The Frank Howard Thunder Dome

[iommi]

Ask boeheim why frank doesn’t push the ball up the court. Some of you guys are nuts.

If he's instructed to take the ball up slowly in our backcourt when under no pressure, then JB is out of his damn mind. I know JB doesn't think we can run, that's different.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Frank Cant dribble well but he does have very good vision in my opinion.

what difference does it make if he can see a play yet not execute it?

 

[STEVEHOLT]

If he's instructed to take the ball up slowly in our backcourt when under no pressure, then JB is out of his damn mind. I know JB doesn't think we can run, that's different.

cant we at least run the ball up the court faster to set up the "offense" a few seconds earlier even if we aren't intending to score quickly?

 

[Trueblue25]

just keep in mind when comparing frank's stats to those of his acc peers that minute wise he plays an extra 3 games a year.

You think that helps? Id rather have grant, fair, triche, cooney, christmas, g around me than 3 extra minutes of god forsaken exhaustion

 

[ORRange]

Yea, Franks the sole reason for our lack of offense.

I said "main culprit" not sole reason. Don't put words in my mouth. What do you think of our half court offensive sets? Why do you think Frank won't make the entry pass to the foul line like Tyus does? Do you think a few games ago Frank was intentionally not passing the ball to Washington on the 45 when the kid was wide open? Yeah we're all nuts. Good one.

 

[rrlbees]

I said "main culprit" not sole reason. Don't put words in my mouth. What do you think of our half court offensive sets? Why do you think Frank won't make the entry pass to the foul line like Tyus does? Do you think a few games ago Frank was intentionally not passing the ball to Washington on the 45 when the kid was wide open? Yeah we're all nuts. Good one.

Yes, some of you are nuts. And try to see things that aren’t there.

 

[iommi]

Yes, some of you are nuts. And try to see things that aren’t there.

Others ignore things that are plainly there to see. I was going to call those people "nuts" but I won't use that label.

 

[RF2044]

Think many fans are ridiculously over critical of Frank. Few players in the past 25 years of Cuse basketball have made as big of jumps in production and maturity as Frank has from last year to this year. No, he’s not perfect, he turns the ball over and has to continue improving on his loose handle. His technical vs GT was a complete lapse in judgement but watching this team you can tell they’re all visibly frustrated and want a win as badly as you or I.

I think these accusations that he’s not an ACC calibre player are ridiculous. Hes leading the conference in steals per game, is a double digit scorer, creates his own shot and has proven he’s capable of being a 35% three point shooter when he doesnt have to force shots. Bennett thought he was an ACC guard when he offered him. Jay Wright offered him to be a guard on a soon to be championship team. Florida, Gtown, Buzz etc. etc.

Find it hilarious that people are saying they wish they had Triche and Scoop in his place. These were past board whipping boys as well who each were quality players on great Syracuse teams. I have little doubt though that if Frank were allowed to play his natural position, the 2, he’d outperform Triche’s numbers not that he already isn’t. Scoop was a finesse natural ball handler. I dont think its fair to compare him to a guy pressed into the 1 by jb’s style of recruiting. However, scoop also had multiple nba players playing alongside him. Frank has 2 freshman, a redshirt frosh, a sophomore with similar unreasonable expectations, and chukwu. Thats a lineup Triche, ennis, and jardine would struggle with as well.

All in all i just find it surprising many people cant find it in them to applaud his development rather than criticize it.

Maybe we prefer the one and done culture thats helped cause this lack of depth and feeling of lacking player development?

I really dislike threads like this -- and this is coming from a huge, unabashed Frank supporter. The reason I dislike them is that BOTH sides are correct. Frank has made huge improvements. BUT, he's also displaying limitations that impair the team's execution of half court offensive sets. What we're seeing offensively is not all his fault by any means, but some of it is. Pointing that out isn't being "ridiculously over critical of Frank" -- it is being objective about his capabilities / gaps in his game at this stage of his developmental curve.

As frustrating as the Frank bashers are, it is equally frustrating to have a bunch of overzealous Frank supporters who shout down any criticism like a bunch of orange-clad "jehova's witnesses" every time a non-flattering observation is made about his performance. The truth can be somewhere in the middle, and often is. Again, pointing out a limitation is not disparaging the tangible improvement the player has shown compared to last season.

