The latest all encompassing recruiting thread

[orangefog]

You really think the SU coaches determine value in a player based on other P5 offers they have?

Wait a minute. Are you suggesting that our coaches evaluate these high school players and offer based on their own evaluations? They then accept commitments based off of those evaluations? Am I also to believe that I should be happy about these commitments considering that they are relatively early in the process and that suggests the staff is really high on these recruits? Wow, that is quite a stretch. Next thing you’ll be telling me COVID-19 wasn’t created by Bill Gates.

 

[RF2044]

It really isn't that hard, here are the rules in the football recruiting forum.

Don't look at ratings because they are created by shills. Don't look at offers because they're many circumstances we are unaware of. You can use ratings and offers when it helps the team look good.

Or here's a thought [gasp!!!]: maybe don't formulate your entire opinion based upon one thing, to the exclusionary expense of all other data points.

If you're Ohio State or Alabama, and you are recruiting the highest rated players -- then looking at stars alone might be fine for comparing gradations of excellence.

But these recruiting services are imprecise, they don't do a thorough job analyzing the thousands of players out there beyond a small core group, and some of the evaluators [clowns like Dohn] don't even bother to conceal their bias, and inflate [or decrease] both stars / ratings to artificially manipulate things in favor of the team they prefer.

Stars, ratings, and offer lists are ALL important data elements to look at -- especially for a team in our station of CFB. But taken alone, none are the end all be all in and of themselves. And there are additional factors outside of those three things that also provide insight / context, too.


The above not directed at you, cityofcuse -- just piggybacking off of your post.

 

[money3189]

It really isn't that hard, here are the rules in the football recruiting forum.

Don't look at ratings because they are created by shills. Don't look at offers because they're many circumstances we are unaware of. You can use ratings and offers when it helps the team look good.

lol facts brother and all of it wont matter once they hit campus. Potential and fit can only carry you so far.

 

[kcsu]

NDSU seems to do just fine without any highly ranked kids. Just ask Minnesota, and a few other power 5 schools.

 

[General Joe]

Umm...
We have 5 verbal commits for 2021 with no other P5 offers.

SMH. Some people on here think those guys are GREAT just because we beat out some D2(showing my age)teams for them. This staff has signed 4-7 of these players each cycle. 4 years in and that is 17-28 players on the roster that not even 1 other P5 team considered. Could this have contributed to the lack of quality all around P5 depth on our roster in your opinion?

 

[money3189]

Or here's a thought [gasp!!!]: maybe don't formulate your entire opinion based upon one thing, to the exclusionary expense of all other data points.

If you're Ohio State or Alabama, and you are recruiting the highest rated players -- then looking at stars alone might be fine for comparing gradations of excellence.

But these recruiting services are imprecise, they don't do a thorough job analyzing the thousands of players out there beyond a small core group, and some of the evaluators [clowns like Dohn] don't even bother to conceal their bias, and inflate [or decrease] both stars / ratings to artificially manipulate things in favor of the team they prefer.

Stars, ratings, and offer lists are ALL important data elements to look at -- especially for a team in our station of CFB. But taken alone, none are the end all be all in and of themselves. And there are additional factors outside of those three things that also provide insight / context, too.


The above not directed at you, cityofcuse -- just piggybacking off of your post.

yup all facts. One example of how ratings can excite fans and tend to make us put too much value on players. Enrique Cruz, SU was his first offer and no one seemed excited about him early on. There was a 3 month period where no one posted on his thread. One day an analyst decided he liked what he saw in his film and gave him a 4 star based on upside. He gets a couple more p5 offers and now he's a "cant miss recruit". If the staff took his commitment in April and he didnt get a rating bump people wouldnt be as excited about him. I like Cruz's length and upside but he's very raw. His film is not better than Mags, Hoeh or Ellis. His film is filled with blind side blocks against smaller OLB's. Recruiting sites can influence us all. I am a victim of it myself.

 

[money3189]

SMH. Some people on here think those guys are GREAT just because we beat out some D2(showing my age)teams for them. This staff has signed 4-7 of these players each cycle. 4 years in and that is 17-28 players on the roster that not even 1 other P5 team considered. Could this have contributed to the lack of quality all around P5 depth on our roster in your opinion?

Still waiting for a list of P5 teams that have successful recruiting despite losing every year. I can start believing its possible if you can show me lots of evidence of it. Fair enough?

 

[General Joe]

Still waiting for a list of P5 teams that have successful recruiting despite losing every year. I can start believing its possible if you can show me lots of evidence of it. Fair enough?

Money seriously not going to argue with you this morning.

But I will entertain your question. So that I can answer in a way that makes sense to you please clarify the following.

1. What would constitute a "successful recruiting despite losing every year"?
2. What constitutes losing every year? Do we fit in that category when you repeatedly throw out the 2018 season to make points that our recruiting isnt bad.
3. In your opinion does Syracuse lose every year?
4. Do you think other schools that recruit "more successfully" just have better recruits or also recruiters?
5. Do you think any P5 team wants 18-25% of each recruiting class not having multiple offers from its P5 competitors.
6. Can you provide a a example of "successful recruiting, and unsuccessful recruiting so we have a competitive range to compare against?

