The best player plays

[Ottoman]

I follow a few programs in addition to Syracuse. One of the head coaches I am familiar with has a mantra: the best player plays. As long as a player is eligible and plays well in games, he doesn't care about other factors. Admittedly, this is a controversial philosophy. But it is rational.

It seems to me that Red cares most about who tries the hardest in practice and who follows directions the best. If you aren't playing his way, you aren't playing. For example, there is no way JC or Justin Taylor should have received the minutes they have over the last two years. And there doesn't seem to be any justification for having Quadir/Moore/Davis/Cuffe/even Benny ride the bench as much as they have. I understand that there are many factors to weigh in determining who is playing the best (and I may be missing many), but Red seems to be overly invested in proving he is right about certain players.

I'm not sure why we have analytics experts if the coaches aren't going to listen to them. We have several problems right now (e.g. transfer portal analysis), but playing the best players seems like a simple way to start improving.

I'm no basketball expert - am I missing something?

 

[Cusefan0307]

You lost me with Benny. That dude did not ever deserve to play.

Most coaches are going to play who practices hard to a point.

That said the Carlos experiment is puzzling.

 

[Ottoman]

You lost me with Benny. That dude did not ever deserve to play.

Most coaches are going to play who practices hard to a point.

That said the Carlos experiment is puzzling.

I agree; Benny was not an effective player here. But when comparing him to Justin Taylor, it's a closer call.

 

[djcon57]

Interesting point...

Through 7 games, the top 2 players in BPM are Davis and Moore, BY FAR.

They are 6th and 7th in Minutes.

Lets hope we see them more in upcoming games vs the other options.

 

[RF2044]

I get why Red was focused on Carlos initially -- because there is no other legitimate point guard on the roster. So, the goal was to force feed him PT and get him acclimated. I doubt Red foresaw the struggles Carlos would have [which, let's set aside for now, as it doesn't reflect favorably on his evaluation skills].

But before JJ's injury, I think we were seeing a transition where Carlos played less, JJ handled the ball more playing alongside Moore / Taylor.

So things were trending towards Carlos's play being indicative of him "deserving" to play less minutes. And that's what was happening... until JJ broke his arm. Which now means that Carlos has to play more. Again, because there is no other viable point guard option on the team.

 

[Sbucketball]

I get why Red was focused on Carlos initially -- because there is no other legitimate point guard on the roster. So, the goal was to force feed him PT and get him acclimated. I doubt Red foresaw the struggles Carlos would have [which, let's set aside for now, as it doesn't reflect favorably on his evaluation skills].

But before JJ's injury, I think we were seeing a transition where Carlos played less, JJ handled the ball more playing alongside Moore / Taylor.

So things were trending towards Carlos's play being indicative of him "deserving" to play less minutes. And that's what was happening... until JJ broke his arm. Which now means that Carlos has to play more. Again, because there is no other viable point guard option on the team.

Agreed. I'm confident Red was starting to move away from Carlos, but now he won't with JJ out. Unfortunate for us, and even more unfortunate for Red.

 

[Ottoman]

I get why Red was focused on Carlos initially -- because there is no other legitimate point guard on the roster. So, the goal was to force feed him PT and get him acclimated. I doubt Red foresaw the struggles Carlos would have [which, let's set aside for now, as it doesn't reflect favorably on his evaluation skills].

But before JJ's injury, I think we were seeing a transition where Carlos played less, JJ handled the ball more playing alongside Moore / Taylor.

So things were trending towards Carlos's play being indicative of him "deserving" to play less minutes. And that's what was happening... until JJ broke his arm. Which now means that Carlos has to play more. Again, because there is no other viable point guard option on the team.

I think you are right - Red has been slowly moving away from JC. But even with JJ out, it seems like JC is playing more than necessary. 37 minutes last game seems excessive based on the analytics.

We are very thin at guard now, but at least Cuffe and Taylor offer some defensive upside. I also think Bell could play some minutes at the 2. He already plays more like a 2 than a 3. That would allow Davis to get more minutes at the 3.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Again, because there is no other viable point guard option on the team.

this is an assumption...its not truth

i think carlos might be a point guard by position...but that doesnt mean he can actually fill that role better than the other players on THIS roster

in my opinion, carlos is the 4th or 5th best PG on this roster...even though he is technically most archetypal "point guard"

this line of thinking is so unintelligent, imo...that carlos must play bc hes the only PG...he isnt a pg...bc he sucks

hes more like a walkon than a PG

red would rather lose by 30 than try to experiment and test his own assumptions...its maddening

 

[Ottoman]

Interesting point...

Through 7 games, the top 2 players in BPM are Davis and Moore, BY FAR.

They are 6th and 7th in Minutes.

Lets hope we see them more in upcoming games vs the other options.

That's useful information. In my opinion, both guys have proven that they deserve more PT.

