The Head Coach has been the issue since Day 1

[Zelda Zonk]

Cupcakes are the old go to but they don't explain JB having the best record in the entire Big East (other than late arriving L'Ville and their short 8 year stay at the very end with Pitino).

Better than UConn, Gtown, Nova, Marquette... all of em. I can't find it but I have seen data that he had a winning record against every coach including Calhoun (Again only Pitino and L'Ville had a 2 game edge in their short stint)

Not to mention the 10th most NCAA wins and the 12th most final four's (I think tourney games are hard to win?)

You can be bullish on AA turning it around without pulling revisionist history about JB (who wanted GMac btw)

It's not really revisionist history. It's history. "Cupcakes" was a long held reputational thing attached to JB and the program. You can google now and find a significant number of examples of people discussing such matters as 'JB not getting the most out of his talent.' As i specifically noted, i was referencing my beginning SU fandom, beginning in 85, and even though there is far less material to find on interwebs from/about that period, it's there in more current articles, posts, etc. There are reporters asking Jim about lack of effort, and him replying that they're wrong (of course), and there are even parts of late articles about him retiring that reference how the media used to "rip" him for certain failures.

We can delight ourselves in the overall record and the long list of accomplishments, and still not deny that 'it wasn't all perfect.'

 

[RedtheGOB]

Lil more rewatch. 3:49 that’s the amount of time the starters played before they all got pulled.

In that time JJ missed a wide open 3 badly. not a bad shot he was wide open and has to make it. Then George and Freeman took bad 3’s and missed badly. They all just stood around. That set the tone for 30 mins.

No one pushed the ball and I’m not sure why cuz we did that at Buffalo. It’s like they were trying to get themselves stuck in bad half court sets.

My best guess is that our Guards just hate playing slow cuz they have to think, and with all the stoppages and all the rotations especially. Pace had about 4 fouls in about 3 mins to start the game and they hit the double bonus while we had 1 foul I think which slowed things down to a crawl. The refs let them play after that and we didn’t seem interested in playing that way so slacked.

It’s like George and JJ even Kings instead of going with their instinct and getting to the rim decided to slow things down each possession. They just passed and dribbled the ball around late into the shot clock or just heaved bad 3’s way too early.

You could tell they wanted to get Donnie and everyone on the court touches every play but that slowed things down way too much and the spacing got out of whack. Really if you watch we had guys open all over the place alot but for some reason we just could not find them. Then no one was decisive and the defense suffered on the other end as usual when the offense is slow and boring. The rebounding was abysmal because their guards rebounded and our didn’t.

I’m not going to opine on the hockey line change and Kiyan running the point and guys like Zephyr and Womack playing. Thats all fun and stuff but shouldn’t happen again.

If this team wants to win they need to play with a crazy pace, press constantly, and speed the other team up.

I know this is an Autry stinks thread and I get it. I’m just trying to figure out why the starters were so bad early on.

 

[Hopkins16]

To follow up on the lack of intensity I also place blame on JJ. He is a senior and supposed leader of the team. He needs to demand that the other players start to play with intensity and call out guys for playing soft. Don’t need to do it publicly yet but time to demand accountability as the senior leader.

I agree, but you have to lead by example. If he called out the team it wouldn’t be inappropriate for someone to say “please look in the mirror.”

 

[23Zone]

Lil more rewatch. 3:49 that’s the amount of time the starters played before they all got pulled.

In that time JJ missed a wide open 3 badly. not a bad shot he was wide open and has to make it. Then George and Freeman took bad 3’s and missed badly. They all just stood around. That set the tone for 30 mins.

No one pushed the ball and I’m not sure why cuz we did that at Buffalo. It’s like they were trying to get themselves stuck in bad half court sets.

My best guess is that our Guards just hate playing slow cuz they have to think, and with all the stoppages and all the rotations especially. Pace had about 4 fouls in about 3 mins to start the game and they hit the double bonus while we had 1 foul I think which slowed things down to a crawl. The refs let them play after that and we didn’t seem interested in playing that way so slacked.

It’s like George and JJ even Kings instead of going with their instinct and getting to the rim decided to slow things down each possession. They just passed and dribbled the ball around late into the shot clock or just heaved bad 3’s way too early.

You could tell they wanted to get Donnie and everyone on the court touches every play but that slowed things down way too much and the spacing got out of whack. Really if you watch we had guys open all over the place alot but for some reason we just could not find them. Then no one was decisive and the defense suffered on the other end as usual when the offense is slow and boring. The rebounding was abysmal because their guards rebounded and our didn’t.

I’m not going to opine on the hockey line change and Kiyan running the point and guys like Zephyr and Womack playing. Thats all fun and stuff but shouldn’t happen again.

If this team wants to win they need to play with a crazy pace, press constantly, and speed the other team up.

