The Last Dance

[Alsacs]

Pippen's stats fell off a cliff after he left, from a dollars and cents (sense?) point of view they really got over on that guy and never paid for past success.

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The Lakers almost traded for Pippen after the 1999 season.

If the Bulls gave Pippen 5 years 80 million after the lockout ended and then played one more half year with the Bulls in 1999 the team could have traded Pippen easily he still had value.

Reinsdorf made it sound like the team couldnt afford to pay players for past performance and I get that for a guy like Dennis Rodman but MJ and Pippen would have paid for themselves.

If the Bulls play out the 1999 season and then Phil goes to LA in 2000 and the Lakers offer Eddie Jones and Eldin Campbell for Pippen that deal gets done.

The Lakers traded Campbell and Jones to the Hornets for Glen Rice and basically made the Hornets more competitive as a result right away. It was one of Jerry West worst deals.

The Rockets gave Pippen away for a pupu platter of role players that screwed Houston up.

Pippen with Kobe and Shaq win the same titles and Pippen has a chance for potentially 10 rings.
6 with the Bulls, who knows if the 1999 Bulls in 50 games do and then 3 with the Lakers.

 

[OrangeDW]

The Lakers almost traded for Pippen after the 1999 season.

If the Bulls gave Pippen 5 years 80 million after the lockout ended and then played one more half year with the Bulls in 1999 the team could have traded Pippen easily he still had value.

Reinsdorf made it sound like the team couldnt afford to pay players for past performance and I get that for a guy like Dennis Rodman but MJ and Pippen would have paid for themselves.

If the Bulls play out the 1999 season and then Phil goes to LA in 2000 and the Lakers offer Eddie Jones and Eldin Campbell for Pippen that deal gets done.

The Lakers traded Campbell and Jones to the Hornets for Glen Rice and basically made the Hornets more competitive as a result right away. It was one of Jerry West worst deals.

Pippen with Kobe and Shaq win the same titles and Pippen has a chance for potentially 10 rings.
6 with the Bulls, who knows if the 1999 Bulls in 50 games do and then 3 with the Lakers.

I agree on the Rice trade. However he was a valuable 3rd scorer and outside shooter for that 2000 title. So on that level, it was worth it. Though Eddie obviously had a lot more in the tank going forward and was a better overall player, and Elden was also a solid player. Charlotte made out well there, but the Lakers can’t complain - a title is a title and Rice helped them get over the hump.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Yup. He was still a good and versatile player in Houston and Portland, but he didn’t have the same explosiveness anymore. Even that last season in Chicago, he was physically struggling - he had the foot surgery and the bad back. His body got old quickly.

He had played 178 playoff games by the time he left Chicago. He and Jordan didn't exactly get much rest. They both averaged 38-40 mpg in the period before load management and regularly were in the top 10 in mpg. Jordan alone led the league in minutes 3 times and never averaged under 40mpg in any playoff run. It's really amazing that Jordan never had a serious injury outside of his second year.

 

[Knicks411]

He had played 178 playoff games by the time he left Chicago. He and Jordan didn't exactly get much rest. They both averaged 38-40 mpg in the period before load management and regularly were in the top 10 in mpg. Jordan alone led the league in minutes 3 times and never averaged under 40mpg in any playoff run. It's really amazing that Jordan never had a serious injury outside of his second year.

I have to wonder how much the time he played baseball helped him there. Just not taking the basketball wear and tear for 18 months.

I remember a few years ago looking at the Jordan MPG numbers and being amazed, in the 98 season, he turned 35 in Feb, and he played in every game, 38.8 MPG. I remember thinking (and saying here) you'd never see anything like that now, it's crazy, etc. Then you had Lebron, at 33, playing every game in 2018 and leading the league in MPG.

I guess one caveat worth mentioning; the game was a lot slower in 98 than it is now. So probably a little easier to rest while still carrying a huge workload.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I have to wonder how much the time he played baseball helped him there. Just not taking the basketball wear and tear for 18 months.

