The Jim Boeheim Show - before Georgetown

[iommi]

Both these posts are beautiful.

JB can spin his remarks any way he wants, he's the captain and has been at the helm for 40 + years, with tremendous success, etc. But, your highlighted remark is a perfect example of his coaching techniques in regards to players he chooses to take his frustrations out on, even if it may be unwarranted and meant for the true culprit. It's rather comical. It goes back years and years...DC would take this outside shot that JB of course didn't want him ever taking, and then pull and curse out Seikaly for not being in position for the rebound...

JB clearly feels that the drop off after Frank is substantial enough to where he feels they can't win, otherwise, Washington would get more run. 100% in agreement that Frank is safe by default, and, he knows it and is very, very fortunate that JB and co. have missed out so badly on point guards over the past few years since Ennis' departure.

The drop off from FH to HW is not that substantial at all and we may never get to see that on the court. But what we WILL find out is that FH WILL wear down if he keeps playing 40. Tyus too. Tyus needs to play 36-37 minutes, I agree with that, but not 40.

(Cue all the people saying JB has 1,000 wins and can't be questioned)

 

[SWC75]

He said it a few weeks ago on his radio show. 3-4 weeks ago?

I don't remember Jim saying that he plays players because it would be unfair to the fans who came to see them.

 

[iommi]

I don't remember Jim saying that he plays players because it would be unfair to the fans who came to see them.

Okay. Maybe it wasn't on the radio show. He did say something similar to what was quoted below.

 

[OttoMets]

Did Boeheim really say that?

With his lack of concern about off court behavior, how much motivation do players have to behave themselves and not embarrass themselves, their team, the school and alumni who believe the school should stand for something besides wins?
After all, most are only in school to play basketball.

Never heard that one either. A link please, OttoMets.

Players have been sat out for things that JB has never made public too.

I recall him saying it other times, but it's definitely in his most recent (the Jack McCallum) book.

 

[OttoMets]

There are degrees of money grabbing. This game is a lot more obvious as a money grab than the average game. GU needs this game more than we do. That is, if you are aware of what their average attendance is in games in which the opponent is not named "Syracuse" or "Villanova".

We recruit well in the DC area and always have. Playing Georgetown --- a school that we rarely compete head-to-head with for players --- does little for that. Maryland would be a better choice for recruiting purposes.

So you want to play Northeastern Private schools? Well just about the whole Big East qualifies (Villanova, Seton Hall, and PC, especially) along with Temple, St Joes and LaSalle in Philly, all the Ivies, GW in DC.

I just think they are taking advantage of people who are stuck mentally in the 1980's and 1990's.

I don't see any negatives here.

Playing Georgetown is the only possible way that Syracuse will be on a national CBS game in December, with Clark Kellogg and some other guy crowing about the team and the history. It's a two-hour commercial for the school, along with the best opportunity to engage thousands of SU alumni and donors in the area.

 

[Townie72]

The drop off from FH to HW is not that substantial at all and we may never get to see that on the court. But what we WILL find out is that FH WILL wear down if he keeps playing 40. Tyus too. Tyus needs to play 36-37 minutes, I agree with that, but not 40.

(Cue all the people saying JB has 1,000 wins and can't be questioned)

Well, JB has coached way more than 1,000 games.

So we are left with the fundamental question of credibility here.

JB says they are not tired and that playing 40 minutes doesn't bother them sufficiently enough to justify taking them out for what he feels is a weaker option. He points to all the time outs and stoppages of play that make this a new playing environment.

Iommi and others say the players are tired, or are probably tired or must be tired.

The data to support this claim is not clear. It is essentially, "Well they must be tired because I think so."

The difference is between 37 minutes and 40 minutes is presented as obvious.

So we are left with who we are to believe. And if Iommi and others are right, JB is purposely (or blindly) leaving players on the floor who are so tired that in that state they are worse than the players sitting on the bench.

 

[Townie72]

I don't see any negatives here.

Playing Georgetown is the only possible way that Syracuse will be on a national CBS game in December, with Clark Kellogg and some other guy crowing about the team and the history. It's a two-hour commercial for the school, along with the best opportunity to engage thousands of SU alumni and donors in the area.

All you say is true.

But ... we have lost the previous years to a team that was not very good. I guess against us it's their NCAA Tournament game and they are super-motivated. This has been damaging to our own Tournament selection chances.

And not playing them hurts them more than it hurts us and weakens them as a factor in the Northeast - Mid-Atlantic for recruiting.

I'm perfectly willing to see them continue along the downward path into irrelevance. Why throw them a life vest.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Whether we play them or not, both programs will find out how relevant/irrelevant they are in conference play. Both programs are in pretty tough basketball conferences. (KenPom has the ACC #2 and the Big East #4 to date)

 

[AZOrange]

The drop off from FH to HW is not that substantial at all and we may never get to see that on the court. But what we WILL find out is that FH WILL wear down if he keeps playing 40. Tyus too. Tyus needs to play 36-37 minutes, I agree with that, but not 40.

