The Jim Boeheim Show - before Georgetown

[br801]

I understand the leap but this is a kid who was a solid playmaker for Ben Simmons, then ran the show and got the ball for Oshae and Jahvon Blair at AI. He was a top 100 recruit before he went to Canada. Your post above is accurate. I especially like your last two sentences.

All I'm asking for is a few minutes a half. But I know you're right. I don't have to agree with what JB is doing. It is what it is.

I've liked what I've seen from Washington in his limited minutes. He will just have to gain his experience in practice playing against (and with) Battle and Howard, and be ready when he's called upon. If he's as capable as you and I think, he'll be fine when those situations arise.

 

[iommi]

I've liked what I've seen from Washington in his limited minutes. He will just have to gain his experience in practice playing against (and with) Battle and Howard, and be ready when he's called upon. If he's as capable as you and I think, he'll be fine when those situations arise.

Yep. I know he works hard and is very coachable. He's in a tough spot, especially with the guards we have coming in. Hope he finds a role here at some point.

 

[AZOrange]

Shot was a force and I said so on Twitter. That was almost literally the first bad thing he's done all year. His other shots were all good ones. He doesn't turn the ball over. His defense has been fine.

And if there's not much of a drop from Geno, why wouldn't you play him? You and others want to only play 2 guards now? I don't get it. And I'll repeat what I keep saying: injuries and foul trouble happens. Wouldn't it be wise to give HW minutes so when that stuff happens, he can jump in comfortably? A two guard rotation is a joke and it is only a matter of time until that blows up in our face.

JB has historically not given minutes to players who could've helped us.

Whoa relax. I never said he shouldn’t get minutes. I said if he and frank were close (your point) he would. He doesn’t because they’re not (my point). I’d love to see him play a bit, but he’s nowhere near Frank. And that’s saying a lot.

 

[iommi]

Whoa relax. I never said he shouldn’t get minutes. I said if he and frank were close (your point) he would. He doesn’t because they’re not (my point). I’d love to see him play a bit, but he’s nowhere near Frank. And that’s saying a lot.

I'm relaxed. This isn't getting me worked up at all.

I'm just trying to get you here. So you'd play him a little even though he's not close to Frank? Why would you play him some minutes if he's nowhere near his level? He played, what, two minutes on Saturday. Would you give HW more time than that?

 

[SWC75]

JB historically coaches to win the game at hand and uses only those players he trusts. Expecting him to change his philosophy 42 years in is an exercise in futility.

Historically, he's played everybody in the pre-conference season and narrowed his rotation after that. But two things have happened to change that. One if that basketball keeps growing and there are more and more good players and thus more and more good teams. Even Cornell and Colgate are not walk-overs any more. Secondly, the NCAA tournament committee has increasingly emphasized the pre-conference games, I think because that tells them how good a conference is. They don't want to just evaluate teams based on what they did in the conference. Thus we seek out better teams to play. i guess I'll add a third: We joined a conference based in the south. We want to play teams in the northeast because that's our normal recruiting area. You can't recruit New York, Philly or DC by playing Clemson. So we play our former Big East rivals not just for nostalgia but to maintain our footprint up here. That means more tough games and less experimentation.

 

[AZOrange]

I'm relaxed. This isn't getting me worked up at all.

I'm just trying to get you here. So you'd play him a little even though he's not close to Frank? Why would you play him some minutes if he's nowhere near his level? He played, what, two minutes on Saturday. Would you give HW more time than that?

It depends on the game. I wouldn’t prescribe minutes upfront. If he played like he did against GT that’d be it. If he played like he did when he made plays he’d get a few more minutes.

 

[OttoMets]

Historically, he's played everybody in the pre-conference season and narrowed his rotation after that. But two things have happened to change that. One if that basketball keeps growing and there are more and more good players and thus more and more good teams. Even Cornell and Colgate are not walk-overs any more. Secondly, the NCAA tournament committee has increasingly emphasized the pre-conference games, I think because that tells them how good a conference is. They don't want to just evaluate teams based on what they did in the conference. Thus we seek out better teams to play. i guess I'll add a third: We joined a conference based in the south. We want to play teams in the northeast because that's our normal recruiting area. You can't recruit New York, Philly or DC by playing Clemson. So we play our former Big East rivals not just for nostalgia but to maintain our footprint up here. That means more tough games and less experimentation.

Yeah, those are all factors (I think the parity thing is a little overrated; Cornell and Colgate still stink, we've played close games with them occasionally in the recent past and we did again this year). And there's also the natural progression of Boeheim getting more conservative as his career has matured. He knows Washington won't play in February. He doesn't really want to play a long bench anyway. So he's not going to goof around and play Washington now for show.

Also, he knows that Frank needs every developmental minute he can get. He's not the typical junior point guard.

Me, I'd like to see Washington a bit. Don't care for the reliance on 39-minute guys. The argument that they get rest is bogus - they question isn't whether the players are getting rest during TV timeouts, it's whether they're as or more rested than the competition.

