The coaching staff deserves some blame but...

[sufandu]

I get that. But show me a team that jumped another level status wise and had their attendence go down. It never actually works that way.

You might get a few thousand less tickets sold for Army than Northwestern, but you more than make it up on the back end. You don't think you sell more tickets to Clemson if you're 4-0? More tickets to say NC State if you are 5-1 versus 3-3?

You don't think you sell more season tickets (whether they all show up for those two dog games) when you have a 8-9 win team?

That's the way it always works.

Remember, when you schedule realistically to get to 7-8 wins, then get that upset or two, or you get just the right combinations of seniors or staff (before they get hired away), you're right on the brink of a 10-win season. That's a big deal for a program. That turns heads, of media and kids.

I see you're an FSU fan. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, that you're not from central New York. Do you know what people in the area say if you schedule 4 scrubs before Clemson and SU wins them all? "They still suck. They haven't even played anybody." I'm not talking about the people on this board. I'm talking about the casual fan that only go to the games when it's the cool thing to do, and those are the people that SU needs to fill the empty seats. Those are the people that show up to the Clemson game only if SU is undefeated going into the game following a good previous season where you already beat Clemson or FSU. The casual fan in CNY is a "show me first" fan that doesn't get excited by beating no name teams. It's a sports culture of cynicism and pessimism that doesn't exist in the south. That's the dilemma the SU athletic department has with scheduling. Schedule beatable early season teams and it's, "so what?" Schedule tough teams and lose to them and it's, "told you they suck."

Having said all that I would prefer to have had the schedule flip flopped with Wagner and Tulane games 1 and 2 with PSU and Northwestern 3 and 4. I don't know if our record would be any different after 4 games, but at least we're getting our new OC's and QB's feet wet without killing them.

 

[wfschrec]

The reason it doesn't work this way is because there is no way you should believe right now that you are good enough to beat the other teams not named FSU and Clemson. How are you going to get better? Most are recruiting better than you guys, and they will continue to do so because they will be able to point to a winning trajectory for their program. And most of them are already closer to the talent than you. You cannot get the kids you need to run the ACC slate (minus FSU/CU) unless you show you are a team that wins and is one the right track. Baby steps.

The way you get to the place you are describing is by scheduling three sure wins, and one higher profile game that you have a good chance to win. Go into the Clemson game 4-0 and play on prime time on ESPN, instead of on Raycom at 12:30. Have all your recruiting targets at that game and a packed dome. Lose that game, maybe bad, and tell your recruits "This is the kind of atmosphere you guys can play in at Syracuse. But you can see we need you, and now. You could have started this game." Hell, play that Clemson game close or win, and its just gravy.

Lose to FSU, lose two other ACC games, and finish 8-4. Play in a bowl game close to New Years against an SEC or B1G school. Get your kids and coach and extra month of practices. Win that game, and you've won 9 games.

Now, instead you'll be 2-2, enthusiasm for the Clemson game will be muted considerably, and if you play out the season exactly the same way, you are 6-6 at best and playing in the Birmingham bowl against UConn or something.

I know it's hard to wrap your head around and it's against what we grew up with, but that's just how it works.

As for SOS, Syracuse is a long way from that mattering. Worry about that when you get to where FSU and Clemson are, and they're taking on big games. You adjust your philosophy with the state of the program obviously.

And if everyone took this philosophy the conference schedule would more than make up for it. Hell, if UVA had been satisfied with BYU, that win would look tremendous today and UVA would probably be ranked. Instead, they insisted on taking on Oregon on one week's prep, after Oregon had a warm up game.