I remember a few years ago looking at the Jordan MPG numbers and being amazed, in the 98 season, he turned 35 in Feb, and he played in every game, 38.8 MPG. I remember thinking (and saying here) you'd never see anything like that now, it's crazy, etc. Then you had Lebron, at 33, playing every game in 2018 and leading the league in MPG.

I guess one caveat worth mentioning; the game was a lot slower in 98 than it is now. So probably a little easier to rest while still carrying a huge workload.

I'm not sure how much rest that equals when he finished first or second in usage 11 out of 14 years. Nothing against Lebron(he's great even though I am a hater) and maybe it is recency bias, but I don't get the sense he goes all out during the regular season in his 30's much like Jordan did.

 

[ForCuseSake]

Krause was a good GM who is like the guy who needs to be validated even though he is doing a great job.

Krause drafted Pippen, Grant, found Phil Jackson and did a good job finding talent.

His problem was the Napoleon complex. Michael Jordan was why the organization won if he understood that Jordan wouldn’t have bullied him that hard.

Krause did what Reinsdorf wanted done with the ending. Krause put his foot in the mouth saying this was Jackson’s last season before the season. If he stays quiet he doesn’t get killed publicly but saying the team could go 82-0 and he wasn’t coming back.

That kills Krause in the court of public opinion.
Phil clearly wanted out and was thinking too two steps seeing the Lakers with Shaq were a possibility. That was before Kobe was Kobe.
Phil came off really good in this documentary but that stuff with the marriage was so true.

Remember Krause was the moron who invited the entire coaching staff sans Phil Jackson to his daughter’s wedding and Bill Cartwright’s wife asking Phil’s wife what she was wearing and her finding out she wasn’t invited. Krause made himself the villain.

Reinsdorf admited the team fell apart because he didn’t want to pay the aging players more than their value. When if Reinsdorf was smart with the lockout could have paid the guys in a prorated 50 game season and given Pippen his money 5yrs-80 million and then traded Pippen after the year if he felt he wasn’t worth it and gotten him moved.

Instead Reinsdorf went cheap and the team went 5 years as pure garbage.

Phil Jackson being a phony kinda got ignored. Which I Understand as he was just the coach in Chicago. When he went to LA he became more outspoken and Hollywood publicly. In Chicago he wasn’t discussed that much.

I agree with your take on Krause and think his obstinance was a key driver to their dynasty.

The docuseries made it clear that Jordan’s hatred of Krause fueled his biggest fires. The Olympics destruction of Kukoc being the obvious example.

MJ often created his own axes to grind as motivation but I wonder if that Bulls dynasty reaches the same height with a less combative GM.

Would MJ have been able to dictate roster moves (assuming Reinsdorf agreed) with a softer GM?

It was pretty obvious Jordan lacked respect for people who wilted under his rage. I think Krause’s stubbornness to that rage helped push MJ as much as MJ’s abrasive behavior pushed his teammates.

 

[Bayside44]

The Lakers almost traded for Pippen after the 1999 season.

If the Bulls gave Pippen 5 years 80 million after the lockout ended and then played one more half year with the Bulls in 1999 the team could have traded Pippen easily he still had value.

Reinsdorf made it sound like the team couldnt afford to pay players for past performance and I get that for a guy like Dennis Rodman but MJ and Pippen would have paid for themselves.

If the Bulls play out the 1999 season and then Phil goes to LA in 2000 and the Lakers offer Eddie Jones and Eldin Campbell for Pippen that deal gets done.

The Lakers traded Campbell and Jones to the Hornets for Glen Rice and basically made the Hornets more competitive as a result right away. It was one of Jerry West worst deals.

The Rockets gave Pippen away for a pupu platter of role players that screwed Houston up.

Pippen with Kobe and Shaq win the same titles and Pippen has a chance for potentially 10 rings.
6 with the Bulls, who knows if the 1999 Bulls in 50 games do and then 3 with the Lakers.

