The all-inclusive Rutgers dumpster fire thread...

[bnoro]

Reports are that the RU staff is in daily contact with all the verbals, a departure from what Flood did, where he would not stay on top of recruits.

There is 0.00% chance that is true. Even the worst HC in the world would keep in contact with his verbal commits. It's crazy to think otherwise.

 

[SU2NASA]

They've offered 7 of the top 8 players in NJ.

I think they'll be fine...
http://michigan.247sports.com/Season/2017-Football/Commits

They, and others, will snatch the guys that currently have R's next to their names once Rutgers gets taken to poundtown again.

 

[TheCusian]

I could say that Cuse is in a similar situation... It is a long distance between a Florida state, Clemson, and Syracuse right now... And your fans hope to slowly close the gap, as do RU fans against big 10 teams... That is what it is all about, being a fan and always hoping for improvement.

I was speaking towards recruiting and having 1 good class in July vs the waves of top talent that the other schools in your division have (namely Ohio St and Michigan) year over year.

And yeah, the top schools in both conferences recruit nationally and tend to get an order of magnitude better recruits. The problem for Rutgers is that the story doesn't end there. You have to out-recruit and out-play not only Ohio State and Michigan - but a playoff team last year in Michigan State and traditional power Penn State (whom I'd imagine we both hate). I'm not sure Indiana is as bad as Wake Forest - and Maryland and BC are probably a wash most years.

You have a first time HC whose primary focus is defense. I wouldn't be surprised to see this year end with Rutgers winning 1 conference game. With the cat out of the bag, I'd bet recruiting gets much, much harder.

Could be wrong, and it could go the other way. But I'd much rather be us.

 

[SU2NASA]

I was speaking towards recruiting and having 1 good class in July vs the waves of top talent that the other schools in your division have (namely Ohio St and Michigan) year over year.

And yeah, the top schools in both conferences recruit nationally and tend to get an order of magnitude better recruits. The problem for Rutgers is that the story doesn't end there. You have to out-recruit and out-play not only Ohio State and Michigan - but a playoff team last year in Michigan State and traditional power Penn State (whom I'd imagine we both hate). I'm not sure Indiana is as bad as Wake Forest - and Maryland and BC are probably a wash most years.

You have a first time HC whose primary focus is defense. I wouldn't be surprised to see this year end with Rutgers winning 1 conference game. With the cat out of the bag, I'd bet recruiting gets much, much harder.

Could be wrong, and it could go the other way. But I'd much rather be us.

Watch out for Maryland, Durkin has held his own in recruiting against the big boys, and outside of his senioritis against OSU last year, he's a good coach.

What's amazing to me is that with Michigan drinking their milkshake, their counter was to invite in Ohio State to raid NJ.

 

[Pharm73]

I was speaking towards recruiting and having 1 good class in July vs the waves of top talent that the other schools in your division have (namely Ohio St and Michigan) year over year.

And yeah, the top schools in both conferences recruit nationally and tend to get an order of magnitude better recruits. The problem for Rutgers is that the story doesn't end there. You have to out-recruit and out-play not only Ohio State and Michigan - but a playoff team last year in Michigan State and traditional power Penn State (whom I'd imagine we both hate). I'm not sure Indiana is as bad as Wake Forest - and Maryland and BC are probably a wash most years.

You have a first time HC whose primary focus is defense. I wouldn't be surprised to see this year end with Rutgers winning 1 conference game. With the cat out of the bag, I'd bet recruiting gets much, much harder.

Could be wrong, and it could go the other way. But I'd much rather be us.

Fair enough... You can always look at a team like Michigan state, who was not always a top team, but has become one now... a team like Miami went from being the best, and then fell on some hard times.. It can cycle around... Syracuse can become a good team over time, and I believe that RU can take the Michigan state approach to getting better... Granted it is a tough task for both programs... I personally like playing Michigan, Ohio state, etc, every year... The object is to not have your brains beaten in and close the gap... Lol... And become competitive... A daunting task.

 

[TheCusian]

Fair enough... You can always look at a team like Michigan state, who was not always a top team, but has become one now... a team like Miami went from being the best, and then fell on some hard times.. It can cycle around... Syracuse can become a good team over time, and I believe that RU can take the Michigan state approach to getting better... Granted it is a tough task for both programs... I personally like playing Michigan, Ohio state, etc, every year... The object is to not have your brains beaten in and close the gap... Lol... And become competitive... A daunting task.

I can't rag on you for having hope in your team (even in this particular thread). I just think the road is tougher even with recruits in your own backyard.

