The ACC Invite: From Pitt's Perspective

[nzm136]

Traditional B1G fans 100% hate Maryland and Rutgers in the conference, 30% hate Nebraska, 5,000% hate Penn State

TRUTH

 

[Delmar]

Various thoughts about what has been said upstream.
Pitt never goes to the B1G. Penn State would have vetoed it.
If not the ACC, Pitt would have gone to the BIG 12: a match with WVU.
We would have gone to the B1G if offered, the money is too good, but we are so much better off in the ACC.
UConn lost the game of musical chairs. I'm okay with that.

 

[blust2i3d4]

There's no way UConn or RU > Pitt, and I doubt that there was a SU promise. We were picked because we were the best available option, not because of a promise.

UConn is not AAU school. Both Rutgers and Pitt are. But Rutgers is just so bad on football and basketball. So Pitt is the obvious choice. By the way, I hope in long term Syracuse gets its medical school back and regains AAU status.

 

[blust2i3d4]

No. They would not have. A conference is more than just athletic teams. It is the entire university. And Syracuse fits very poorly with huge, mega-landgrant state schools. Frankly, I'm surprised Northwestern has managed to survive all these years.

Would SU have been able to compete athletically? Maybe. Probably. Who knows?

We are right where we belong.

Northwest should and would have phased out like University of Chicago if they are not in top 10 academically.

 

[Crusty]

Your looking at it from the point of view as to what's good for Syracuse. I was taking the point of view as to what would have been better for the B1G. You're basically arguing that Rutgers was better for the B1G than Syracuse. I think what is good for the Syracuse athletic department is to maximize the revenue, which going to the B1G would have achieved. There is no giant land grant university in New York and Syracuse has largely filled that vacuum in regards to sports fans affiliations.

Actually, Cornell is one of three private land grant universities in the US.

 

[sutomcat]

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I think you might be interested in...

Wow. You really don’t know what you are talking about.

 

[omniorange]

In 2010 the B1G wanted three teams, Texas, ND, and one of TAMU or Nebraska. This is what was actually discussed at the CIC meeting held at the AAU conference in April or May of that year including a nice power point presentation, or so I am told. Delany believed no one would turn down an invite from the B1G. He soon learned differently.

TAMU wanted no part of it, just like they didn't want any part of the PAC a month or so later. Their aspirations were the SEC or remain in the B12. Texas was curious about the B1G, but not enough to remove their request for TTU to replace TAMU in a "package" deal of at least two teams in Texas, knowing the B1G would not likely agree to TTU. ND was not enthused at all, but since Texas was showing some interest they didn't out right scuttle it from the beginning. ND was worried about the dissolution of the Big East and even though their fans kept insisting for years that if the split ever did occur, the Irish would simply go with the Catholic schools, the truth was obvious to everyone else that outside of maybe basketball, the rest of their olympic sports would suffer. ND's football revenues basically fund those non-revenue sports so the Irish administration was going to want a good home for those sports outside the Catholic League. Which is why ND held on even longer than Texas in terms of entertaining B1G expansion. To this day I still believe the report out of Indianapolis in June 2010 which indicated that the B1G expansion to 12 would be Nebraska alone and if the league expanded beyond 12 it would likely be ND, Maryland, Rutgers, and SU. PSU (or should I say JoePa) wanted Maryland and us, Delany wanted Rutgers. And most wanted the Irish. Reports are the Irish preferred Pitt to Rutgers but that Delany reportedly said if Pitt took any spot it would be Syracuse's. Expansion to 16 basically blew up and they decided to only expand to 12 with Nebraska.

The B1G did indeed kick off this frenzy in late 2009, as the Pitt article indicates, but this meeting that took place between Pitt admins, ND admins, and the Big East Commissioner to develop a way to hold the Big East together is questionable at best. Obviously the relatively new commissioner would need to play a big role but does anyone truly believe Pitt and/or ND were capable of persuading the other football schools to stay committed or be able to soothe the egos of the basketball schools if they needed to implement something they wouldn't necessarily want? Let's be realistic here, again outside the commissioner there is ONE school and ONLY one school in the Big East that could ever get both sides to agree on anything and that was SU. Which is why I have stated on here in the past that there was a pact between Pitt, SU, and ND that they would either make a go of it in the Big East or go to a different conference either together or separately, preferably together.