 

[General Joe]

NDSU seems to do just fine without any highly ranked kids. Just ask Minnesota, and a few other power 5 schools.

I beg your pardon. If your talking about the North Dakota State Bison of the FCS in football they havent played Minnesota in atleast 6 years (without looking) I only know this because I monitor them weekly as they have 2 kids from my program who played there last 5 years. And they have some players that are "highly ranked" comparatively based on division and competition level they play against.

Perhaps you were thinking of Iowa who they defeated a couple years back????

 

[PhatOrange]

The 5 kids in our class without ‘reported’ P5 offers are:

WR Long
LB Roon
TE McDonald
OL Kauhi
OL Hoeh

everyone else has P5 offer(s).

 

[money3189]

Money seriously not going to argue with you this morning.

But I will entertain your question. So that I can answer in a way that makes sense to you please clarify the following.

1. What would constitute a "successful recruiting despite losing every year"?
2. What constitutes losing every year? Do we fit in that category when you repeatedly throw out the 2018 season to make points when it suits you.
3. In your opinion does Syracuse lose every year?
4. Do you think other schools that recruit "more successfully" just have better recruits or also recruiters?
5. Do you think any P5 team wants 18-25% of each recruiting class not having multiple offers from its P5 competitors.
6. Can you provide a a example of "successful recruiting, and unsuccessful recruiting so we have a competitive range to compare against?

Won’t answer the questions? Ok. I’ll answer yours then.

1) Losing P5 team? I know we are one of the best in recruiting comparable to other struggling P5's. If we can get in the top 40 that would be good. While we work on getting to top 25 classes we need to get guys that fit your system and culture, that in turn can help you develop and build an atmosphere that allows your players to consistently out play opponents. Any coach in America will tell you that
.
2) 11 losing seasons in 15 years. The exchanges I have with you has always talked about winning consistently. I’ve actually referenced the 2018 season in some of exchanges with you. Noting that we won despite not having a roster full of 4/5 star players

3) What kind of question is that? Records show that. That’s not a opinion.

4) In some cases they may have better recruiters than us but we can’t assume all of them do. Those recruiters might have a easier product to sell ( wins, facilities, location) all those things factor in as we all know.

5) No. In addition, I still think you struggle understanding the difference of wanting something and actually achieving it. Two different things. Can you please stop acting like everyone don’t want the best players? It’s getting stupid now.

6) Getting Duce, Malik Matthew, Fuentes Trill White Nunn Jones recent examples of recruiting wins. losing out on guys like Van Dyke Abanikanda Mohan, Jah Harris, Seven Mcgee are some examples of recruiting losses. You have to understand that we view things from two different lenses. Some of those guys were never coming to SU. So you may look at it as bad recruiting where I actually know the mindset and reasons why they won’t consider SU.

Do you understand that? Dont give me a long post that has nothing to do with my question. Answer yes or no and explain why

 

[crales44]

The 5 kids in our class without ‘reported’ P5 offers are: everyone else has P5 offer(s).

WR Long
LB Roon
TE McDonald
OL Kauhi
OL Hoeh

everyone else has P5 offer(s).

Roon had an Arizona State offer, didn't he?

Honored to receive an offer from @ASUFootball want to say today thank you to @CoachRodASU https://t.co/Ef6evM9enG

 

[orange79]

Roon had an Arizona State offer, didn't he?

Honored to receive an offer from @ASUFootball want to say today thank you to @CoachRodASU https://t.co/Ef6evM9enG

Yep. Army and AF too. And a few MAC schools.

 

[money3189]

The 5 kids in our class without ‘reported’ P5 offers are: everyone else has P5 offer(s).

WR Long
LB Roon
TE McDonald
OL Kauhi
OL Hoeh

everyone else has P5 offer(s).

but the guys that just focus on P5 offers will complain about that 23% of the class.

 

[BANYC]

Do they use the remaining "schollies" to fill the following positional needs?

1 - MLB
2 - DBs (Safety and CB)
1 - WR
1 - Fast RB
1 - Center
1 - Athlete

 

[money3189]

Do they use the remaining "schollies" to fill the following positional needs?

1 - MLB
2 - DBs (Safety and CB)
1 - WR
1 - Fast RB
1 - Center
1 - Athlete

Those are good guesses. I would add OT. Not sure if they are going after another RB.

 

[721Comstock]

Those are good guesses. I would add OT. Not sure if they are going after another RB.

I’m thinking it’s more like 1-2 OL, 1-2 WR, 1 LB, 1-2 DB, done.

 

[RF2044]

I’m thinking it’s more like 1-2 OL, 1-2 WR, 1 LB, 1-2 DB, done.

1-2 more OL, but with three specific OL that they are targeting.

Agree about the DBs -- still work to be done there. I'd also expect another WR. And they might keep a few open for grad transfers, other transfers, etc.