If JC is only playing because the staff is fixated on the traditional position roles (e.g., JC is a natural point guard), it seems like they might be a bit behind the times. It's not ideal, but Cuffe/Moore look like they are capable of dribbling the ball up the court.

 

[swish7]

I follow a few programs in addition to Syracuse. One of the head coaches I am familiar with has a mantra: the best player plays. As long as a player is eligible and plays well in games, he doesn't care about other factors. Admittedly, this is a controversial philosophy. But it is rational.

It seems to me that Red cares most about who tries the hardest in practice and who follows directions the best. If you aren't playing his way, you aren't playing. For example, there is no way JC or Justin Taylor should have received the minutes they have over the last two years. And there doesn't seem to be any justification for having Quadir/Moore/Davis/Cuffe/even Benny ride the bench as much as they have. I understand that there are many factors to weigh in determining who is playing the best (and I may be missing many), but Red seems to be overly invested in proving he is right about certain players.

I'm not sure why we have analytics experts if the coaches aren't going to listen to them. We have several problems right now (e.g. transfer portal analysis), but playing the best players seems like a simple way to start improving.

I'm no basketball expert - am I missing something?

I'd play Georgia Wooley over some of our guards

 

[RF2044]

this is an assumption...its not truth

i think carlos might be a point guard by position...but that doesnt mean he can actually fill that role better than the other players on THIS roster

in my opinion, carlos is the 4th or 5th best PG on this roster...even though he is technically most archetypal "point guard"

this line of thinking is so unintelligent, imo...that carlos must play bc hes the only PG...he isnt a pg...bc he sucks

hes more like a walkon than a PG

red would rather lose by 30 than try to experiment and test his own assumptions...its maddening

It is 100% truthful, accurate, and factual.

What you are stating is wishful thinking, not backed up by any empirical evidence. People can talk about Chance, Cuffe, and JJ running point until they are blue in the face, but it's just wishful thinking / rationalization.

What's really unintelligent is suggesting a strategy akin to throwing shiz against the wall, hoping something sticks.

But no argument about Carlos being subpar.

 

[Ottoman]

this is an assumption...its not truth

i think carlos might be a point guard by position...but that doesnt mean he can actually fill that role better than the other players on THIS roster

in my opinion, carlos is the 4th or 5th best PG on this roster...even though he is technically most archetypal "point guard"

this line of thinking is so unintelligent, imo...that carlos must play bc hes the only PG...he isnt a pg...bc he sucks

hes more like a walkon than a PG

red would rather lose by 30 than try to experiment and test his own assumptions...its maddening

I tend to agree. It would be wonderful to have a point guard who can run the offense and provide solid defense. But we don't have a guy like that this year and never have.

We have a collection of four or five guards with various skills. Call me crazy, but I would play the two best guys the most.

 

[SimonSays]

this is an assumption...its not truth

i think carlos might be a point guard by position...but that doesnt mean he can actually fill that role better than the other players on THIS roster

in my opinion, carlos is the 4th or 5th best PG on this roster...even though he is technically most archetypal "point guard"

this line of thinking is so unintelligent, imo...that carlos must play bc hes the only PG...he isnt a pg...bc he sucks

hes more like a walkon than a PG

red would rather lose by 30 than try to experiment and test his own assumptions...its maddening

this is the EXACT comment i think when i think of JC. of course he has played PH his whole life, of course he is the most acclimated to being a PG model type player, and probably is the most used to then anyone else on the team.

this does not mean he is the best or right option. kyle cuffe isn’t a PG. he isn’t used to “running an offense”, but when JC is playing 30+ mins you have to take the cost of having a non PG in that role to suffice JC *lack of output*.

We have seen cuffe make threes , we have seen cuffe drive HARD to the rim, we have seen cuffe at least want to score. his game against oregon is more then anything JC has ever done in his minutes here.

JC can’t do any of that , and can’t even create a mis match or movement from the defense on a P&R, which is essential for getting any type of spacing.

yes JC is the only PG on the team. but i’ll have a disjointed offense positionally wise where everyone on the court has the ability to put the ball in the rim over him.

 

[baggerbob]

this is the EXACT comment i think when i think of JC. of course he has played PH his whole life, of course he is the most acclimated to being a PG model type player, and probably is the most used to then anyone else on the team.

this does not mean he is the best or right option. kyle cuffe isn’t a PG. he isn’t used to “running an offense”, but when JC is playing 30+ mins you have to take the cost of having a non PG in that role to suffice JC *lack of output*.

We have seen cuffe make threes , we have seen cuffe drive HARD to the rim, we have seen cuffe at least want to score. his game against oregon is more then anything JC has ever done in his minutes here.

JC can’t do any of that , and can’t even create a mis match or movement from the defense on a P&R, which is essential for getting any type of spacing.

yes JC is the only PG on the team. but i’ll have a disjointed offense positionally wise where everyone on the court has the ability to put the ball in the rim over him.