 

[NJCuse97]

I could say that Cuse is in a similar situation... It is a long distance between a Florida state, Clemson, and Syracuse right now... And your fans hope to slowly close the gap, as do RU fans against big 10 teams... That is what it is all about, being a fan and always hoping for improvement.

Pharm, I like your posts here, so don't read this as bashing. I agree that being a fan is about hoping for improvement, but i think that hope comes in large part from past and common experiences. I think that is why most people here are confused by Rutgers fandom and optimism. Most Syracuse fans can remember recently beating Clemson... badly. For that matter, Va Tech, Michigan, tOSU, Miami, Auburn, ND, the list goes on. Some here remember when guys like Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, and Tom Coughlin coached from our sideline. Still some remember seeing a Heisman winner win a National Championship or watching the GOAT play. There is not just history of success, but recent history. There is reason for hope and tempered optimism. We just don't see that with Rutgers. Rutgers is actually worse off than a hypothetical team started tomorrow, because that tomorrow team does not have RU's history to overcome. I can acknowledge that Ash seems to be doing well and has what appears to be a good class to this point, but as most are saying here, if he does not have an equally good season on the field, he will lose most if not all the ground he's gained on that history of yours and all the recruiting success comes crashing down. We are in a similar situation this season, your are correct, but our program and our coach have a history that overcomes that. I am not sure what Ash can fall back on other than to say Urban Meyer is a good coach and I know him. Also we do not want to do anything slowly. Orange is the new fast

 

[SUFaninNJ]

Pharm73, I have to say that you've been nothing but composed and classy since you started posting here. Why you're posting here is a bit of a mystery to me, but I guess SU probably has fans that post on other teams' sites as well. While I don't agree with much of what you say, I appreciate and applaud your passion. I don't think Ash is the answer, and I'm glad that Syracuse has Babers leading them into what hopefully will become a new and exciting future. A future lead by NJ's own Tommy DeVito. I'd wish your team luck, but frankly I don't want to be disingenuous.

 

[Townie72]

I've been hearing this "We're going Big Time" and "We are the sleeping giant" stuff for decades. I grew up in Princeton and know Rutgers alums (Rutgers College at the time).

And by all rights there really shouldn't be any barrier to RU being at least average. Look at all the advantages they have in terms of location, size, market, etc., etc.

But instead of being even average, they have over and over and over again under-achieved. And there's a reason for this and I don't know what it is. I mean look at their basketball program. It's dreadful. It's almost like they are trying to fail hoping to move up in some non-existent draft. How could you be a State university in New Jersey and be as bad as they are now and have been?

But RU's claim to inevitable rise is based on "facts" like size and location. My favorite statistician (Deming) once said that when the data don't match the theory, then it isn't the data that's wrong. It's the theory. And because they don't understand the problem, they can't solve it. Instead they blame it on coaching hires or AD hires or whatever.

I suspect that at many levels in the University, they don't want to achieve athletically. These people want to be Princeton, not Ohio State.

 

[Pharm73]

Pharm73, I have to say that you've been nothing but composed and classy since you started posting here. Why you're posting here is a bit of a mystery to me, but I guess SU probably has fans that post on other teams' sites as well. While I don't agree with much of what you say, I appreciate and applaud your passion. I don't think Ash is the answer, and I'm glad that Syracuse has Babers leading them into what hopefully will become a new and exciting future. A future lead by NJ's own Tommy DeVito. I'd wish your team luck, but frankly I don't want to be disingenuous.

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I know it is tough for many here to go back and forth with a RU fan without a couple of digs... I knew that before my first post... I will say that most RU fans on the rivals site think Babers is going to be a good coach, more so on the offensive side of the ball... And the addition of Devito will be a major plus... Some have predicted huge totals of passing offense before he graduates.

Of course those fans also think Ash will be a better coach... I don't understand why you could automatically think he is not the answer for RU... He has already seemed to rally state pride in a bigger way than Flood did, and Ash is doing this not being from our area...

As to who is the better game coach, we shall find out soon enough, but you have to give both Ash and Babers about 3 years, I would say.