Now I have no doubt the top two ideas discussed by Pitt, ND, and SU to strengthen the case (not that this would have guaranteed anything) for the football schools to stay committed to the Big East were:

1) strengthen the football of the conference by getting to 9/10 members (which led to TCU being invited - with Pitt and ND leading that charge although for some reason the Eers' fans kept crediting Mr. Awesome Oliver Luck) and

2) getting a better TV contract (possibly with a grant of rights attached?), but Georgetown, Pitt, and a few others thought ESPN had low-balled the contract (though it was a nice increase) and hoped NBC would go higher.

Anyway we all know what happened next in late summer early Fall 2011 - SEC willing to take TAMU so long as no Big 12 school threatens a lawsuit. ACC invites SU and Pitt (ND's Swarbrick takes a swipe at both about not taking into account the "greater good"). TCU asks for its release from the Big East (which they were scheduled to join the following Fall 2012) so they could go to the Big 12. Mizzou is invited to the SEC. WVU is invited to the Big 12 (since Pitt option taken off the table by ACC taking Pitt) and sues Big East to be allowed to withdraw much sooner than contractually obligated to do. ND joins the ACC as a partial member. Maryland and Rutgers join the B1G (which is in line with that 2010 report out of Indianapolis). Louisville replaces Maryland in the ACC.

For the record, the $7.5 million exit fee from the Big East mentioned in the Pitt article was actually negotiated by SU with the Big East conference in private about a week before Pitt got the same deal. They didn't need to go the public route at all of a lawsuit and grandstanding like they did.

Lastly, the hybrid Big East was created precisely because the basketball schools didn't want to lose SU and when SU left the building, the hybrid lasted one more year in what basically amounted to its death throes. Long live the ACC and Long Live the Catholic Big East basketball conference. The AAC can rot.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[Delmar]

Those are failures by Delaney, he is/was the commissioner. Do you think the schools in the B1G like having the albatross of Rutgers hung around their neck?

Delaney is hardly my favorite person, but this can't be hung on him. The villain is the Virginia legislature that blew this whole thing up and insisted that VT be invited in (against the wishes of UVA.) Although it must be said that Missouri was dying for a B1G invitation. I don't know how seriously they were ever considering the ACC. It was far down their list. They are quite happy in their second choice, the SEC.

As for Rutgers, the B1G chose them unwisely. They may have buyers remorse, but they chose Rutgers over many other options.

 

[CousCuse]

Delaney is hardly my favorite person, but this can't be hung on him. The villain is the Virginia legislature that blew this whole thing up and insisted that VT be invited in (against the wishes of UVA.) Although it must be said that Missouri was dying for a B1G invitation. I don't know how seriously they were ever considering the ACC. It was far down their list. They are quite happy in their second choice, the SEC.

As for Rutgers, the B1G chose them unwisely. They may have buyers remorse, but they chose Rutgers over many other options.

They chose Rutgers because their first in importance reason for expanding was to appease PSU, who wanted eastern expansion.

 

[TerryD]

There wouldn't have been a viable alternative for Notre Dame if the expansion went as I suggested. Maybe they would have went with the Big12. That seems like an odd coupling. Maybe if the Big took SU and Maryland then BC could have joined with ND to make 16. Again this is from the point of view of the B1G maximizing their footprint and overall demographics.

The Big 12 was open to a partial ND membership, with football remaining independent.

ND would have picked a partial membership with the Big 12 over a full membership in the Big Ten.

 

[CousCuse]

The Big 12 was open to a partial ND membership, with football remaining independent.

ND would have picked a partial membership with the Big 12 over a full membership in the Big Ten.