Go back and look at our 09 schedule ... PSU, NW, Minn, Maine and BE ... we go 4-8 ... we get enough talent in the next season to go to the Pinstripe and win a bowl game going 8-5. We do not go 8-5 if we don't expose this team to how the big boys go ... pounding on the Wagners and Norfolk States of the world not only give us a false idea of how good SU is but still won't put fannies in the seats because no one ... and I mean no one wants to watch us play Wagner, sorry its the truth. Not playing the big boys and not making the schedule tough is the reason some of these teams crumble when the going gets tough and they play in a game when something meaningful is on the line. Look at the most successful teams in the BE the last few years ... WVU would play anyone ... heck even UConn put Michigan, Vandy and others on their slate ... ND ... all those guys. SU was able to get back into the bowl picture by lining the kids up in front of some of the higher level schools and giving them a taste of what big time ball is.

I don't buy into the schedule like a chickensh!t philosophy because then you end up like RU where you have an opportunity to walk into a big game like against LVille last year with a chance to win your conference outright only to choke because you just haven't been battle tested ... you want to run with the big dogs run with them. Don't forget we climbed out of the doldrums playing some B1G and SEC schools .. yeah we would lump in a Wagner type or Tulane just like this season but when we line up against Wagner this year we will smack them in the mouth because we have had our bar elevated and we know what its like to play with some of the heavies and be battle tested and there is nothing wrong with it. The other thing to keep in mind is that these games were scheduled when we were still in that other pathetic excuse for a conference so in some ways we had to make up for a poor in conference slate ... in future seasons that won't be nearly as necessary as it was yesterday.

Playing better opponents in the end makes you better and if we have a better idea of who we are and what we do moving to conference play I'm ok with it ... frankly I think this team will be better because we played two good B1G teams ... if we play 4 pasties and go 4-0 then we get a false idea of what we are and don't know what it takes to truly compete with some of the big boys on our slate ... like it or not we have to play them in conference. I would prefer that they mix the schedule a bit ... start with Wagner ... get some game time under their belts ... then play PSU ... then Tulane then follow with NW ... build confidence, attitude and expectations incrementally.

 

[Lou_C]

Go back and look at our 09 schedule ... PSU, NW, Minn, Maine and BE ... we go 4-8 ... we get enough talent in the next season to go to the Pinstripe and win a bowl game going 8-5. We do not go 8-5 if we don't expose this team to how the big boys go ... pounding on the Wagners and Norfolk States of the world not only give us a false idea of how good SU is but still won't put fannies in the seats because no one ... and I mean no one wants to watch us play Wagner, sorry its the truth. Not playing the big boys and not making the schedule tough is the reason some of these teams crumble when the going gets tough and they play in a game when something meaningful is on the line. Look at the most successful teams in the BE the last few years ... WVU would play anyone ... heck even UConn put Michigan, Vandy and others on their slate ... ND ... all those guys. SU was able to get back into the bowl picture by lining the kids up in front of some of the higher level schools and giving them a taste of what big time ball is.

I don't buy into the schedule like a chickensh!t philosophy because then you end up like RU where you have an opportunity to walk into a big game like against LVille last year with a chance to win your conference outright only to choke because you just haven't been battle tested ... you want to run with the big dogs run with them. Don't forget we climbed out of the doldrums playing some B1G and SEC schools .. yeah we would lump in a Wagner type or Tulane just like this season but when we line up against Wagner this year we will smack them in the mouth because we have had our bar elevated and we know what its like to play with some of the heavies and be battle tested and there is nothing wrong with it. The other thing to keep in mind is that these games were scheduled when we were still in that other pathetic excuse for a conference so in some ways we had to make up for a poor in conference slate ... in future seasons that won't be nearly as necessary as it was yesterday.

Playing better opponents in the end makes you better and if we have a better idea of who we are and what we do moving to conference play I'm ok with it ... frankly I think this team will be better because we played two good B1G teams ... if we play 4 pasties and go 4-0 then we get a false idea of what we are and don't know what it takes to truly compete with some of the big boys on our slate ... like it or not we have to play them in conference. I would prefer that they mix the schedule a bit ... start with Wagner ... get some game time under their belts ... then play PSU ... then Tulane then follow with NW ... build confidence, attitude and expectations incrementally.