 

[Pharm73]

Pharm, I like your posts here, so don't read this as bashing. I agree that being a fan is about hoping for improvement, but i think that hope comes in large part from past and common experiences. I think that is why most people here are confused by Rutgers fandom and optimism. Most Syracuse fans can remember recently beating Clemson... badly. For that matter, Va Tech, Michigan, tOSU, Miami, Auburn, ND, the list goes on. Some here remember when guys like Jim Tressel, Nick Saban, and Tom Coughlin coached from our sideline. Still some remember seeing a Heisman winner win a National Championship or watching the GOAT play. There is not just history of success, but recent history. There is reason for hope and tempered optimism. We just don't see that with Rutgers. Rutgers is actually worse off than a hypothetical team started tomorrow, because that tomorrow team does not have RU's history to overcome. I can acknowledge that Ash seems to be doing well and has what appears to be a good class to this point, but as most are saying here, if he does not have an equally good season on the field, he will lose most if not all the ground he's gained on that history of yours and all the recruiting success comes crashing down. We are in a similar situation this season, your are correct, but our program and our coach have a history that overcomes that. I am not sure what Ash can fall back on other than to say Urban Meyer is a good coach and I know him. Also we do not want to do anything slowly. Orange is the new fast

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I was expecting such a post... I will grant you that RU does not have past success to sell a recruit... But I also think that the success of Syracuse has been too long ago to impress today's recruits... These kids are looking at what a program is doing while they are in high school, not much before that... It is just not recent enough to make a difference... IMHO

That said, my favorite player of all time is Jim Brown, be it college or pro... Ask a number of old timers who the best was, and a good percentage would mention him... Again, a long time ago.

 

[TheCusian]

--- ----- I know it is tough for many here to go back and forth with a RU fan without a couple of digs... I knew that before my first post... I will say that most RU fans on the rivals site think Babers is going to be a good coach, more so on the offensive side of the ball... And the addition of Devito will be a major plus... Some have predicted huge totals of passing offense before he graduates. Of course those fans also think Ash will be a better coach... I don't understand why you could automatically think he is not the answer for RU... He has already seemed to rally state pride in a bigger way than Flood did, and Ash is doing this not being from our area... As to who is the better game coach, we shall find out soon enough, but you have to give both Ash and Babers about 3 years, I would say.

Babers is the better HC by virtue of actually winning games as one.

 

[NJCuse97]

----
I was expecting such a post... I will grant you that RU does not have past success to sell a recruit... But I also think that the success of Syracuse has been too long ago to impress today's recruits... These kids are looking at what a program is doing while they are in high school, not much before that... It is just not recent enough to make a difference... IMHO

That said, my favorite player of all time is Jim Brown, be it college or pro... Ask a number of old timers who the best was, and a good percentage would mention him... Again, a long time ago.

You are correct about the memory of recruits and the need for a better recent history, however my post was about the hope of the fan base, not the recruits. How the recruits play in (as well as the longer history) is if either of us has a bad season. That is when the recruits get told to look at the history of the program or the coach and that is where I believe Syracuse has stronger legs to stand on. Give them both three years, yes, but we both understand that 3-9 seasons often beget 3-9 seasons, unless you can recruit better talent or have a proven scheme that just needs time to sink in. Recruits and fans alike can have blind faith in the Babers system as it has a track record. Ash does not have that benefit, no matter how good a coach he really can be. Schiano rallied state pride better than any coach you've ever had, but in ten years, he was a .500 coach with only 4 winning records in conference play (all in a post 2004 weakened Big East)

From his Wikipedia page:
On December 1, 2000, Schiano accepted the head coaching position at Rutgers,[5] the state university of New Jersey. In 2001, his first season as head coach, the Scarlet Knights posted a 2–9 record (0–7 in the Big East), followed by a 1–11 mark (0–7 Big East) in 2002. This was followed by a 5–7 record (2–5 Big East) in 2003. In 2004, Schiano took on defensive coordinator responsibilities as well, and the team finished 4–7 (1–5 Big East). Although Schiano was producing solid recruiting classes, especially by Rutgers standards, his 3–24 record in conference games and 4–17 record in road games in those first four years were a cause for concern for some fans.

Combine that with the history. Schiano has the school's first ever bowl win in 2006. This from the oldest collegiate football team in the country. That is what opposing coaches tell Rutgers commits after a 3-9 season. They may not know it now, but they will if someone else wants them.

 

[SUFaninNJ]

---
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I know it is tough for many here to go back and forth with a RU fan without a couple of digs... I knew that before my first post... I will say that most RU fans on the rivals site think Babers is going to be a good coach, more so on the offensive side of the ball... And the addition of Devito will be a major plus... Some have predicted huge totals of passing offense before he graduates.

Of course those fans also think Ash will be a better coach... I don't understand why you could automatically think he is not the answer for RU... He has already seemed to rally state pride in a bigger way than Flood did, and Ash is doing this not being from our area...

As to who is the better game coach, we shall find out soon enough, but you have to give both Ash and Babers about 3 years, I would say.

