE: Maryland is realizing the deal is not as good as they thought.

 

[CousCuse]

Delaney did target SU, and Pitt and Mizzou as a means of going to 14 or 16. The failure was in the Big schools not getting the large majority to invite any of these three, not even Kansas. It think the required vote for expansion was 75-90%, only UNL carried that much weight. No other schools were in as serious contention at the time. ND and UT were pipe dreams at that time. All other schools had less to offer than Mizzou, SU and Pitt for various reasons.

Maryland was not a serious candidate until the ACC made their move. NOTE: Maryland is realizing the deal is not as good as they thought.

Those are failures by Delaney, he is/was the commissioner. Do you think the schools in the B1G like having the albatross of Rutgers hung around their neck?

 

[HtownOrange]

Those are failures by Delaney, he is/was the commissioner. Do you think the schools in the B1G like having the albatross of Rutgers hung around their neck?

You point of view that Delaney failed is a fair perspective. My perspective is that Delaney did not fail. Had he had his way, he would have gone to 16 (possibly 20, and there were rumors that 24 was in the discussions). An expansion to 16 would likely have included Mizzou, Pitt and SU with probably Kansas (as UNL was already a part of the expansion). This would have encompassed the most valuable teams then available, destroyed the Big East and included about 30MM viewers.

The failure is on the B1G schools for not having foresight to expand when they had teh chance, but they believed their own press, specifically that the B1G was in the driver seat, teams would be there for the pickings and they could take anyone they wanted. This lead to the fantasies of ND and UT (possibly OU and Kansas +1) and the east coast version (UVA, UNC, GATech, Miami). The fantasied flopped big time. The ACC and the Big12 survived and the B1G knee jerk reacted, probably due more to UMD breeching confidentiality and letting teh B1G know that PSU was looking east (which would have been a major blow to the BTN and enhanced the ACC that much more). In their knee jerk reaction, they lost the cream of the expansion candidates (ND refused them repeatedly, UT and OU locked up the Big 12, SU and Pitt went east, Mizzou went south.

As to your last question, I think we all agree that the B1G heavily regrets the Rutgers invite. Other than the built in FCS body-bag game repelacement, Rutgers provides little to the B1G. Many people thought that being close to NYC would be incentive for the midwestern teams to visit, it does to some extent, but most people don't care to visit NYC often due to costs and no other ties than visiting the city to say the visited the city and caught their team playing in Jersey, once is enough. While SU and the ACC has many ties to NYC, the Midwestern states relate better to Chicago.

 

[CousCuse]

You point of view that Delaney failed is a fair perspective. My perspective is that Delaney did not fail. Had he had his way, he would have gone to 16 (possibly 20, and there were rumors that 24 was in the discussions). An expansion to 16 would likely have included Mizzou, Pitt and SU with probably Kansas (as UNL was already a part of the expansion). This would have encompassed the most valuable teams then available, destroyed the Big East and included about 30MM viewers.

The failure is on the B1G schools for not having foresight to expand when they had teh chance, but they believed their own press, specifically that the B1G was in the driver seat, teams would be there for the pickings and they could take anyone they wanted. This lead to the fantasies of ND and UT (possibly OU and Kansas +1) and the east coast version (UVA, UNC, GATech, Miami). The fantasied flopped big time. The ACC and the Big12 survived and the B1G knee jerk reacted, probably due more to UMD breeching confidentiality and letting teh B1G know that PSU was looking east (which would have been a major blow to the BTN and enhanced the ACC that much more). In their knee jerk reaction, they lost the cream of the expansion candidates (ND refused them repeatedly, UT and OU locked up the Big 12, SU and Pitt went east, Mizzou went south.

As to your last question, I think we all agree that the B1G heavily regrets the Rutgers invite. Other than the built in FCS body-bag game repelacement, Rutgers provides little to the B1G. Many people thought that being close to NYC would be incentive for the midwestern teams to visit, it does to some extent, but most people don't care to visit NYC often due to costs and no other ties than visiting the city to say the visited the city and caught their team playing in Jersey, once is enough. While SU and the ACC has many ties to NYC, the Midwestern states relate better to Chicago.

PSU was definitely calling the shot, that was apparent for outsiders. So, the eastern expansion was a fact. And it happened. And now the most storied and powerful conference( Their Hype) has RUTGERS as a proud member. Someone should ask Herby about that.

 

[nzm136]

Ask the members of the Big 10 who they would prefer Pitt or RU. I know PSU wanted playmates from the east and they still would have either RU or Maryland to pound on. Pitt, by far, would have been the better choice if the Big 10 was picking between Pitt vs RU or Maryland. Pitt was a true free agent, RU and Maryland were and are in huge debt.

No. The real question is ask a member of the B1G who they would prefer, PSU or Pitt. They chose PSU.

In a vacuum, sure, Pitt is better, but pretending like this decision was made in a vacuum is crazy. Both Jim Delaney and Barry Alvarez said that the decision was made to placate PSU and keep them from jumping to another eastern conference (the ACC). The questions were: 1) do we want to keep PSU? 2) What would make PSU happy? 3) Are they worth that cost?

Now put yourself in PSU's position. Why on God's green earth would they want to elevate their most hated rival (Pitt)? It was never about pounding people into submission. It was about holding people down (Pitt), and recruiting students, athletes, and donors out of their sweet spots (NYC - Philly - DMV).

(Look at where PSU students come from. Look at where their donors live. Look at where their athletes come from.)

EDIT: There are several stories about the PSU jumping thing. One is from ESPN. The other is from a newspaper in MKE.

 

[nzm136]

There was a promise. But the reason Syracuse got the promise was because it had been at the top of the ACC wish list since 1990.

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I think you might be interested in...

 

[SU2NASA]

Those are failures by Delaney, he is/was the commissioner. Do you think the schools in the B1G like having the albatross of Rutgers hung around their neck?

Traditional B1G fans 100% hate Maryland and Rutgers in the conference, 30% hate Nebraska, 5,000% hate Penn State

 

[CousCuse]

Traditional B1G fans 100% hate Maryland and Rutgers in the conference, 30% hate Nebraska, 5,000% hate Penn State

But they love that money and stature that comes with it.

 

[HtownOrange]

But they love that money and stature that comes with it.

Not to nitpik, but I think you mean they WILL love the money if/when they get it. They are still in their buy-in and do not get a full share yet.

Still, it isn't enough to cover the annual deficit they run - before stealing from the students funds, the state and school funds. And not even dreamable of ever paying back the 1/2 Billion $ they have wasted over the last decade or two.

 

[CousCuse]

Not to nitpik, but I think you mean they WILL love the money if/when they get it. They are still in their buy-in and do not get a full share yet.

Still, it isn't enough to cover the annual deficit they run - before stealing from the students funds, the state and school funds. And not even dreamable of ever paying back the 1/2 Billion $ they have wasted over the last decade or two.

I was referring to how the old timey B1G schools love all that money, which they wouldn't be getting if it weren't for the expansion that let in the riff-raff.

 

[HtownOrange]

I was referring to how the old timey B1G schools love all that money, which they wouldn't be getting if it weren't for the expansion that let in the riff-raff.

Got it.

 

[Chip]

We are right where we belong. I think I may need to add this to my signature.

Your signature line is approaching the level of when JHJ used to have the entire Col. Jessup testimony from A Few Good Men.

 

[orange79]

Your signature line is approaching the level of when JHJ used to have the entire Col. Jessup testimony from A Few Good Men.

Couldn't decide which one to get rid of.

It will never approach the size of OttoinGrotto's.