The Big12, really. I would have liked to see that. The more you Golden Domers dig in your heels, the more it aligns the conferences and their voters against you.

 

[Hoo's That]

Delaney is hardly my favorite person, but this can't be hung on him. The villain is the Virginia legislature that blew this whole thing up and insisted that VT be invited in (against the wishes of UVA.) Although it must be said that Missouri was dying for a B1G invitation. I don't know how seriously they were ever considering the ACC. It was far down their list. They are quite happy in their second choice, the SEC.

As for Rutgers, the B1G chose them unwisely. They may have buyers remorse, but they chose Rutgers over many other options.

It was the Governor, Mark Warner. He kept talking about how the ACC's not taking VPI would "devastate the economy of SW Virginia." Since there is little love lost between UVa and the legislature, any threats Warner made would backed by them. The rural legislators hate us because we're not VPI and the Northern VA legislators hate us because we "turn down Northern VA applicants to take out-of-state people and less-qualified rural people."

 

[HtownOrange]

The Big12, really. I would have liked to see that. The more you Golden Domers dig in your heels, the more it aligns the conferences and their voters against you.

I am not a Notre Dame apologist but I respect the fact that they have been consistent in their football independence. Recall, SU was an Indy, too, until the Big East formed the football conference. Regardless, the Golden Domers have been consistent, as they were with the Big East.

ND likes the annual schedule to include: West Coast presence (covered by USC and Stanford, one home, one away each year), Navy (keeping a promise to Navy), five East coast teams (fulfilled by the ACC, formerly filled by the Big East and ACC), two Midwest teams (generally Big10) and two open games.

If you analyze their strategy and remember they are a Catholic school that actually seeks Catholic students (yes, they accept other denominations, but the emphasis is clearly Catholic), it makes sense: Catholic immigrants settled mostly along the east coast states (the ACC covers these states very well, add in Navy and all is well), the Chicago area and a few other midwestern cities (covered by the home games and two Midwest teams), West coast (USC and Stanford) and two that they can play other schools/areas. Recall, also, that ND is recruiting students more than just playing football - as Syracuse fans, we should understand this better than most State school fans, Private schools recruit students nationally. This is an outsider's view, but they have been consistent and forthright with their goals. The ACC accepted these terms so I, as a Syracuse fan, accept them, too. Still not a ND fan, but I respect them.

 

[CousCuse]

I am not a Notre Dame apologist but I respect the fact that they have been consistent in their football independence. Recall, SU was an Indy, too, until the Big East formed the football conference. Regardless, the Golden Domers have been consistent, as they were with the Big East.

ND likes the annual schedule to include: West Coast presence (covered by USC and Stanford, one home, one away each year), Navy (keeping a promise to Navy), five East coast teams (fulfilled by the ACC, formerly filled by the Big East and ACC), two Midwest teams (generally Big10) and two open games.

If you analyze their strategy and remember they are a Catholic school that actually seeks Catholic students (yes, they accept other denominations, but the emphasis is clearly Catholic), it makes sense: Catholic immigrants settled mostly along the east coast states (the ACC covers these states very well, add in Navy and all is well), the Chicago area and a few other midwestern cities (covered by the home games and two Midwest teams), West coast (USC and Stanford) and two that they can play other schools/areas. Recall, also, that ND is recruiting students more than just playing football - as Syracuse fans, we should understand this better than most State school fans, Private schools recruit students nationally. This is an outsider's view, but they have been consistent and forthright with their goals. The ACC accepted these terms so I, as a Syracuse fan, accept them, too. Still not a ND fan, but I respect them.

Notre Dame is like a free radical in the playoff format. If they get in, it is likely that one of the conferences will be left out because of that. And these votes are usually very tight, so I don't see voters giving them support at the end of the season. Frankly, I think it's very arrogant to stand off by themselves and proclaim their uniqueness. But, the Bigeast started this garbage and it seems to be here to stay.

 

[Ish88888]

TCU and Baylor fit in the Big12, USC fits in the Pac12, the Orange would have fit just fine in the B1G. Also if Syracuse played in the B1G east, the dome would be full every time those teams came to town.