I work 2 minutes from the RU campus and honestly I'm not hearing the buzz you're describing. I certainly could be wrong about him being the answer for RU, but I'm convinced he's not what SU needed. I just think that it's hard to come in as a first time head coach in a P5 conference. Rutgers is facing a very challenging year this year. The bloom could come off the rose very quickly. Add to that two other Big 10 schools added, IMO stronger HC choices (MD and UI), and they better hang on to their recruiting class or face a precipitous decline.

 

[NJCuse97]

I work 2 minutes from the RU campus and honestly I'm not hearing the buzz you're describing. I certainly could be wrong about him being the answer for RU, but I'm convinced he's not what SU needed. I just think that it's hard to come in as a first time head coach in a P5 conference. Rutgers is facing a very challenging year this year. The bloom could come off the rose very quickly. Add to that two other Big 10 schools added, IMO stronger HC choices (MD and UI), and they better hang on to their recruiting class or face a precipitous decline.

Agreed. I see Ash and the big red R everywhere I look. There is a building buzz. What is said here is almost exactly what I am saying (or intending anyway).

 

[money3189]

---
-----
I know it is tough for many here to go back and forth with a RU fan without a couple of digs... I knew that before my first post... I will say that most RU fans on the rivals site think Babers is going to be a good coach, more so on the offensive side of the ball... And the addition of Devito will be a major plus... Some have predicted huge totals of passing offense before he graduates.

Of course those fans also think Ash will be a better coach... I don't understand why you could automatically think he is not the answer for RU... He has already seemed to rally state pride in a bigger way than Flood did, and Ash is doing this not being from our area...

As to who is the better game coach, we shall find out soon enough, but you have to give both Ash and Babers about 3 years, I would say.

Alot of rutgers fans seem to think SU fans are mad about Ash going to them. Its the total opposite. Most seemed pretty unimpressed when they heard he was being considered. We all wanted a offensive guy with head coaching experience. Ash is doing a good job of making jersey kids believe it will be different. Not sure if he can win in that division with 3 star jersey and NYC players. You dont know what he will be like as a HC. Could be good , could be bad.

 

[MSOrange]

Alot of rutgers fans seem to think SU fans are mad about Ash going to them. Its the total opposite. Most seemed pretty unimpressed when they heard he was being considered. We all wanted a offensive guy with head coaching experience. Ash is doing a good job of making jersey kids believe it will be different. Not sure if he can win in that division with 3 star jersey and NYC players. You dont know what he will be like as a HC. Could be good , could be bad.

Mad about Ash going to them? Did they not see the meltdown on this board when Ash appeared to be a serious contender for our job?

 

[money3189]

Mad about Ash going to them? Did they not see the meltdown on this board when Ash appeared to be a serious contender for our job?

lol. It was bad. No one wanted Assh

 

[tipphill]

I was speaking towards recruiting and having 1 good class in July vs the waves of top talent that the other schools in your division have (namely Ohio St and Michigan) year over year.

And yeah, the top schools in both conferences recruit nationally and tend to get an order of magnitude better recruits. The problem for Rutgers is that the story doesn't end there. You have to out-recruit and out-play not only Ohio State and Michigan - but a playoff team last year in Michigan State and traditional power Penn State (whom I'd imagine we both hate). I'm not sure Indiana is as bad as Wake Forest - and Maryland and BC are probably a wash most years.

You have a first time HC whose primary focus is defense. I wouldn't be surprised to see this year end with Rutgers winning 1 conference game. With the cat out of the bag, I'd bet recruiting gets much, much harder.

Could be wrong, and it could go the other way. But I'd much rather be us.

i do not care what ru does recruiting against their conference competition. i do care about how we stack up against them in recruiting jersey. right now we do not. they have several comits with su offers, and others with far better offer sheets. it is ludicrous to predict how ash will do, just as much as it is the same to predict babers as a savior. sure i hope ash falls apart and babers is the savior, but to deny the current obvious recruiting comparison is .....

 

[TheCusian]

i do not care what ru does recruiting against their conference competition. i do care about how we stack up against them in recruiting jersey. right now we do not. they have several comits with su offers, and others with far better offer sheets. it is ludicrous to predict how ash will do, just as much as it is the same to predict babers as a savior. sure i hope ash falls apart and babers is the savior, but to deny the current obvious recruiting comparison is ...

1. Why on earth does it matter how we compare with them when they are not a team we play?

2. We need the best recruits for this system, wherever they are. NJ is important, yes. But Rutgers is mining almost only NJ kids. Not sure that alone gets it done (esp since the top kids still go elsewhere).