That makes sense if your idea of a great year when all the planets allign is going 7-5 in the Big East with a shot to beat another 5 loss team in a bowl game. Yes, if that's a great year, then maybe that does make sense to keep doing what you're doing, because once or twice every ten years, you'll have a chance for everything to come together and win seven games. Except it will probably be 5-6 games, considering you now have FSU and Clemson on the schedule every year.

But if occasionally 8-5 is where you're trying to get, when all your talent dovetails, and you're in the last year of a coach destined for bigger jobs, then you might be able to accomplish that just how you're doing it. All that big time experience kept you home for the holidays for most seasons and prepared you when you got your shot at the big time against a 7-5 team in a snow storm (and a 75th ranked recruiting class).

It's definitely working if that's where you're setting your goals.

 

[Lou_C]

I see you're an FSU fan. I'm assuming, and I could be wrong, that you're not from central New York. Do you know what people in the area say if you schedule 4 scrubs before Clemson and SU wins them all? "They still suck. They haven't even played anybody." I'm not talking about the people on this board. I'm talking about the casual fan that only go to the games when it's the cool thing to do, and those are the people that SU needs to fill the empty seats. Those are the people that show up to the Clemson game only if SU is undefeated going into the game following a good previous season where you already beat Clemson or FSU. The casual fan in CNY is a "show me first" fan that doesn't get excited by beating no name teams. It's a sports culture of cynicism and pessimism that doesn't exist in the south. That's the dilemma the SU athletic department has with scheduling. Schedule beatable early season teams and it's, "so what?" Schedule tough teams and lose to them and it's, "told you they suck."

Having said all that I would prefer to have had the schedule flip flopped with Wagner and Tulane games 1 and 2 with PSU and Northwestern 3 and 4. I don't know if our record would be any different after 4 games, but at least we're getting our new OC's and QB's feet wet without killing them.

As it so happens, I am from Buffalo, with family in Canandaigua and Rochester. So I know a bit about how it works up there. College football is nothing up there. There's only so much you can do about it, but I might have a different opinion if there were threads all over this board about how hard it was to get tickets to the Dome on Saturdays. But that's not the case.

How is Syracuse's last 10+ years helped rectify the situation? Nobody up there follows college football worth a crap. The only way you're going to make any headway is by becoming a winning team again. They'll either catch up or they won't, but it's not like this is working.

 

[baggerbob]

We are in the ACC, and starting next year will play Florida St, Clemson, Louisville every year, and every 3rd year Notre Dame, Play 3 Humpty Dumpties for wins and schedule one game against a good team. If you go into the conference schedule 4-0, and go 7-1, or 8-0, fans come, recruits come, and good bowls come. We have to get back to winning a minimum of 8 games a year, and have a chance to win the conference every few years.

 

[rosconey]

could be the joisey girls never win a big game ooc because they never play in onecouchburn

 

[Alsacs]

We have played 1 1-AA every year since 2006. That is one patsy. We have played a MAC or CUSA team almost every year that is two patsys. Then we typically have played two BCS teams and one other team because the Big East boned us with only 7 conference games.
In the ACC we should continue this trend and play 2 patsies and 2 legit BCS teams.
The point is this as King Otto has said on twitter and not on this board because he doesn't post here anymore sadly the cupboard that Doug Marrone left wasn't as good as the talent he inherited from Greg Robinson. KOIII has broken it down by position and it looks while Robinson couldn't coach or manage a roster to save his life he did leave some talent for Marrone. I have been tough on Shafer but after looking at KOIII tweets he makes the reasonable point our ex-coach only brought the program from pathetic to mediocre and while mediocre is way better than the GROB days Marrone didn't leave Shafer much to work as I have been hammering him for.

 

[Moontan]

Read this: http://www.syracuse.com/orangefootball/index.ssf/2013/08/frazier_trying_to_get_syracuse.html

I get the impression it's amateur hour in the athletic department.