There's a little too much there there for me to digest, I don't care all that much

Just that I agree with the logic of not overpaying a guy on the back side of his career.

 

[Knicks411]

I'm not sure how much rest that equals when he finished first or second in usage 11 out of 14 years. Nothing against Lebron(he's great even though I am a hater) and maybe it is recency bias, but I don't get the sense he goes all out during the regular season in his 30's much like Jordan did.

I agree in general. (especially some of those years in Cleveland at the end, seemed to take a lot of plays off on defense)

Just saying the game is different now, back then there were 1) fewer possessions (in 98 the average team had 90 possessions per game, this year is 100%; 11% more) and 2) the game in 1998 was a lot more iso heavy. So easier to take a possession off on defense if your guy isn't the one with the ball.

Certainly my initial instinct says Jordan definitely went all out more in your random regular season game in March with nothing really to play for than Lebron.

Something I just looked up, Lebron has now played 61,603 minutes combining regular season and playoffs. Jordan finished with 48,485. It's hard for me to conceive of Lebron as an older player, for whatever reason, but he's now played 27% more minutes than Jordan has. He's third all time in mintues (combining playoffs and regular season) and he's about 35 games from passing Karl Malone.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I agree in general. (especially some of those years in Cleveland at the end, seemed to take a lot of plays off on defense)

Just saying the game is different now, back then there were 1) fewer possessions (in 98 the average team had 90 possessions per game, this year is 100%; 11% more) and 2) the game in 1998 was a lot more iso heavy. So easier to take a possession off on defense if your guy isn't the one with the ball.

Certainly my initial instinct says Jordan definitely went all out more in your random regular season game in March with nothing really to play for than Lebron.

Something I just looked up, Lebron has now played 61,603 minutes combining regular season and playoffs. Jordan finished with 48,485. It's hard for me to conceive of Lebron as an older player, for whatever reason, but he's now played 27% more minutes than Jordan has. He's third all time in mintues (combining playoffs and regular season) and he's about 35 games from passing Karl Malone.

It's hard for you to think of Lebron as an older player because he's the same age as us.

 

[Knicks411]

It's hard for you to think of Lebron as an older player because he's the same age as us.

So so true

A guy like Jordan, I really only remember him as an older player, with much of his legend, for lack of a better term, already built in and achieved. I've watched Lebron since day one and it's hard for me to realize how much he's played, I guess. Like I still think he is a guy building his legacy or whatever, and while he is to an extent, he's played so much in reality

 

[Newhouser]

I think Phil was pretty much great his entire coaching career. He may not have been a fantastic X and O coach, but the guy was unbelievably successful and he seemed to be great at managing egos and getting buy in

He and Pat Riley never put themselves in a position to prove they could coach. They always had some of the most talented teams at their disposal. Phil's hippie zen schtick and Riley's slick Rick hides a tough dude routine don't play with different rosters. Riley tops Phil because he won with different styles and in the front office building teams. Phil just built an image.

 

[Cusefan0307]

He and Pat Riley never put themselves in a position to prove they could coach. They always had some of the most talented teams at their disposal. Phil's hippie zen schtick and Riley's slick Rick hides a tough dude routine don't play with different rosters. Riley tops Phil because he won with different styles and in the front office building teams. Phil just built an image.

I think you're vastly underrating Riley as a coach. Some of those Knick and Heat teams had little talent outside of Ewing/Mourning and he regularly won 50 plus games playing "force" basketball. He also is twice the executive Phil is and didn't nearly cause as much drama with his star players.

 

[Knicks411]

He and Pat Riley never put themselves in a position to prove they could coach. They always had some of the most talented teams at their disposal. Phil's hippie zen schtick and Riley's slick Rick hides a tough dude routine don't play with different rosters. Riley tops Phil because he won with different styles and in the front office building teams. Phil just built an image.

The Bulls the year after Jordan left did pretty well, no?

That said, I think Phil was great at coaching a very specific team. Outsized egos, star players, etc. Maybe he wouldn't have done as well as someone else with a lesser talented team, but I also think he would get more out of a very talented team than just about anyone.