3. We have several commits with Rutgers offers.

4. We currently have the #1 QB in NJ, and the #2 overall in the east.

5. It is ludicrous to predict how Ash will do, because he's never been a HC before. It's completely reasonable to have an idea how Babers will do since he's done it twice at two different levels.

6. I don't think you've read my last post about this recruiting gap between Rutgers and Syracuse. It was two 4* players and that they had 10 more kids than we did. But since Devito is now been bumped again and we've signed a few more kids, the gap is even less than before. Dohn said today we have a couple of kids (a 2* and an unranked Canadian that he hasn't seen play yet, but that a bump might happen there too).

 

[Pharm73]

I work 2 minutes from the RU campus and honestly I'm not hearing the buzz you're describing. I certainly could be wrong about him being the answer for RU, but I'm convinced he's not what SU needed. I just think that it's hard to come in as a first time head coach in a P5 conference. Rutgers is facing a very challenging year this year. The bloom could come off the rose very quickly. Add to that two other Big 10 schools added, IMO stronger HC choices (MD and UI), and they better hang on to their recruiting class or face a precipitous decline.

-----
I was not talking about a fan buzz, but that amongst the recruits and top 20 NJ players... RU got a verbal from Clark and Melton in April, and these two, aside from being players RU really wants, have been instrumental in bringing in some of the other verbals in NJ...

As you say,
I think we can lose a verbal or two with a bad season, but having a lot of local recruits hopefully helps them bond together... We have at least one shaky verbal due to another more recent offer, this all part of the game... I think we lose this guy.

To your point
Most seasoned RU fans were not going to be excited by a coach hire if the guy was an life long assistant... A lot of fans had unrealistic expectations and were hoping for a high profile, already successful somewhere else coach... It was too much to ask due to our history and financial pinch.

I think Ash could be successful if he has good assistants in place, and winds up a decent game coach... A bit of experience as a head coach would have been preferable, granted

Since we have been down this road before, few were overly enthused at the hire, but are now optimistic with what seems to be going on now... I personally was wrongs bout his ability to draw interest from the better NJ players.

 

[C Bomb]

Alot of rutgers fans seem to think SU fans are mad about Ash going to them. Its the total opposite. Most seemed pretty unimpressed when they heard he was being considered. We all wanted a offensive guy with head coaching experience. Ash is doing a good job of making jersey kids believe it will be different. Not sure if he can win in that division with 3 star jersey and NYC players. You dont know what he will be like as a HC. Could be good , could be bad.

I know I lost my when his name was put out there. Still reminds me of GRob.

 

[Pharm73]

There is 0.00% chance that is true. Even the worst HC in the world would keep in contact with his verbal commits. It's crazy to think otherwise.

---
The administrators on the rivals site seem to think Flood did not do enough in this department... He might have gone too long between phone calls or texting, and thinking he did enough... Just an after the fact opinion.

 

[CuseOnly]

Alot of rutgers fans seem to think SU fans are mad about Ash going to them. Its the total opposite. Most seemed pretty unimpressed when they heard he was being considered. We all wanted a offensive guy with head coaching experience. Ash is doing a good job of making jersey kids believe it will be different. Not sure if he can win in that division with 3 star jersey and NYC players. You dont know what he will be like as a HC. Could be good , could be bad.

I was looking for the nearest bridge to jump from when I heard his name as a contender for HC.

Then the Ash jokes started and I decided to stick around to see how creative this board could get ripping on him. That was fun.

 

[tipphill]

1. Why on earth does it matter how we compare with them when they are not a team we play?

2. We need the best recruits for this system, wherever they are. NJ is important, yes. But Rutgers is mining almost only NJ kids. Not sure that alone gets it done (esp since the top kids still go elsewhere).

3. We have several commits with Rutgers offers.

4. We currently have the #1 QB in NJ, and the #2 overall in the east.

5. It is ludicrous to predict how Ash will do, because he's never been a HC before. It's completely reasonable to have an idea how Babers will do since he's done it twice at two different levels.

6. I don't think you've read my last post about this recruiting gap between Rutgers and Syracuse. It was two 4* players and that they had 10 more kids than we did. But since Devito is now been bumped again and we've signed a few more kids, the gap is even less than before. Dohn said today we have a couple of kids (a 2* and an unranked Canadian that he hasn't seen play yet, but that a bump might happen there too).

#7--they are out recruiting us. am i happy?--NO--other than number 4,the rest of the post is vacuous.