 

[Bayside44]

If he's instructed to take the ball up slowly in our backcourt when under no pressure, then JB is out of his damn mind. I know JB doesn't think we can run, that's different.

So he crosses the line at 25 seconds as opposed to 21? Seems an odd nit to pick.

 

[rrlbees]

I really dislike threads like this -- and this is coming from a huge, unabashed Frank supporter. The reason I dislike them is that BOTH sides are correct. Frank has made huge improvements. BUT, he's also displaying limitations that impair the team's execution of half court offensive sets. What we're seeing offensively is not all his fault by any means, but some of it is. Pointing that out isn't being "ridiculously over critical of Frank" -- it is being objective about his capabilities / gaps in his game at this stage of his developmental curve.

As frustrating as the Frank bashers are, it is equally frustrating to have a bunch of overzealous Frank supporters who shout down any criticism like a bunch of orange-clad "jehova's witnesses" every time a non-flattering observation is made about his performance. The truth can be somewhere in the middle, and often is. Again, pointing out a limitation is not disparaging the tangible improvement the player has shown compared to last season.

It’s not always what people say but how. It’s become an over the top narrative by some posters who post ridiculous things, and those who like those posts, such as he’s not an ACC caliber player, he’s a D3 player, implications that he freezes out other players, etc. The equivalent posts on the other end would be like he’s 1st team all ACC, he’s the best PG SU has had in a long time, etc. Those don’t exist.

There are some people who do a good job at critiquing such as you, Mase, and a few others. Then there are some that let their emotions, dislike and frustration of the season take over.

 

[OttoMets]

I really dislike threads like this -- and this is coming from a huge, unabashed Frank supporter. The reason I dislike them is that BOTH sides are correct. Frank has made huge improvements. BUT, he's also displaying limitations that impair the team's execution of half court offensive sets. What we're seeing offensively is not all his fault by any means, but some of it is. Pointing that out isn't being "ridiculously over critical of Frank" -- it is being objective about his capabilities / gaps in his game at this stage of his developmental curve.

As frustrating as the Frank bashers are, it is equally frustrating to have a bunch of overzealous Frank supporters who shout down any criticism like a bunch of orange-clad "jehova's witnesses" every time a non-flattering observation is made about his performance. The truth can be somewhere in the middle, and often is. Again, pointing out a limitation is not disparaging the tangible improvement the player has shown compared to last season.

I agree (which is why I tend to stay out of the Frank threads - while I always want to defend my favorite players, like Scoop and Frank, the kid's play has been limited enough that I don't have anything positive to say).

But while it's true that Howard's got obvious limitations, I think there's room to point out a likely bias against him on the part of some fans. Because of various innuendos surrounding his behavior last year (stories that I know you know as second-hand fact but stuff that is unfounded rumor to 95% of the posters on here), a lot of people aren't particularly warm to Frank and don't give him the benefit of the doubt that similarly-mediocre SU players have gotten in the last few seasons. In that sense, there's some hypercriticism at play - his performance has earned some criticism, but it's magnified by personal factors.

 

[iommi]

So he crosses the line at 25 seconds as opposed to 21? Seems an odd nit to pick.

I said it was a pet peeve but for a team challenged to get shots up and score, every second matters.

 

[Trueblue25]

I really dislike threads like this -- and this is coming from a huge, unabashed Frank supporter. The reason I dislike them is that BOTH sides are correct. Frank has made huge improvements. BUT, he's also displaying limitations that impair the team's execution of half court offensive sets. What we're seeing offensively is not all his fault by any means, but some of it is. Pointing that out isn't being "ridiculously over critical of Frank" -- it is being objective about his capabilities / gaps in his game at this stage of his developmental curve.

As frustrating as the Frank bashers are, it is equally frustrating to have a bunch of overzealous Frank supporters who shout down any criticism like a bunch of orange-clad "jehova's witnesses" every time a non-flattering observation is made about his performance. The truth can be somewhere in the middle, and often is. Again, pointing out a limitation is not disparaging the tangible improvement the player has shown compared to last season.

