The Frank Howard Thunder Dome

[SoBeCuse]

First, its a fallacy to think that at this level, point guards are always breaking down the man who's guarding them. We've had one point guard in the past 30 years who could legitimately take his man off the dribble whenever he wanted - Jonny Flynn. Only the most elite players are able to do this in the college game. Why anyone would argue this as a point against Frank, a kid who was essentially recruited to be length at the top of the zone, and to competently get the ball up court and distribute off, is beyond me and is unreasonable.

Second, Frank and Battle are playing offense 2.5 on 5. Every defense they face is keyed on stopping them and stopping their penetration. When Chukwu is out there, you have a player that you cannot even trust passing the ball. Moyer and Marek have no ability to draw defenders. COuple that with an offense that draws defenders to him, and requires them to play to the end of the shot clock, thereby creating low percentage opportunities, i dont know what more you could expect from Frank, or any point for that matter.

I disagree about only elite guys making those kinds of plays. It happens every game on hundreds of teams, IMO. Sure, it is tougher against good guards but the depleted ND roster, Pitt, and Georgia Tech are not those. The offense JB is trying to run now is predicated upon driving. To me there is not enough of that happening based on limitations and instead we are seeing so much passing side to side with the shot clock winding down constantly.

 

[rrlbees]

Now just wait a minute. Nobody, even me, has said he isn’t an ACC player, or some D3 player. You’re just making things up. You don’t seem to even debate or discuss some of the obvious issues many of us bring up like the ballhandling and speed limitations. Those do handicap and discombobulate whatever slop we do deploy. Is he the sole culprit? No! Who the hell said he is? I think he is a big piece of the problem but there are so many. Instead, you pontificate with a response like “wrong” or “no” as if we’re idiots or blatantly lying.

Not making up one darn thing.

 

[Trueblue25]

Numerous posters have claimed that Frank’s not Acc or Syracuse calibre. That has happened.

 

[rrlbees]

Well, I haven’t seen those. I’m not going to stand being called out and have words put in my mouth. When the guy struggles to get by Guy, Markus Carr/Parker Stewart, Rex Pflueger, etc., you have problems. That’s factual evidence and that’s just one aspect. I’d LOVE for him ideally to be a 2G coming off the bench for 20-25 minutes. He does have good vision I think and he can score in certain ways. A SG who can pass is huge. Then he can handle the ball a little bit at the 2 spot. But, watching him play PG is becoming increasingly really difficult.

Called out? I don’t believe I named one person.

 

[Arangeman]

I like when we get to the point where people are venting about people venting.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Numerous posters have claimed that Frank’s not Acc or Syracuse calibre. That has happened.

That would be unfair. Again I just think he is being misused and some of it isn’t his fault .

 

[TinyManInside]

Guy in fact lets a lot of people get by him because of that pack line. They force a lot of drive and kicks for bad threes. It just so happens that Frank is one of the few guys he could guard, IMO.

I live in VA and see a lot of the UVA games. Guy is a really, really good defensive player this year. He hasn't given up much dribble penetration in the games I've watched. Their team perimeter defense is phenomenal and to be honest it is pretty impressive how little helpside defense they use (but their helpside is great when necessary). Really helps to have guys who can keep opposing teams out of the paint.

 

[Trueblue25]

That would be unfair. Again I just think he is being misused and some of it isn’t his fault .

Id agree that hes being misused. Its unfortunate because if we had a natural guard, i think Frank could be one of the better 2’s we’ve had in years. Tyus could take some pressure off oshae and man the 2 and 3

 

[manleyzoo]

Because you’re not realistic. Hes in a public position where he’s going receive praise/ criticism. Take your orange colored glasses off. This is the real world. Nothing said that i read is personal, it’s just describing his game through rational/ unbiased eyes.

Fans aren't realistic nor are they unbiased. That's why they're called fans. And he's not a public figure. He's a college basketball player. A public figure isn't known only by a relative handful of people as he is. He plays in a forum open to the public but that doesn't put him in a public position. If it did, he'd either do or say things of interest to the public (as in fans, non-fans and bystanders) in one form or another. That's not him.

 

[Madbiker]

FYI --- Frank Howard is last in the ACC among point guards in assist/turn over average.
When your assist/TO ratio is poor you are going to struggle.

Per ESPN ACC stats through 2/4/18

1. Louisville -Snider 2.61
2. NC St - Johnson 2.49
3. Va Tech - Robinson 2.43
4. Virginia - Jerome 2.26
5. Duke - Duval 2.25
6. FSU - Mann 2.13
7. ND - Farrell 2.04
8. Clemson - Mitchell 1.94
9. Miami - Brown 1.77
10. UNC - Berry 1.71
11. BC - Bowman 1.63
12. Pitt - Carr 1.47
13. WF - Crawford 1.41
14. GT - Alvarado 1.38
15. Syracuse - Howard 1.30

 

[SoBeCuse]

I live in VA and see a lot of the UVA games. Guy is a really, really good defensive player this year. He hasn't given up much dribble penetration in the games I've watched. Their team perimeter defense is phenomenal and to be honest it is pretty impressive how little helpside defense they use (but their helpside is great when necessary). Really helps to have guys who can keep opposing teams out of the paint.