(Cue all the people saying JB has 1,000 wins and can't be questioned)

I’m not a huge FH fan but I don’t think the players are that close.

 

[iommi]

I’m not a huge FH fan but I don’t think the players are that close.

How do you know?

 

[AZOrange]

How do you know?

By what I see on the court? Was that a trick question?

 

[iommi]

By what I see on the court? Was that a trick question?

No, wasn't meant to be sarcastic either. I've seen Howard play full games in high school but we haven't seen enough of him at SU. He hasn't been given enough of a shot. Based on what I've seen of him in high school, he's be more than capable of giving us 8 MPG in place of FH and TB but I don't think you can say FH and HW are not close.

For all those who think I want anything else, all I'm asking is for HW to get real backup minutes. I do think FH has shown he's better, but he should sit some to keep him fresh and allow FH to observe the game from the bench. As Seth Greenberg tweeted today, he's worried about us wearing down. So am I.

 

[AZOrange]

No, wasn't meant to be sarcastic either. I've seen Howard play full games in high school but we haven't seen enough of him at SU. He hasn't been given enough of a shot. Based on what I've seen of him in high school, he's be more than capable of giving us 8 MPG in place of FH and TB but I don't think you can say FH and HW are not close.

For all those who think I want anything else, all I'm asking is for HW to get real backup minutes. I do think FH has shown he's better, but he should sit some to keep him fresh and allow FH to observe the game from the bench. As Seth Greenberg tweeted today, he's worried about us wearing down. So am I.

He played in the first half and immediately jacked up a hideous shot. I said a couple weeks ago that the drop from Geno to HW wasn’t that great (and I still think that), but the difference between HW and FH is vast. Size and physicality alone. I’m not worried about wear. Tear maybe.

Also if he could give us minutes JB would do it.

 

[pfister1]

"There's no reason not to play them" is not the same thing as they belong on our schedule.

The game is a money grab aimed at those filled with nostalgia who cannot see its a meaningless game in reality.

By that standard aren't all out of conference games meaningless.

 

[pfister1]

No, wasn't meant to be sarcastic either. I've seen Howard play full games in high school but we haven't seen enough of him at SU. He hasn't been given enough of a shot. Based on what I've seen of him in high school, he's be more than capable of giving us 8 MPG in place of FH and TB but I don't think you can say FH and HW are not close.

For all those who think I want anything else, all I'm asking is for HW to get real backup minutes. I do think FH has shown he's better, but he should sit some to keep him fresh and allow FH to observe the game from the bench. As Seth Greenberg tweeted today, he's worried about us wearing down. So am I.

The point that I think you are failing to acknowledge is that while HW may be capable of bringing the ball up and initiating offense without falling flat on his face, I don't think he is even close to being an offensive threat. If you have TB, FH and OB on the floor with him, sure he might get the opportunity to score. If he is out there with only two other offensive threats I think we are in freaking BIG trouble. JB can't afford to sit Frank because he it too big a part of any chance we have of putting points on the board. Take FH out and the defense can focus even more attention on TB and OB...how is that good for the team.

If HW was close to a viable sixth or seventh man, there is no question in my mind that JB would be using him because Frank's play has been uneven at times. JB was willing to force feed Geno minutes, but he isn't willing to do so with HW. Tells me whatever you think you saw in his high school games, hasn't yet translated to this level in the practices that JB is watching on a daily basis.

 

[iommi]

He played in the first half and immediately jacked up a hideous shot. I said a couple weeks ago that the drop from Geno to HW wasn’t that great (and I still think that), but the difference between HW and FH is vast. Size and physicality alone. I’m not worried about wear. Tear maybe.

Also if he could give us minutes JB would do it.

Shot was a force and I said so on Twitter. That was almost literally the first bad thing he's done all year. His other shots were all good ones. He doesn't turn the ball over. His defense has been fine.

And if there's not much of a drop from Geno, why wouldn't you play him? You and others want to only play 2 guards now? I don't get it. And I'll repeat what I keep saying: injuries and foul trouble happens. Wouldn't it be wise to give HW minutes so when that stuff happens, he can jump in comfortably? A two guard rotation is a joke and it is only a matter of time until that blows up in our face.

JB has historically not given minutes to players who could've helped us.

 

[br801]

JB has historically not given minutes to players who could've helped us.

JB historically coaches to win the game at hand and uses only those players he trusts. Expecting him to change his philosophy 42 years in is an exercise in futility.

 

[iommi]

The point that I think you are failing to acknowledge is that while HW may be capable of bringing the ball up and initiating offense without falling flat on his face, I don't think he is even close to being an offensive threat. If you have TB, FH and OB on the floor with him, sure he might get the opportunity to score. If he is out there with only two other offensive threats I think we are in freaking BIG trouble. JB can't afford to sit Frank because he it too big a part of any chance we have of putting points on the board. Take FH out and the defense can focus even more attention on TB and OB...how is that good for the team.