This thread was made to contain the argument and let people feel free to express their views and bounce them off one another. Tired of it taking over every thread like the Cooney crap. Lets hash it out in here

 

[SoBeCuse]

It’s not always what people say but how. It’s become an over the top narrative by some posters who post ridiculous things, and those who like those posts, such as he’s not an ACC caliber player, he’s a D3 player, implications that he freezes out other players, etc. The equivalent posts on the other end would be like he’s 1st team all ACC, he’s the best PG SU has had in a long time, etc. Those don’t exist.

There are some people who do a good job at critiquing such as you, Mase, and a few others. Then there are some that let their emotions, dislike and frustration of the season take over.

Now just wait a minute. Nobody, even me, has said he isn’t an ACC player, or some D3 player. You’re just making things up. You don’t seem to even debate or discuss some of the obvious issues many of us bring up like the ballhandling and speed limitations. Those do handicap and discombobulate whatever slop we do deploy. Is he the sole culprit? No! Who the hell said he is? I think he is a big piece of the problem but there are so many. Instead, you pontificate with a response like “wrong” or “no” as if we’re idiots or blatantly lying.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Now just wait a minute. Nobody, even me, has said he isn’t an ACC player, or some D3 player. You’re just making things up. You don’t seem to seem to even debate or discuss some of the obvious issues many of us bring up like the ballhandling and speed limitations. Those do handicap and discombobulate whatever slop we do deploy. Is he the sole culprit? No! Who the hell said he is? I think he is a big piece of the problem but there are so many. Instead, you pontificate with a response like “wrong” or “no” as if we’re idiots or blatantly lying.

He’s not making it up. I’ve had people tell me he wasn’t a Power 5 player in rebuts to my posts here. I then said he was recruited by Maryland and Virginia so that made no sense to me.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Anybody comparing Frank to Scoop has to have their heads examined. It’s possible Frank at the 2 is better than Triche playing the 2. Triche however was a far better athlete, ballhandler, played downhill, etc., when playing PG.

I think Frank IS an ACC caliber player. Off the bench as a key cog at the 2 and short stints at PG. Play him 20 mpg. Fine. He can bring value to a team there. Aren’t we THE only team who recruited him as a PG? I mean, it started VERY early in the game. He couldn’t get past Guy. I knew it was over in the first few mins. Opposing PGs have little trouble with Alvarado. Georgia Tech gives up a LOT of points to opposing teams’ guards and starting backcourts. I honestly blame the staff on this one. I mean, they DID know this that they mucked it up somewhat, IMO. That’s why they went so hard after Quade.

I haven't watched UVA all that much, but doesn't Guy play on the number one defense? Seems like if a lot of people can get past Guy, it would be extremely hard for them to keep that up. And I recall he actually did get past one of the guards to the basket for at least one bucket. I think you all tend to discount the problem Chukwu represents for any guard on our team. He clogs things up so badly, and his defender never has to go outside the lane either. It's a lot more difficult to get around your defender when you know you are going to run up against a much taller guy as well.

Our extremely limited offense is a big problem all around.

 

[SoBeCuse]

He’s not making it up. I’ve had people tell me he wasn’t a Power 5 player in rebuts to my posts here. I then said he was recruited by Maryland and Virginia so that made no sense to me.

Well, I haven’t seen those. I’m not going to stand being called out and have words put in my mouth. When the guy struggles to get by Guy, Markus Carr/Parker Stewart, Rex Pflueger, etc., you have problems. That’s factual evidence and that’s just one aspect. I’d LOVE for him ideally to be a 2G coming off the bench for 20-25 minutes. He does have good vision I think and he can score in certain ways. A SG who can pass is huge. Then he can handle the ball a little bit at the 2 spot. But, watching him play PG is becoming increasingly really difficult.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I haven't watched UVA all that much, but doesn't Guy play on the number one defense? Seems like if a lot of people can get past Guy, it would be extremely hard for them to keep that up. And I recall he actually did get past one of the guards to the basket for at least one bucket. I think you all tend to discount the problem Chukwu represents for any guard on our team. He clogs things up so badly, and his defender never has to go outside the lane either. It's a lot more difficult to get around your defender when you know you are going to run up against a much taller guy as well.

Our extremely limited offense is a big problem all around.