But we're not gonna see experimentation, so I'm not going to worry about it.

 

[Townie72]

Yeah, those are all factors (I think the parity thing is a little overrated; Cornell and Colgate still stink, we've played close games with them occasionally in the recent past and we did again this year). And there's also the natural progression of Boeheim getting more conservative as his career has matured. He knows Washington won't play in February. He doesn't really want to play a long bench anyway. So he's not going to goof around and play Washington now for show.

Also, he knows that Frank needs every developmental minute he can get. He's not the typical junior point guard.

Me, I'd like to see Washington a bit. Don't care for the reliance on 39-minute guys. The argument that they get rest is bogus - they question isn't whether the players are getting rest during TV timeouts, it's whether they're as or more rested than the competition.

But we're not gonna see experimentation, so I'm not going to worry about it.

I agree with FH getting every minute he can get.

But you don't need to have the most rested team if those with less rest are able to compete at the required level.

The last time we had this discussion I did some reading on the subject of conditioning and the impact of it on performance. It's almost impossible to measure. It has a lot to do with recovery rate and that's what the additional time outs and other stoppages impact.

JB says they aren't tired. You say they are more tired than the competition and that makes a difference.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Yeah, those are all factors (I think the parity thing is a little overrated; Cornell and Colgate still stink, we've played close games with them occasionally in the recent past and we did again this year). And there's also the natural progression of Boeheim getting more conservative as his career has matured. He knows Washington won't play in February. He doesn't really want to play a long bench anyway. So he's not going to goof around and play Washington now for show.

Also, he knows that Frank needs every developmental minute he can get. He's not the typical junior point guard.

Me, I'd like to see Washington a bit. Don't care for the reliance on 39-minute guys. The argument that they get rest is bogus - they question isn't whether the players are getting rest during TV timeouts, it's whether they're as or more rested than the competition.

But we're not gonna see experimentation, so I'm not going to worry about it.

I'd like to see HW play a little more, just because as a fan I enjoy seeing the development on the court. But it does not look like it will happen.

As far as the resting. I don't see how having them play 37 vs 40 makes much difference to FH or Battle. And by having both FH and Battle play 40 now actually should prepare them better for 40 later in the season. They need to kind of pace themselves. Seems like they have the hang of it (I always thought Cooney had a problem with that and would run himself to near exhaustion). At the end of games and even in OT, FH and Battle are looking good.

 

[OttoMets]

I agree with FH getting every minute he can get.

But you don't need to have the most rested team if those with less rest are able to compete at the required level.

The last time we had this discussion I did some reading on the subject of conditioning and the impact of it on performance. It's almost impossible to measure. It has a lot to do with recovery rate and that's what the additional time outs and other stoppages impact.

JB says they aren't tired. You say they are more tired than the competition and that makes a difference.

There are a million factors at play and most of the time some of them (an extra 2 game minutes of rest) don't matter much. Tyus Battle could be drunk on the court for 40 minutes and we'd beat Colgate every year. On the other side, Kansas would probably beat Syracuse in December if someone figured out the optimal minutes-to-rest ratio for every Syracuse player.

Against a team that's slightly better or evenly matched, though, I'd like to see us go after every possible advantage. If their guards play 35, I don't want ours playing 40. (Remember how the Bilases and Gottfrieds and Cooleys used to gush about SU's advantage when Scoop or Waiters would come off the bench at 10:00 to play against the other team's "tired" kids...or against their less talented reserves?) Even with our thin roster, ideally we'd have Battle sneaking in a little rest right before a TV timeout. Boeheim was pretty religious about that in the '90s. Now he's simplified things.

 

[OttoMets]

I'd like to see HW play a little more, just because as a fan I enjoy seeing the development on the court. But it does not look like it will happen.

As far as the resting. I don't see how having them play 37 vs 40 makes much difference to FH or Battle. And by having both FH and Battle play 40 now actually should prepare them better for 40 later in the season. They need to kind of pace themselves. Seems like they have the hang of it (I always thought Cooney had a problem with that and would run himself to near exhaustion). At the end of games and even in OT, FH and Battle are looking good.

They are two of the guys on the team best suited for that kind of energy expenditure, for sure. And since we know how it's going to play out, no sense in my worrying about it. (Matt Moyer, on the other hand, was really dragging at the end of his extended first-half run on Saturday.)

 

[Cheriehoop]

There are a million factors at play and most of the time some of them (an extra 2 game minutes of rest) don't matter much. Tyus Battle could be drunk on the court for 40 minutes and we'd beat Colgate every year. On the other side, Kansas would probably beat Syracuse in December if someone figured out the optimal minutes-to-rest ratio for every Syracuse player.

Against a team that's slightly better or evenly matched, though, I'd like to see us go after every possible advantage. If their guards play 35, I don't want ours playing 40. (Remember how the Bilases and Gottfrieds and Cooleys used to gush about SU's advantage when Scoop or Waiters would come off the bench at 10:00 to play against the other team's "tired" kids...or against their less talented reserves?) Even with our thin roster, ideally we'd have Battle sneaking in a little rest right before a TV timeout. Boeheim was pretty religious about that in the '90s. Now he's simplified things.