Interesting. I have not seen that in the games I have watched re: Guy. Regardless I really enjoy watching them and their philosophies on both sides of the ball. I do think a team with good guards will take them out in the Tourney sooner than later.

 

[TinyManInside]

Interesting. I have not seen that in the games I have watched re: Guy. Regardless I really enjoy watching them and their philosophies on both sides of the ball. I do think a team with good guards will take them out in the Tourney sooner than later.

I think they are a high floor/low ceiling team. Would be surprised to see them make it past the Elite 8 but I also think they'll easily win their first 2 tourney games.

 

[manleyzoo]

Now just wait a minute. Nobody, even me, has said he isn’t an ACC player, or some D3 player. You’re just making things up. You don’t seem to even debate or discuss some of the obvious issues many of us bring up like the ballhandling and speed limitations. Those do handicap and discombobulate whatever slop we do deploy. Is he the sole culprit? No! Who the hell said he is? I think he is a big piece of the problem but there are so many. Instead, you pontificate with a response like “wrong” or “no” as if we’re idiots or blatantly lying.

Maybe you didn't say the ACC or D3 thing and correct me if I'm mistaken but wasn't it you that said something to the effect that no D1 coach in his right mind in the country would put Frank at the point? Kind of makes him the main culprit. It baffles me that our supposed first round draft choice and best player on the team turns out to be an erratic shooter, mediocre ball handler and poor passer yet it's still Frank who's a big piece of the problem. The problem is Battle isn't as good as everyone thought and certainly not good enough to rescue this team from it's bad offense. If there's any continuing threads about who's a culprit it should be about Battle.

 

[albanycuse]

I could see Duke losing again in the first round.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

First, its a fallacy to think that at this level, point guards are always breaking down the man who's guarding them. We've had one point guard in the past 30 years who could legitimately take his man off the dribble whenever he wanted - Jonny Flynn. Only the most elite players are able to do this in the college game. Why anyone would argue this as a point against Frank, a kid who was essentially recruited to be length at the top of the zone, and to competently get the ball up court and distribute off, is beyond me and is unreasonable.

Second, Frank and Battle are playing offense 2.5 on 5. Every defense they face is keyed on stopping them and stopping their penetration. When Chukwu is out there, you have a player that you cannot even trust passing the ball. Moyer and Marek have no ability to draw defenders. COuple that with an offense that draws defenders to him, and requires them to play to the end of the shot clock, thereby creating low percentage opportunities, i dont know what more you could expect from Frank, or any point for that matter.

Your second paragraph is so true. Driving is nearly impossible when you don't have to respect outside shooters other than Frank and Battle. If I'm playing Brissett, I let him take outside shots until he makes one. The rest of the team, forget it, they aren't even going to try.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Maybe you didn't say the ACC of D3 thing and correct me if I'm mistaken but wasn't it you that said something to the effect that no D1 coach in his right mind in the country would put Frank at the point? Kind of makes him the main culprit. It baffles me that our supposed first round draft choice and best player on the team turns out to be an erratic shooter, mediocre ball handler and poor passer yet it's still Frank who's a big piece of the problem. The problem is Battle isn't as good as everyone thought and certainly not good enough to rescue this team from it's bad offense. If there's any continuing threads about who's a culprit it should be about Battle.

Oh Battle has his own issues. But, yes, I said that. I think Frank has too many limitations in his game to be a primary ball handler and PG. I think he would make ANY coach extremely nervous. I’ve belabored it enough the ideal role for him in my opinion.

 

[HSPORANGE]

I could see Duke losing again in the first round.

I could also see Duke cutting down the nets. They are loaded with talent but very young.

 

[Fly Rodder]

If I'm playing Brissett, I let him take outside shots until he makes one. The rest of the team, forget it, they aren't even going to try.

Brissett is shooting 35% from three in conference. I hope they continue to let him shoot from there.

 

[manleyzoo]

Oh Battle has his own issues. But, yes, I said that. I think Frank has too many limitations in his game to be a primary ball handler and PG. I think he would make ANY coach extremely nervous. I’ve belabored it enough the ideal role for him in my opinion.

Here's what I don't get: Battle's supposedly the main guy. He's way under performing in a number of key areas so why doesn't the heat come his way instead? It's Battle that has too many limitations in his game as a shooter, ball handler and passer to be the main guy. So that means we have no main guy. It's Battle who should be on the hot seat until he proves otherwise, which looks more and more like it isn't going to happen. It's like saying that your cleanup hitter is just okay but the team is pretty bad because your lead off guy doesn't hit enough doubles.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Brissett is shooting 35% from three in conference. I hope they continue to let him shoot from there.