 

[PhatOrange]

Roon had an Arizona State offer, didn't he?

Honored to receive an offer from @ASUFootball want to say today thank you to @CoachRodASU https://t.co/Ef6evM9enG

Yes you’re right so scratch him. 4 kids. That’s not bad even in a normal year.

 

[007]

[I meant to post this in this thread, rather than in the Fuentes thread. Sorry for the duplication]

Some in this thread underestimate the significant impact of negative recruiting.
It is incredibly easy for other programs to point out our history of losing over the last 20 seasons. Beginning with the 2000 season, we have had:

1. 6 winning seasons
2. 6 bowl appearances
3. And most mind numbing of all - 10 seasons of 4 or fewer wins

The sobering reality is that for longer than the current recruits have been alive, Syracuse has been at or near the bottom of the pile (with a few exceptions) of all Power 5 programs relative to winning.

This is the reality of what Dino and staff are facing on the recruiting trail. And, it is the reality that matters most, IMO, for any debate of why don't we currently have Top 30 classes.

IF we followed up the 10-3 2018 season with an 8-4ish 2019 season, my guess is that this year's recruiting class would look significantly better relative to rating services and star rankings.

 

[CuseLegacy]

[I meant to post this in this thread, rather than in the Fuentes thread. Sorry for the duplication]

Some in this thread underestimate the significant impact of negative recruiting.
It is incredibly easy for other programs to point out our history of losing over the last 20 seasons. Beginning with the 2000 season, we have had:

1. 6 winning seasons
2. 6 bowl appearances
3. And most mind numbing of all - 10 seasons of 4 or fewer wins

The sobering reality is that for longer than the current recruits have been alive, Syracuse has been at or near the bottom of the pile (with a few exceptions) of all Power 5 programs relative to winning.

This is the reality of what Dino and staff are facing on the recruiting trail. And, it is the reality that matters most, IMO, for any debate of why don't we currently have Top 30 classes.

IF we followed up the 10-3 2018 season with an 8-4ish 2019 season, my guess is that this year's recruiting class would look significantly better relative to rating services and star rankings.

Just call for housekeeping. Fixed.

 

[money3189]

[I meant to post this in this thread, rather than in the Fuentes thread. Sorry for the duplication]

Some in this thread underestimate the significant impact of negative recruiting.
It is incredibly easy for other programs to point out our history of losing over the last 20 seasons. Beginning with the 2000 season, we have had:

1. 6 winning seasons
2. 6 bowl appearances
3. And most mind numbing of all - 10 seasons of 4 or fewer wins

The sobering reality is that for longer than the current recruits have been alive, Syracuse has been at or near the bottom of the pile (with a few exceptions) of all Power 5 programs relative to winning.

This is the reality of what Dino and staff are facing on the recruiting trail. And, it is the reality that matters most, IMO, for any debate of why don't we currently have Top 30 classes.

IF we followed up the 10-3 2018 season with an 8-4ish 2019 season, my guess is that this year's recruiting class would look significantly better relative to rating services and star rankings.

You are right on. Its just hard for people to see this. Its still hard for me. The mindset of a 17 year old kid is different from a lifelong Cuse fan.

 

[TheCusian]

I get that, your uninformed. Here's a update. HCDB realized that MAC approach to recruiting in the ACC will get us where we are. Winning 2 or 3 of 9 vs P5 conferences. So he has adapted to the strategy I outlined here of targeting more recruits that the other ACC and P5 teams are targeting. By default we will land some of them.

The default is that Syracuse IS a great school with a good football program, good academics and a great little (we will say intimate) campus and a family atmosphere. Thats what these higher end recruits like Cruz, Rooks and Duce love and is selling them. THATS what the coaches should continue to focus on selling. Like all sales recruiting is as easy or hard as you make it.

If your strolling around on South Beach saying come play 1300 miles away in the cold where your family and friends will never be able to watch you in person, you disqualify yourself from a ton of recruits so you have to scramble and fill a class with anybody that will come. The better strategy is what your seeing now and what you and I argued about a few months back. Targeting higher end regional recruits like Duce and Rooks. We tried it your way for 4 years and look where it got us. Now they are going more in the direction that I favor. Even you say better recruits in the same system should equal better results. So lets get those better recruits

uniformed? Lol

 

[TheCusian]

Explain then how do we improve? Will we ever improve? How do win more games? We can't because we'll never match all other teams. Do we accept our losing? Teams don't get better or worse. I realize 25 yrs ago but how were we a top 10 team. Almost all the things you mention now were still true then.

If it were easy more teams would do it? Sustained success is the hardest thing in sports. We had a 10 win season and had Clemson on the ropes two years ago. But it’s damn hard to keep that going in CFB for roughly 90% of the teams.

 

[AngryOtto]

I’m hoping in the 22 class we are able to get some more players out of the dvm area. We have started to make some inroads into Virginia. We got a couple really good players out of Maryland last cycle but nothing this year. We have not made any headway in DC. Lot of talent there that I’m hoping in the future will consider coming to su.