If HW was close to a viable sixth or seventh man, there is no question in my mind that JB would be using him because Frank's play has been uneven at times. JB was willing to force feed Geno minutes, but he isn't willing to do so with HW. Tells me whatever you think you saw in his high school games, hasn't yet translated to this level in the practices that JB is watching on a daily basis.

Good post. Fair post. I do think he'd be fine with TB or FH, OB, MD and a center. I get your point about the lack of offense but he's better offensively than you guys think. More minutes and that will come out. He can shoot, he can pass and he's smart and steady. Very rarely makes a bad play.

I disagree about him not showing it in practice being why he's not playing. I'm not saying he is showing it but I think this is just JB riding or dying with TB and FH. He's done that in the past and he's doing it this year. He keeps saying kids can play 40 no problem.

We play a decent Buffalo team. Would be cool of HW, a Buffalo native, played some minutes but well...probably not.

 

[iommi]

JB historically coaches to win the game at hand and uses only those players he trusts. Expecting him to change his philosophy 42 years in is an exercise in futility.

The difference here is that we only have 3 guards and literally 8 scholarship players and are currently only playing a two-man backcourt.

When a player is recruited and he and his family are given an expectation of playing time and it doesn't happen, it's a bit frustrating. I have no skin in the game. I just think HW can help. If JB doesn't, that's unfortunate. He also didn't play guys like MCW right away, who were infinitely more talented than HW as freshmen. So I get it but this is different.

 

[Townie72]

By that standard aren't all out of conference games meaningless.

Not really. They have weight in making the tournament and seeding. They prepare a team for the Conference schedule.

And that's what SU should concentrate on.

When you throw another variable into the selection of opponent mix of maximizing the revenue than you are taking your eye off the first two, real objectives.

The more objectives you have, the less well you are going to be able to satisfy each of them.

We have lost two of three to this highly-motivated, non-NCAA tourney team and we could have easily lost yesterday.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

JB has historically not given minutes to players who could've helped us.

It's tough to argue with Boeheim's coaching philosophy when you look at his career success. I really feel that he was using analytics way before it became popular. Why else would he let teams go off from three point line in the first half knowing that the percentages that they will cool off eventually in the second half. Why else would he put the breaks on with five minutes to go in a game instead of going for the jugular when his goal is to limit the number of possessions that opponent has.

So, maybe Howard Washington could give some good minutes, but in his analytical brain (and he did look like a math geek before he met Julie) he is saying that he has a better chance to win by playing Tyus Battle and Frank Howard 40 minutes. Just my opinion.

 

[br801]

The difference here is that we only have 3 guards and literally 8 scholarship players and are currently only playing a two-man backcourt.

When a player is recruited and he and his family are given an expectation of playing time and it doesn't happen, it's a bit frustrating. I have no skin in the game. I just think HW can help. If JB doesn't, that's unfortunate. He also didn't play guys like MCW right away, who were infinitely more talented than HW as freshmen. So I get it but this is different.

Washington will play if and when JB has no choice. I have no doubt he is capable, but you, more than most here, should understand that the leap from high school to high D1 basketball is a steep one. He's sitting behind our two most experienced players who also happen to be our primary scorers and ballhandlers, not to mention two of only three guys on this team who can create their own shot. Be patient.

 

[Townie72]

It's tough to argue with Boeheim's coaching philosophy when you look at his career success. I really feel that he was using analytics way before it became popular. Why else would he let teams go off from three point line in the first half knowing that the percentages that they will cool off eventually in the second half. Why else would he put the breaks on with five minutes to go in a game instead of going for the jugular when his goal is to limit the number of possessions that opponent has.

So, maybe Howard Washington could give some good minutes, but in his analytical brain (and he did look like a math geek before he met Julie) he is saying that he has a better chance to win by playing Tyus Battle and Frank Howard 40 minutes. Just my opinion.

Actually that's JB's opinion too. (Q.E.D.)

 

[cliftonparksufan]

Actually that's JB's opinion too. (Q.E.D.)

For some reason your comment made me think of this old TV show.

 

[iommi]

Washington will play if and when JB has no choice. I have no doubt he is capable, but you, more than most here, should understand that the leap from high school to high D1 basketball is a steep one. He's sitting behind our two most experienced players who also happen to be our primary scorers and ballhandlers, not to mention two of only three guys on this team who can create their own shot. Be patient.

I understand the leap but this is a kid who was a solid playmaker for Ben Simmons, then ran the show and got the ball for Oshae and Jahvon Blair at AI. He was a top 100 recruit before he went to Canada. Your post above is accurate. I especially like your last two sentences.

All I'm asking for is a few minutes a half. But I know you're right. I don't have to agree with what JB is doing. It is what it is.