Me too. And I hope he makes them at a similar pace.

 

[albanycuse]

Here's what I don't get: Battle's supposedly the main guy. He's way under performing in a number of key areas so why doesn't the heat come his way instead? It's Battle that has too many limitations in his game as a shooter, ball handler and passer to be the main guy. So that means we have no main guy. It's Battle who should be on the hot seat until he proves otherwise, which looks more and more like it isn't going to happen. It's like saying that your cleanup hitter is just okay but the team is pretty bad because your lead off guy doesn't hit enough doubles.

You must of missed the thread about him.

 

[TinyManInside]

Here's what I don't get: Battle's supposedly the main guy. He's way under performing in a number of key areas so why doesn't the heat come his way instead? It's Battle that has too many limitations in his game as a shooter, ball handler and passer to be the main guy. So that means we have no main guy. It's Battle who should be on the hot seat until he proves otherwise, which looks more and more like it isn't going to happen. It's like saying that your cleanup hitter is just okay but the team is pretty bad because your lead off guy doesn't hit enough doubles.

A lot of Howard being singled out is due to his role in off-court incidents last year that supposedly disrupted team chemistry and may even have hurt in the recruitment of a player.

For what it's worth, I was told about 4 different scenarios/explanations of what he did, and none of them were consistent with each other... so honestly I refuse to form an opinion about his supposed off court issues when I can't get a clear idea of what he actually did. I should also point out that this is an anomaly for me over the last 20 years. Almost every time I've been tipped off about off-court shenanigans, the rumors I get match up to what eventually gets reported in the papers. This time, for some unknown reason, the stories are all over the place? So weird.

 

[manleyzoo]

You must of missed the thread about him.

Oh I saw it alright but it was kinda hard to see among the endless Frank threads. Should be the other way around IMO.

 

[manleyzoo]

A lot of Howard being singled out is due to his role in off-court incidents last year that supposedly disrupted team chemistry and may even have hurt in the recruitment of a player.

For what it's worth, I was told about 4 different scenarios/explanations of what he did, and none of them were consistent with each other... so honestly I refuse to form an opinion about his supposed off court issues when I can't get a clear idea of what he actually did. I should also point out that this is an anomaly for me over the last 20 years. Almost every time I've been tipped off about off-court shenanigans, the rumors I get match up to what eventually gets reported in the papers. This time, for some unknown reason, the stories are all over the place? So weird.

I agree for sure on why Frank is singled out. But that team last year had bad chemistry on its own and there's no telling if the recruit in question would have come here.

No matter...on the court this year Battle is the real disappointment. Frank's grown, ostensibly moved past whatever he did or didn't do last year. What he's proven, if anything, is young people actually do grow up for the better in most cases. As a player, Battle hasn't grown much from last year so as the main guy the heat should be aimed at him. To me, and this is another topic altogether, the problem this year is the same as the last few years: The coach has confused his still being able to walk and chew gum at his age with what's best for the program he built. When he continually references what coaches did 40 or more years ago as justification for what he does now, you know you've got a problem.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I agree for sure on why Frank is singled out. But that team last year had bad chemistry on its own and there's no telling if the recruit in question would have come here.

No matter...on the court this year Battle is the real disappointment. Frank's grown, ostensibly moved past whatever he did or didn't do last year. What he's proven, if anything, is young people actually do grow up for the better in most cases. As a player, Battle hasn't grown much from last year so as the main guy the heat should be aimed at him. To me, and this is another topic altogether, the problem this year is the same as the last few years: The coach has confused his still being able to walk and chew gum at his age with what's best for the program he built. When he continually references what coaches did 40 or more years ago as justification for what he does now, you know you've got a problem.

Actually, since I also can’t corroborate all the Frank rumors and chemistry problems; I am simply going by what I see and do not have any agenda against him. He struggles to get by a LOT of defenders. Yes, teams are packing it in making it tough to get to the basket. They aren’t guarding Marek and Chukwu (actually more players are rolling with him to the basket than we are admitting) but JB wants him to drive and he can’t even get by the first defender often. It is what it is.

Tyus is a guy who just doesn’t make his teammates better, IMO. I think he is a good scorer in stretches and a good athlete, but, has limitations also with the handle and finishing. He’s not a one man wrecking crew type and his vision is subpar. He’s been driving more than anybody though the past couple of games.

I’m curious what people think of Alabama and Oklahoma rosters outside of Sexton and Young. Do they have better players than us or are those two so dynamic? Probably a little of both? I’m sort of torn on the whole ‘could JB do more with this team or not’ issue. A guy like Chris Holtman is working with an ok OSU roster but his attention to detail is phenomenal and they are playing well. Is our team that bad? I don’t know.