If Herman knows what the OOC schedules are for 2014 & 2015 then they should release them. Either the games aren't firm or they're already trying to change some of them.

I know that he's had some good suggestions of available match ups to pursue.

 

[wfschrec]

That makes sense if your idea of a great year when all the planets allign is going 7-5 in the Big East with a shot to beat another 5 loss team in a bowl game. Yes, if that's a great year, then maybe that does make sense to keep doing what you're doing, because once or twice every ten years, you'll have a chance for everything to come together and win seven games. Except it will probably be 5-6 games, considering you now have FSU and Clemson on the schedule every year.

But if occasionally 8-5 is where you're trying to get, when all your talent dovetails, and you're in the last year of a coach destined for bigger jobs, then you might be able to accomplish that just how you're doing it. All that big time experience kept you home for the holidays for most seasons and prepared you when you got your shot at the big time against a 7-5 team in a snow storm (and a 75th ranked recruiting class).

It's definitely working if that's where you're setting your goals.

No but apparently you don't have much knowledge of this program. If you look at where we year the prior 6 years than 8-5 would have made many folks a hell of a lot happier than the actual on field product. You also have to realize that over the history of the SU program no matter what decade it was we always played heavyweights ... it is an expectation of SU fans ... in the early 20s SU was the only team to beat Nebraska ... Nebraska was the only team to beat the vaunted 4 horsemen ... into the 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s ... whether it was Pop Warner led Pitt ... Paterno's PSU ... the Canes ... Nebraska in the Dome ... OU in the early 90s ... Auburn ... home and home with Michigan ... Tee Martin and UT ... SU has always played the heavies and while they didn't always win they always played tough even in the Malloney era when they went head to head with the likes of OSU ... there is a lot of pride in that program and for those that have followed it a long time Wagner just doesn't get you pumped that is just how it is.

This was a program that has been blue collar and tough since 1888 .. and it won't change. And as far as making cracks about our "snow bowl game" that is fine ... its been a bad decade I admit ... but if you want to run with the big dogs you have to play them. On the other hand don't give me the ACC is a bunch of worldbeaters crap either ... you played two ranked teams during the regular season ... Clemson and Florida ... and UF put it to you guys ... the rest of the ACC is mediocre at best ... and there was a reason that the bowl game vs NIU had a poor TV rating ... because it wasn't a marque match up no one cared ... they would rather watch Clemson vs LSU or Bama vs ND ... had FSU played a BCS heavyweight the viewership would have been much better. No one wants to watch a blow out over Rome School for the Deaf ... its not fun. Truthfully it doesn't do the program much either except provide a glorified scrimmage ... I'm not content on winning a paper schedule ... just not ... its my opinion ... but the fact is you only get better raising your level of competition not running from it ... not a hard concept.

 

[wfschrec]

As it so happens, I am from Buffalo, with family in Canandaigua and Rochester. So I know a bit about how it works up there. College football is nothing up there. There's only so much you can do about it, but I might have a different opinion if there were threads all over this board about how hard it was to get tickets to the Dome on Saturdays. But that's not the case.

How is Syracuse's last 10+ years helped rectify the situation? Nobody up there follows college football worth a crap. The only way you're going to make any headway is by becoming a winning team again. They'll either catch up or they won't, but it's not like this is working.

No doubt winning helps but when you have guys on our own board lobbying to have guys attend the Clemson game vs the Wagner game because they are worried about the crowd and not worried about a win or loss that right there should tell you something shouldn't it? Moving to the ACC and building a new IPF are more important than beating Wagner ... People will look at that schedule and say ... great you lost to the ACC heavies but beat pasties ... but if you can tell a recruit .. hey we are building and we will play anyone ... have a game in NYC against USC, PSU or ND ... go to Chicago ... travel to Mizzou in SEC country ... its a nice selling point.