Yes, the B10 would have filled the dome with visiting fans. However your examples of schools and where they fit doesn't make sense. All those teams make sense from a geography perspective. We don't in the B10.

 

[CousCuse]

Yes, the B10 would have filled the dome with visiting fans. However your examples of schools and where they fit doesn't make sense. All those teams make sense from a geography perspective. We don't in the B10.

The B1G has an eastern flank now.

 

[HtownOrange]

Notre Dame is like a free radical in the playoff format. If they get in, it is likely that one of the conferences will be left out because of that. And these votes are usually very tight, so I don't see voters giving them support at the end of the season. Frankly, I think it's very arrogant to stand off by themselves and proclaim their uniqueness. But, the Bigeast started this garbage and it seems to be here to stay.

ND is a bit of a free radical. You view that they are arrogant has some merit. My view is that they have accepted the fate that they will not get into the playoffs unless they deserve as voted by the committee. AS they will lack a conference championship, that is their choice. Virtually every conference champion will have an extra top level game via the conference championship. This lessens the odds of ND getting in. If they have a top four ranking at the end of the season it will be based on their strength of schedule and performance. If they get in, another team does not deserve to get in. At least one conference champion will not get in annually.

If you want to discuss the merits of ND and the ACC, perhaps it should be a new thread. This tread is about Pitt, the ACC and Pitt's perspective.

 

[WoadBlue]

Nice article.

If they didn't find a landing spot the AACK would be equal to being in the MAC to Pitt.

But my guess is the Big 12 takes them and WVU together with someone else to actually have 12 teams like its called they aren't undesirable like this weeks FB opponent.

The Big East was a terrible football league after Miami and VT (then BC) left. Obviously the finger should be pointed at us for a large part of that but the ACC is way better I just wish we got to play Miami and VT.

Schools not in the same division, not annual cross-divisional rivals, would get to play each other more often if the NCAA had allowed leagues to play without divisions. But the Big Ten led the fight to prevent that.

Of course, the Big Ten would benefit from no divisions football as much as the ACC.

 

[WoadBlue]

Delaney made a colossal mistake by not making Syracuse his prime eastern expansion target. Had he got Syracuse and Maryland, Pitt would likely gone to the Big12 with WV. That would have left the ACC to consider Rutgers and UCONN, which I think would be an emphatic NO. At that point the B1G would have shut the door on the ACC and owned the northeast as well as the midwest. Now the Northeast is split up and the ACC has the better brands. And the Orange would have been able to compete in the B!g after a short period of adjustment whereas Rutgers and Maryland look out of place. At that point I think ND would have become a B1G member at some level or maybe a full member.

So your case is that Swofford is smarter than his UNC classmate, which means that the ACC has better leadership than the Big Ten.

Yet you pine to have Syracuse made another catamite to the midwestern league run of, for, and by Ohio St and Michigan.

 

[FRANKIEFAN]

ND is a bit of a free radical. You view that they are arrogant has some merit. My view is that they have accepted the fate that they will not get into the playoffs unless they deserve as voted by the committee. AS they will lack a conference championship, that is their choice. Virtually every conference champion will have an extra top level game via the conference championship. This lessens the odds of ND getting in. If they have a top four ranking at the end of the season it will be based on their strength of schedule and performance. If they get in, another team does not deserve to get in. At least one conference champion will not get in annually.

If you want to discuss the merits of ND and the ACC, perhaps it should be a new thread. This tread is about Pitt, the ACC and Pitt's perspective.

Everyone wants to play ND OOC and all the ACC schools get them pretty regularly I don't mind the arrangement.

We get a shot at a marquee win vs them late this year when we have a great team. Note that we play NC State the week after they play Clemson so that is unlikely to be a game vs a ranked team. Ville/Wake/UNC/Pitt definitely won't be ranked opponents and BC will probably lose enough to not be ranked last week of the season either. Clemson could easily be our last ranked opponent until ND.