I know this is an Autry stinks thread and I get it. I’m just trying to figure out why the starters were so bad early on.

To answer your question, I think at this point they just don't know what they're trying to do. No offensive identity. Hope they figure it out. More Sadiq the better. Maybe Devo can whisper into Red's ear

 

[MikeSU02]

Hypothetical question: let’s say we are majorly improved this year, but we are one of the first teams that miss the NCAA tourney and we are a #1 seed in the NIT. Does Red deserve Year 4 in this scenario?

No. Thats insane.

 

[RedtheGOB]

To answer your question, I think at this point they just don't know what they're trying to do. No offensive identity. Hope they figure it out. More Sadiq the better. Maybe Devo can whisper into Red's ear

Yea If we want to play fast then they gotta run. The guards all just have to push the ball. If we’re not taking a shot in 10-15 seconds then it’s garbage. The Defense needs to press all day and Sadiq will have to carry us.

Let’s be real. No one expects for autry to become some X’s and O’s guy and probably ever. We’re going to live and die by talented rosters.

 

[MikeSU02]

The program will improve when JJ leaves. He's not a winning player.

I won’t go that far, but he’s been an insanely inefficient player and a driver of losing, overall.

Maybe he changes this year. But people here talk about a guy with a <43% FG and < 30% 3PT for his career.

You don’t win with that when that guy is shooting at volume. It’s literally just too many lost possessions.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Hypothetical question: let’s say we are majorly improved this year, but we are one of the first teams that miss the NCAA tourney and we are a #1 seed in the NIT. Does Red deserve Year 4 in this scenario?

hell no.

worst case scenario is he underperforms due to his deficiences but does just enough to keep his job and stick around.

this roster is good enough to do well. and not just have to squeeze into the NCAAT

 

[dasher]

I think looking at it overall is one way. But JB also filled up with cupcakes too. I would look more at league records and such. It was a consistent pattern amongst our best teams talent wise. Anything else is revisionist

While Jb was the coach, Syracuse had the best record in the Big East regular season over 30 years of play. And by the way, it wasn't really close.

 

[Toga]

You don't need a search committee to hire a basketball coach. C'mon.

We don't need no stinking search committee.

 

[chuck]

Listen, I loved Adrian Autry as a player. The '94 game vs. Missouri remains one of the all-time impressive performances by an SU player, even in a loss (the and-one that wasn't from the knees!).

But I don't see how anyone can look at the situation we have and state they have ever felt that the current head coach had a handle on what to do with this program in order to succeed.

First, it was lack of preparation for the portal due to being hired late (he wasn't). Then, it was lack of NIL resources. Now, what's the excuse?

This team has PLENTY of talent to win games. And I am hopeful they prove me wrong and he proves me wrong -- certainly the LeMoyne exhibition is vividly etched in my memory as a cautionary tale to read too much into these games.

However, I continue to see the same things over and over again with the way this team plays. Lack of focus, lack of energy, lack of plan or system. It's not Syracuse basketball.

I think he was even overrated as a player unfortunately.

 

[chuck]

While Jb was the coach, Syracuse had the best record in the Big East regular season over 30 years of play. And by the way, it wasn't really close.

Yup the younger fans only look at the final 7 years tho.

 

[chuck]

To follow up on the lack of intensity I also place blame on JJ. He is a senior and supposed leader of the team. He needs to demand that the other players start to play with intensity and call out guys for playing soft. Don’t need to do it publicly yet but time to demand accountability as the senior leader.

Do it publicly. You dont form leaders by coddling people which what is woke today.

 

[chuck]

During the post game Red called out the problems. Lack of intensity, defensive issues the team playing soft. He sees the issues but unfortunately he is not able to get the players to change or commit. I know it’s his personality but when your team is playing soft you have to get fired up at them. You don’t need to throw chairs or go off the rails but you do have to take it up a level and call them out and show passion. May have to sit some players that don’t want to show 100% intensity. If you cannot get your team to play hard every game for 40 minutes then a coaching change is necessary.

Autry and Griffin are not good coaches and have done nothing worthwhile in there who career as being coaches. Show me something that tells me otherwise.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Autry and Griffin are not good coaches and have done nothing worthwhile in there who career as being coaches. Show me something that tells me otherwise.

I mean they beat #7 ranked UNC in his first year coaching with 6 guys. Thats something else. Before and after that not so much but you asked.

 

[Blanko97]

Hypothetical question: let’s say we are majorly improved this year, but we are one of the first teams that miss the NCAA tourney and we are a #1 seed in the NIT. Does Red deserve Year 4 in this scenario?

Nope. Tournament or bust, frankly last 4 in is beneath us as well

 

[CardiacCuse]

Let’s be real. No one expects for autry to become some X’s and O’s guy and probably ever. We’re going to live and die by talented rosters.

the ceiling on that is middle of the road team that never wins titles

maybe can be ranked or even get a good seed in the NCAAT, nothing more

is that really good enough? is that really what we all want?