He can't play offense or defense at this level so he needs to find a seat on the bench.

 

[rrlbees]

Interesting point...

Through 7 games, the top 2 players in BPM are Davis and Moore, BY FAR.

They are 6th and 7th in Minutes.

Lets hope we see them more in upcoming games vs the other options.

Maybe Red is trying to focus on defense. Carlos and Bell both have better DBPM ratings than Davis and Moore.

 

[djcon57]

Maybe Red is trying to focus on defense. Carlos and Bell both have better DBPM ratings than Davis and Moore.

The defense sucks regardless.

In the Carlos vs Moore debate, You are comparing 0.7 to -.3. for DPM

That’s a difference of a point

For offense it’s 5.5 to -5.4

That’s 10 points

Is 10 pts better or worse than 1 point?

I get what you are saying but it’s just not a great point. For someone to play specifically for their D, it needs to be really good. Same for their O only.

Which is why I don’t have an issue with Bell if he scores

 

[djcon57]

With the Bell vs Davis discussion.

You look at their rebounds and could say, they basically grab the same number of boards. What’s the big deal.

The big deal comes when you look at the Per 40 numbers

Bell grabs 4.4 boards per 40
Davis 11.6 per 40

They score basically the same per 40 scoring.

So essentially we lose Bells shooting for sure. But Davis brings other things.

At least a time split seems reasonable to me at this point

 

[Sbucketball]

With the Bell vs Davis discussion.

You look at their rebounds and could say, they basically grab the same number of boards. What’s the big deal.

The big deal comes when you look at the Per 40 numbers

Bell grabs 4.4 boards per 40
Davis 11.6 per 40

They score basically the same per 40 scoring.

So essentially we lose Bells shooting for sure. But Davis brings other things.

At least a time split seems reasonable to me at this point

The Bell thing should be so easy a kindergartener could handle it. He's literally only good at one thing, so if he's not doing that one thing well on a given night, sit him down.

If your excuse is you need the SF to stretch the D, play Moore there.

 

[rrlbees]

The Bell thing should be so easy a kindergartener could handle it. He's literally only good at one thing, so if he's not doing that one thing well on a given night, sit him down.

If your excuse is you need the SF to stretch the D, play Moore there.

Don’t know if you saw the post about the Tenny game but Bell was the leading rebounder, led in steals, and led in blocks. Was the 2nd leading scorer, shot 50% and had the best defensive rating. Yet he still caught over the top crap in the game thread.

 

[Sbucketball]

Don’t know if you saw the post about the Tenny game but Bell was the leading rebounder, led in steals, and led in blocks. Was the 2nd leading scorer, shot 50% and had the best defensive rating. Yet he still caught over the top crap in the game thread.

If he’s doing those things, then play him. Many games shooting is the only thing he brings. Those games where he brings nothing else he should sit when shots arent falling. But by all means if he wants to do the rest, which he has the physical capability to do, then keep him out there.

 

[DilemaCuse]

The defense sucks regardless.

In the Carlos vs Moore debate, You are comparing 0.7 to -.3. for DPM

That’s a difference of a point

For offense it’s 5.5 to -5.4

That’s 10 points

Is 10 pts better or worse than 1 point?

I get what you are saying but it’s just not a great point. For someone to play specifically for their D, it needs to be really good. Same for their O only.

Which is why I don’t have an issue with Bell if he scores

yeah when comparing defensive metrics there really is no best, its more like least worst

 

[IthacaMatt]

It is 100% truthful, accurate, and factual.

What you are stating is wishful thinking, not backed up by any empirical evidence. People can talk about Chance, Cuffe, and JJ running point until they are blue in the face, but it's just wishful thinking / rationalization.

What's really unintelligent is suggesting a strategy akin to throwing shiz against the wall, hoping something sticks.

But no argument about Carlos being subpar.

This is where his thinking appears to have changed. Last year, most of the time we had 3 ball handlers in the game. He didn't seem to say "we have one point guard" like he is saying this year. Judah didn't generate that much for others, but between him, JJ and Copeland, there was enough ball handling and enough creativity. It wasn't all just on Judah.

This year, it was mostly Carlos, then JJ getting more time handling the ball, but we have lacked the third ball handler at SF. Westry could give us that extra guy, or Cuffe. But Taylor isn't enough of a guard. If he was consistently playing Cuffe 5-10 minutes a game, he could give us what we need from a third guy to handle the ball.

What we have right now are Carlos, Choppa, Cuffe and Taylor. He's basically only playing 2 of them as primary ball handlers. That's why Cuffe and Westry need to get worked into the rotation.

Last year, also, it seemed that he rotated players more to put more pressure on the ball. That has evaporated, and is another reason to play more of the bench, to bring more energy to the defense. He used the zone effectively at times last year, too. Now, forget it.