We (myself included) are probably too quick to label coaches (and players as well) good or bad, when the reality, especially for coaches I think, is some guys are better suited to different situations

 

[Alsacs]

The Bulls the year after Jordan left did pretty well, no?

That said, I think Phil was great at coaching a very specific team. Outsized egos, star players, etc. Maybe he wouldn't have done as well as someone else with a lesser talented team, but I also think he would get more out of a very talented team than just about anyone.

We (myself included) are probably too quick to label coaches (and players as well) good or bad, when the reality, especially for coaches I think, is some guys are better suited to different situations

Coaches get judged imo how they do with teams that aren’t the most talented or if they have talent how they don’t let egos blow teams up.
I think Brad Stevens is a little overrated. He gets put higher than I think he is. He is okay but not one of the best coaches in the league like he gets ranked.

 

[MSOrange]

Scottie Pippen 'beyond livid' at Michael Jordan for portrayal in 'The Last Dance,' report says

Pippen joins other former Bulls who are unsatisfied with their portrayal in the documentary

www.cbssports.com

 

[Briancuse]

Scottie Pippen 'beyond livid' at Michael Jordan for portrayal in 'The Last Dance,' report says

Pippen joins other former Bulls who are unsatisfied with their portrayal in the documentary

www.cbssports.com

I mean Scottie kind of brought it on himself. He was told not to sign that contract and then constantly whined about being underpaid. He was the one who held off having surgery because he didn't want to ruin his summer. I can't say I feel that bad for him.

 

[Knicks411]

Coaches get judged imo how they do with teams that aren’t the most talented or if they have talent how they don’t let egos blow teams up.
I think Brad Stevens is a little overrated. He gets put higher than I think he is. He is okay but not one of the best coaches in the league like he gets ranked.

Stevens could also be a guy who is really good at getting a lot out of a roster without a lot of stars but maybe not as good as other guys with top level guys. (Tatum looks like he's going to be a top level star)

 

[Newhouser]

I mean Scottie kind of brought it on himself. He was told not to sign that contract and then constantly whined about being underpaid. He was the one who held off having surgery because he didn't want to ruin his summer. I can't say I feel that bad for him.

I agree. Pippen got love for his game, but unless your Jordan, the documentary really couldn't skip over your questionable decisions and Pip had a ton. He also said he had no regrets,so live with it.

 

[Alsacs]

Scottie Pippen was Batman to Michael’s Superman.

The only mistake Michael made in the documentary was when he mocked Pippen’s migraines before 1990 game 7 against Detroit.
Pippen wasn’t faking an injury. MJ was apoplectic when mocking Pippen for not being able to play that game.

That was the only time Scottie wasn’t treated right. He was hurt and migraines aren’t like the back injury he played thru in 1998.

Pippen didn’t get enough credit for how he played thru back pain in game 6 1998. I am a fairly healthy guy and last June I strained a back muscle and for a week I couldn’t stand straight up and walking was immense pain. That injury had to be hell and Pippen played thru it.

Jordan shouldn’t have said Pippen was selfish for getting the surgery right before the season. The Bulls weren’t giving him a new contract and the guy had played into June the 2 previous seasons.
Screw rehabing in the offseason. If the Bulls took care of him I bet he doesn’t do that. Plus the Bulls shopped Pippen before the 1997 draft.

I found out the Celtics offered the 3rd and 6th picks in the 1997 draft for Pippen and Jordan got Reinsdorf to kill the deal.

Pippen didn’t owe them anything.

Jordan should have treated Pippen better with the Pistons stuff and surgery opinion:

The stuff in 1994 with the Knicks was fair game.

 

[samspann1]

Chief

 

[samspann1]

Congrats to MJ, on his balls finally dropping.


One of the comments was pretty funny, though: "Racists buy sneakers too"

 

[two3zone]

I woke up with my back out of wack, going to watch this entire thing again since I can’t do much else.