Games in NYC and we will have a lot of film of them playing ACC opponents. We are benefiting from the ND arrangement.

 

[orange79]

So your case is that Swofford is smarter than his UNC classmate, which means that the ACC has better leadership than the Big Ten.

Yet you pine to have Syracuse made another catamite to the midwestern league run of, for, and by Ohio St and Michigan.

For better or worse, you get a like for being the first poster to use 'catamite' on this board.

 

[CousCuse]

So your case is that Swofford is smarter than his UNC classmate, which means that the ACC has better leadership than the Big Ten.

Yet you pine to have Syracuse made another catamite to the midwestern league run of, for, and by Ohio St and Michigan.

I'm not pining for anything. I'm just analyzing the strategies and the outcomes of conference expansion. Rutgers does make a suitable catamite for just about any league.

 

[WoadBlue]

ND wants less than no part of the B1G. Apparently, there's a lot of bad history. If you go to their hard-core board, you'd see they are pi$$ed that their hockey team is forced to play in the B1G (and have the "B1G" logo on their unis) because something happened to Hockey East. Their alums largely live in the Northeast, Florida, and Chicago. That makes them consider themselves an East Coast school that just happens to be in the Midwest. That's also why they were in the Big East for the time that they were. Unless and until they get shut out of the CFP in a year they believe they deserve a bid because a conference champion was taken over them, they will not join any conference for football. This idea overrides any argument any outsider may try to make about "what I think makes sense". The B1G would/actually did insist on their joining for football as well; we did not , so they joined the ACC. If they join a conference for football before 2026 (and maybe it's now 2036 because of the ACCN) they must join the ACC per their agreement to join for the Olympic sports, and they have no problems doing that because they feel very comfortable in the ACC. There's a very remote possibility they may join for football as the Baby Boomers die off, but that's very remote.

As one of our board gurus has repeatedly said, Texas was offered the "ND Deal" by the ACC before it was offered to ND and turned it down. They won't turn it down if offered again. The Big XII can't enforce the Grant of Rights against Texas if they've been disbanded. And there's absolutely no freaking way that UMass, UConn, or any school east of the Mississippi has more to offer the ACC than Texas does. Don't ignore the Longhorns as a potential #16.

CousCuse, you put a lot of thought into your posts. The problem you face in these discussions is everyone connected with ND has a totally different thought process than you do when it comes to what to do with football.

My 'other' team is Notre Dame, because I have Irish ancestry and I am Catholic. And I know all about the very old and very deep ND dislike of the Big Ten, which comes from a history of the Big Ten trying to isolate ND and prevent its growth as a football power.

Notre Dame would be totally insane to ever join the Big Ten, and the ACC finally realized that the only way to to get the Irish into the ACC, and safe from Big Ten pressure, was to allow the partial football membership. When that decision was made, the ACC decided that the second the time was right, Syracuse and Pitt would be invited as teams 13 and 14. The Big 12 talking unofficially to Pitt made the tike right.

If Texas gets to the point that it no longer wishes to keep the Big 12 afloat, it is more likely to be part of the ACC than to go anywhere else. Texas has more than a few administrators who would relish being part of a league with Elite schools on the East Coast, and Texas has a group of sports boosters who like the idea of the Longhorns being like the Cowboys: the TX team in a division of East Coasters.

Specifically, Longhorns football people, all of them, know that an annual Texas-ND game would replace ND-SC as the nation's biggest intersectional game, and that only that game would hurt the SEC and make it pay for having taken A&M and messed up a Texas run conference a second time.

 

[WoadBlue]

I have a bridge in Brooklyn that I think you might be interested in...

Gene Corrigan has stated publicly more than once that when the SEC going to 12 forced the ACC to expand, the 2 schools immediately named were FSU and Syracuse. If we had expanded to 10 rather than 9 back then, we would have added Syracuse.

 

[WoadBlue]

For better or worse, you get a like for being the first poster to use 'catamite' on this board.

And I did so insulting Rutgers and Maryland.