 

[SaltineWar]

No doubt winning helps but when you have guys on our own board lobbying to have guys attend the Clemson game vs the Wagner game because they are worried about the crowd and not worried about a win or loss that right there should tell you something shouldn't it? Moving to the ACC and building a new IPF are more important than beating Wagner ... People will look at that schedule and say ... great you lost to the ACC heavies but beat pasties ... but if you can tell a recruit .. hey we are building and we will play anyone ... have a game in NYC against USC, PSU or ND ... go to Chicago ... travel to Mizzou in SEC country ... its a nice selling point.

Then why aren't we getting any top-flight recruits? The answer is obvious, they don't want to go to a program that has had two winning seasons in the last 10. They want winning, and "home" games in N.J. against teams that cream us aren't appealing.

 

[sufandu]

As it so happens, I am from Buffalo, with family in Canandaigua and Rochester. So I know a bit about how it works up there. College football is nothing up there. There's only so much you can do about it, but I might have a different opinion if there were threads all over this board about how hard it was to get tickets to the Dome on Saturdays. But that's not the case.

How is Syracuse's last 10+ years helped rectify the situation? Nobody up there follows college football worth a crap. The only way you're going to make any headway is by becoming a winning team again. They'll either catch up or they won't, but it's not like this is working.

So you're from Buffalo and you're not a Syracuse fan? What's up with that? You need to lead the way in the Syracuse fan resurgence and change allegiance post haste mister.

 

[wfschrec]

Then why aren't we getting any top-flight recruits? The answer is obvious, they don't want to go to a program that has had two winning seasons in the last 10. They want winning, and "home" games in N.J. against teams that cream us aren't appealing.

Um do I really need to answer that? Honestly ... winning is only a part of it ... if it were as easy as just winning we would have never tapered off ... we were way behind in the facilities race ... the BE conf was seen as an after thought after Va Tech and Miami left ... we had a ton of things going against us from a perception standpoint ... and according to recruiting services we landed more 4 stars under GRob then we did under Marrone ... how did that work out? I mean are you really content with playing 4 teams like Akron and Wagner each year? I didn't realize PSU creamed us in NJ ... if 6 points is a creaming then I would hate to see how you would have described what we did to WVU. Yeah I guess playing against a big time PSU in a hard fought game in an NFL like environment in front of Mavety, Holley and others was such a terrible idea ... ask Mavety about the reception he received from the Cuse faithful ... you really need to see the big picture ... those guys aren't impressed by waxing Wagner by 4 scores in a half empty dome ...

 

[ssbriefcase]

That makes sense if your idea of a great year when all the planets allign is going 7-5 in the Big East with a shot to beat another 5 loss team in a bowl game. Yes, if that's a great year, then maybe that does make sense to keep doing what you're doing, because once or twice every ten years, you'll have a chance for everything to come together and win seven games. Except it will probably be 5-6 games, considering you now have FSU and Clemson on the schedule every year.

But if occasionally 8-5 is where you're trying to get, when all your talent dovetails, and you're in the last year of a coach destined for bigger jobs, then you might be able to accomplish that just how you're doing it. All that big time experience kept you home for the holidays for most seasons and prepared you when you got your shot at the big time against a 7-5 team in a snow storm (and a 75th ranked recruiting class).

It's definitely working if that's where you're setting your goals.

I agree with some of what you're saying. However, you can save the now you have big bad FSU and Clemson to play crap. We have always played top tier comp. Remember we played Miami and V tech every year and a host of other top tier programs always. I understand you guys are back and Clemson is having their run now, but we didn't jump to the NFL by going to the ACC either. Some might be apologists on this board and have the 'oh poor us' mentality, but I sure don't and never will. I hope our players have that mentality as well..

 

[rosconey]

im pissed because the state of the northwestern program in year 9 compared to what pp era became about that time-

fitz has done a great job building then sustaining the program

 

[ssbriefcase]

im pissed because the state of the northwestern program in year 9 compared to what pp era became about that time-

fitz has done a great job building then sustaining the program

I hear you, and that just shows me it will happen again for us. Just my opinion but I think it's more cyclical than most do I guess.