 

[Brooky03]

I’m one of those longtime fans capable of objectivity.

Not sure why you would take peers’ public statements about one of their own at face value. What would you expect them to say? But maybe you’re one of ‘those people.’

Meanwhile, you haven’t actually contradicted the assertion that we had top three talent. “Decades of success” were appreciated, which is why it’s easy to contrast the current state of affairs. If they hadn’t been observed, do you think there would be much rationale or justification in ‘demanding’ better performance now?

I’m not a simple person. I have a great deal of mixed feelings about the program. Trying to paint me as singleminded (defending someone else’s position!) is really just a reflection of yourself.

Coach makes program good > good program attracts talented players > coach gets criticized for just rolling the ball out to talented players

Am I getting that right?

We had a lot of players dominate college basketball in Syracuse’s system. We also, notably, put a ton of players in the NBA but had comparatively few excel in the NBA. Were they just elite college talents who had their talent stolen by the Monstars after being drafted? Or, maybe, did they play in a system that allowed them and the team to flourish? Putting the right guys in the right situations is probably more important than having 40 plays that look neat on paper or throwing talent on the court and saying, “idk, score points or something.”

[insert preemptive ‘no, it was not an inability to play man defense that cost any of them a shot at a bigger NBA career’ here]

 

[Eric15]

No. Thats insane.

 

[RedtheGOB]

the ceiling on that is middle of the road team that never wins titles

maybe can be ranked or even get a good seed in the NCAAT, nothing more

is that really good enough? is that really what we all want?

On the job training I guess and he’ll get better over time. Not exactly the world we live in anymore ha. Realistically if I’m making the decisions it’s tourney every year plus a deeper run every 3 years. Then you hope for the stars to align.

Let’s be real too. As far as major programs go which we pretend to be we are paying ten cents on the dollar for the coaches in both our major sports. Sometimes I think people forget what real proven coaches costs unless we really want to take a flier on an unproven up and comer which is a crapshoot.

At least we can all sleep well this year if we stink again knowing that we prob are paying our coaches less than their peers.

 

[orangecuse]

Coach, (the Carrier Dome and the advent of the Big East) makes program very good > very good program attracts talented players > coach gets criticized for just rolling the ball out to talented players

Am I getting that right?

FIFY!

The program was already good prior to JB getting his first gig as a HC. Danforth had the Orangemen in the Final Four in '75 and SU was consistently good in the ECAC prior to JB.

 

[Zelda Zonk]

Coach makes program good > good program attracts talented players > coach gets criticized for just rolling the ball out to talented players

Am I getting that right?

We had a lot of players dominate college basketball in Syracuse’s system. We also, notably, put a ton of players in the NBA but had comparatively few excel in the NBA. Were they just elite college talents who had their talent stolen by the Monstars after being drafted? Or, maybe, did they play in a system that allowed them and the team to flourish? Putting the right guys in the right situations is probably more important than having 40 plays that look neat on paper or throwing talent on the court and saying, “idk, score points or something.”

[insert preemptive ‘no, it was not an inability to play man defense that cost any of them a shot at a bigger NBA career’ here]

I didn’t say or suggest that ‘equation.’

I don’t think it’s disputable, though, that JB had the reputation in the late 80s for being a “laissez faire” coach. And yeah, it was said and written by basketball media and talking heads that he “just rolled the ball out there.”

I wouod disagree that it was criticism, though. As many people who thought that was ‘lazy,‘ there were as many or more who said it was effective toward allowing players to have freedom on the court, and that perspective likely attracted players.

 

[AZOrange]

JB didn’t lack focus, intensity, a plan or system. He had all of those things in spades—until his final years when he got lackadaisical about recruiting and didn’t want to make bigger changes to the offense and defense. His offense wasn’t innovative but it did the job. He got the ball in the best players hands and we created turnovers and transition points out of the zone, traps, and pressure defense. He’s a HOF coach and one of the greatest and most consistent to ever do it. I have my issues with JB, but what you’re saying isn’t true at all, until his final few years.

I never said anything about JB

 

[AZOrange]

I think Billy Edelin and the Wright kids being suspended had something to do with the Vermont loss.

T-Rob's BS technical didn't help.

Yes and that was one of the rubs on those teams…

 

[mikemorg]

I think he was even overrated as a player unfortunately.

It’s kind of nitpicky but I think I agree. I graduated 93 so I saw 3 years in person.‘ He was a massive recruit, Burger Boy and 2x Parade All American. And his performance never quite lived up to that. No All America teams, and not making the NBA. Kinda what I expect with a HS resume like that. He’s probably the 3rd best PG in modern SU history behind Pearl and Sherm, but he’s a lot closer to those behind him on the list than to those two. A very good career but not exceptional.