Guy in fact lets a lot of people get by him because of that pack line. They force a lot of drive and kicks for bad threes. It just so happens that Frank is one of the few guys he could guard, IMO.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I don't know how anyone can say Guy isn't a good defender. Last year that may have been the case, but definately not this year.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Guy in fact lets a lot of people get by him because of that pack line. They force a lot of drive and kicks for bad threes. It just so happens that Frank is one of the few guys he could guard, IMO.

Yeah, that doesn't make any sense.

 

[RF2044]

Well, I haven’t seen those. I’m not going to stand being called out and have words put in my mouth. When the guy struggles to get by Guy, Markus Carr/Parker Stewart, Rex Pflueger, etc., you have problems. That’s factual evidence and that’s just one aspect. I’d LOVE for him ideally to be a 2G coming off the bench for 20-25 minutes. He does have good vision I think and he can score in certain ways. A SG who can pass is huge. Then he can handle the ball a little bit at the 2 spot. But, watching him play PG is becoming increasingly really difficult.

My opinion only, but I think Frank will benefit immensely from playing alongside a versatile backcourt partner who can handle some of the ball-handling / playmaking responsibilities. Battle is a terrific scorer and a good defender at the top of the zone, but he doesn't provide much by way of those things.

In that respect, I wonder if it will be a better "fit" having him play alongside Carey -- a guy who can push the ball, who can get to the rim, score, and pass. Not that either of them will be full time traditional lead guards, but just having somebody who can do those things might make for a more "complimentary" backcourt pairing. Frank might be a helluva lot more effective under the "less is more" paradigm, in terms of having to shoulder playmaking responsibilities on his own.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Well, I haven’t seen those. I’m not going to stand being called out and have words put in my mouth. When the guy struggles to get by Guy, Markus Carr/Parker Stewart, Rex Pflueger, etc., you have problems. That’s factual evidence and that’s just one aspect. I’d LOVE for him ideally to be a 2G coming off the bench for 20-25 minutes. He does have good vision I think and he can score in certain ways. A SG who can pass is huge. Then he can handle the ball a little bit at the 2 spot. But, watching him play PG is becoming increasingly really difficult.

If Guy was on our team he would lead us in defensive win shares. He also completely shut down Grayson Allen last weekend.

 

[SoBeCuse]

My opinion only, but I think Frank will benefit immensely from playing alongside a versatile backcourt partner who can handle some of the ball-handling / playmaking responsibilities. Battle is a terrific scorer and a good defender at the top of the zone, but he doesn't provide much by way of those things.

In that respect, I wonder if it will be a better "fit" having him play alongside Carey -- a guy who can push the ball, who can get to the rim, score, and pass. Not that either of them will be full time traditional lead guards, but just having somebody who can do those things might make for a more "complimentary" backcourt pairing. Frank might be a helluva lot more effective under the "less is more" paradigm, in terms of having to shoulder playmaking responsibilities on his own.

Agreed. He just is asked to do too much. I think there is an ideal role for him like you mentioned. But, it goes back to the staff, roster issues, and him being put in this position now.

 

[SoBeCuse]

If Guy was on our team he would lead us in defensive win shares. He also completely shut down Grayson Allen last weekend.

Hard to quantify Guy in a zone defense. I didn’t see the game. Allen has been more of a stationary chucker from what I have seen this year. So did they put Hall on Duval or something?

 

[Shrmdougluvr]

First, its a fallacy to think that at this level, point guards are always breaking down the man who's guarding them. We've had one point guard in the past 30 years who could legitimately take his man off the dribble whenever he wanted - Jonny Flynn. Only the most elite players are able to do this in the college game. Why anyone would argue this as a point against Frank, a kid who was essentially recruited to be length at the top of the zone, and to competently get the ball up court and distribute off, is beyond me and is unreasonable.

Second, Frank and Battle are playing offense 2.5 on 5. Every defense they face is keyed on stopping them and stopping their penetration. When Chukwu is out there, you have a player that you cannot even trust passing the ball. Moyer and Marek have no ability to draw defenders. COuple that with an offense that draws defenders to him, and requires them to play to the end of the shot clock, thereby creating low percentage opportunities, i dont know what more you could expect from Frank, or any point for that matter.