I don’t think the depth the last few years has equaled the quality depth when JB has utilized supersubs. Maybe next year we will see a return. Like you noted, if JB thought each player was equally effective even if in different ways, he would play both like he did with a Scoop, Dion, Triche, Scoop, Joseph etc . To date it appears that JB doesn’t believe there’s an equal less a better trade off by subbing except at the forward (Moyer, Dolenzaj) and center spots (Chukwu, Sidibe).

 

[OttoMets]

I don’t think the depth the last few years has equaled the quality depth when JB has utilized supersubs. Maybe next year we will see a return. Like you noted, if JB thought each player was equally effective even if in different ways, he would play both like he did with a Scoop, Dion, Triche, Scoop, Joseph etc . To date it appears that JB doesn’t believe there’s an equal less a better trade off by subbing except at the forward (Moyer, Dolenzaj) and center spots (Chukwu, Sidibe).

That is, even 70% of Battle or Howard is better than 100% of Washington. That seems fair, especially at this stage of development.

 

[Bayside44]

All you say is true.

But ... we have lost the previous years to a team that was not very good. I guess against us it's their NCAA Tournament game and they are super-motivated. This has been damaging to our own Tournament selection chances.

And not playing them hurts them more than it hurts us and weakens them as a factor in the Northeast - Mid-Atlantic for recruiting.

I'm perfectly willing to see them continue along the downward path into irrelevance. Why throw them a life vest.

I'm not sure if Saturday was a life vest or anchor. I mean their fan situation was dreadful, and this game in particular is a great way for the mid-Atlantic fans, donors, trustees, etc to get together. Really cannot do that at a UVa hoop game since they have, you know, actual fans.

I was sort of against these games, our record against the old Big East hasn't been great since leaving the conference. But nails in the UConn coffin in particular and doing what we did to the Hoyas on Saturday was kinda fun.

 

[Townie72]

I'm not sure if Saturday was a life vest or anchor. I mean their fan situation was dreadful, and this game in particular is a great way for the mid-Atlantic fans, donors, trustees, etc to get together. Really cannot do that at a UVa hoop game since they have, you know, actual fans.

I was sort of against these games, our record against the old Big East hasn't been great since leaving the conference. But nails in the UConn coffin in particular and doing what we did to the Hoyas on Saturday was kinda fun.

I agree this is a good game for local SU fans. But there are local SU fans in Philly and NYC and Boston and even places like Chicago.

Georgetown is in a bind on fan support. Many of their older alumni don't support the BB program. They didn't like Thompson or the Thompson era team vibes. The younger alumni are from somewhere else and went back there after graduation. Even the once large GU base in the AA community seems to have waned.

And the team has never captured the interest of the local fans. Even with the support of the broadcast media and the Washington Post, who would commit hari-kari before saying anything negative about the GU program.

But as JB seemed to reflect, the Pearl and Andre Hawkins vs. Ewing and Graham era isn't ever coming back. This game versus those old Big East game was like "a fire cracker vs. a bomb".

When a died-in-the-wool, decades-long Hoya hater like me starts viewing this as just another game you know things have changed.

When I first moved to DC in the early 1980's, some of my neighbors, who were GU grads and casual fans, suggested we all go together as a group to watch the GU v. SU game. "Oh, sure, " said, knowing that this was never going to happen.

I had a mental picture of their reaction to me yelling at JT Jr, calling him a C.S.-er.

It wouldn't have been pretty.

 

[Bayside44]

I agree this is a good game for local SU fans. But there are local SU fans in Philly and NYC and Boston and even places like Chicago.

Georgetown is in a bind on fan support. Many of their older alumni don't support the BB program. They didn't like Thompson or the Thompson era team vibes. The younger alumni are from somewhere else and went back there after graduation. Even the once large GU base in the AA community seems to have waned.

And the team has never captured the interest of the local fans. Even with the support of the broadcast media and the Washington Post, who would commit hari-kari before saying anything negative about the GU program.

But as JB seemed to reflect, the Pearl and Andre Hawkins vs. Ewing and Graham era isn't ever coming back. This game versus those old Big East game was like "a fire cracker vs. a bomb".

When a died-in-the-wool, decades-long Hoya hater like me starts viewing this as just another game you know things have changed.

When I first moved to DC in the early 1980's, some of my neighbors, who were GU grads and casual fans, suggested we all go together as a group to watch the GU v. SU game. "Oh, sure, " said, knowing that this was never going to happen.

I had a mental picture of their reaction to me yelling at JT Jr, calling him a C.S.-er.

It wouldn't have been pretty.

Oh yeah, this game about even about 7, 8 years ago was nasty with the fans. There was very little of that this go around.

NYC fans got the UConn game. And Boston has an ACC school.

I see more Gonzaga (hs) stickers in Alexandria than Georgetown.