The minimum standard

[SWC75]

It bothers me that Wildhack kept talking about the importance of getting "the 13th game", (a bowl game in the current system), yet applied a 7-5 standard to Dino when we've achieved that standard 7 times in this century. What we need is a run of bowl seasons that would make us more attractive to recruits than we are now and would, with the improvements in facilities and hopefully a competitive NIL situation would put us on a plane higher than our current and provide a base for trying to elevate us to the next level above that. I doubt we are going to get a coach who does that overnight. We've had five different coaches win 40% of their games over the last 22 seasons. It obviously isn't easy. We are in an unglamorous, (if under-rated) location in a state that doesn't produce much FBS talent competing against a lot of southern schools that are in prime recruiting areas. We're also a mid-size private school rather than a large state school. Those things matter.

Jack Crouthamel used to extend his football coaches contract after every winning season so he wouldn't have to make a decision on a coach after a winning year. They played 11 games in those days with only a dozen or so bowls so a 6-6 bowl season would have bene the equivalent of Jakes winning year. We still have a chance to do that this year. I think Jake's minimum level of achievement should have been 6-6 and a bowl. That ship has sailed but I'll put myself on record as saying the departing was premature.

Now, like everybody else, I'm just curious as to what happens next - and what the minimum standard will be.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Back in the day they played 11 games because there was no FCS game. We are 4-6 this year vs FBS so it is a losing FBS season. Then going back we were 6-6, 4-7, 1-10, 4-7, 9-3, 3-8, 3-8.

Also you don't just go off of one year and ignore the entire body of work. You can't say 6-6 is the minimum then have a HC go 4-7 and fire him when the prior 3 years he went 7-5 every year. That would be silly. As would keeping a guy who went 6-5 this year but went 4-7 the prior 3 years.

 

[SmilinBob]

To me losing a bowl game and going 6-7 or 7-6 makes a difference.

 

[SWC75]

Back in the day they played 11 games because there was no FCS game. We are 4-6 this year vs FBS so it is a losing FBS season. Then going back we were 6-6, 4-7, 1-10, 4-7, 9-3, 3-8, 3-8.

Also you don't just go off of one year and ignore the entire body of work. You can't say 6-6 is the minimum then have a HC go 4-7 and fire him when the prior 3 years he went 7-5 every year. That would be silly. As would keeping a guy who went 6-5 this year but went 4-7 the prior 3 years.

If you are applying a minimum standard for a record this year, you are going by this year.

 

[David332]

I think that was his point, that we need to get bowl games every year and build from that. If what Wildhack was saying is that we have to be bowling every season and any season that we do not is unacceptable, I think that’s the perfect amount of expectation.

 

[Louie and Bouie]

I took the comment as the minimum standard for this year (Year 8) with this schedule was 7-5.

I didn't feel it applied to every year thereafter.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If you are applying a minimum standard for a record this year, you are going by this year.

That is the point there shouldn't be a hardline minimum. You can have a goal, but in no way do you fire or retain a HC just based off of one year.

 

[Chip]

I took the comment as the minimum standard for this year (Year 8) with this schedule was 7-5.

I didn't feel it applied to every year thereafter.

Same here. I think he felt that this team, with this schedule, should go 7-5 at a minimum.

And they should have.

When a coach is in his 8th year, and near the end of his current contract, you can do a year by year analysis like this.

 

[elimunelson]

It bothers me that Wildhack kept talking about the importance of getting "the 13th game", (a bowl game in the current system), yet applied a 7-5 standard to Dino when we've achieved that standard 7 times in this century. What we need is a run of bowl seasons that would make us more attractive to recruits than we are now and would, with the improvements in facilities and hopefully a competitive NIL situation would put us on a plane higher than our current and provide a base for trying to elevate us to the next level above that. I doubt we are going to get a coach who does that overnight. We've had five different coaches win 40% of their games over the last 22 seasons. It obviously isn't easy. We are in an unglamorous, (if under-rated) location in a state that doesn't produce much FBS talent competing against a lot of southern schools that are in prime recruiting areas. We're also a mid-size private school rather than a large state school. Those things matter.

Jack Crouthamel used to extend his football coaches contract after every winning season so he wouldn't have to make a decision on a coach after a winning year. They played 11 games in those days with only a dozen or so bowls so a 6-6 bowl season would have bene the equivalent of Jakes winning year. We still have a chance to do that this year. I think Jake's minimum level of achievement should have been 6-6 and a bowl. That ship has sailed but I'll put myself on record as saying the departing was premature.

Now, like everybody else, I'm just curious as to what happens next - and what the minimum standard will be.

to think Pasqualoni went 7-4, 6-5, 6-6 and 6-4-1 and was bowl-less to boot! In today's modern age P would have been bowl-less 1 time in 14 seasons.

Where is the Paul Pasqualoni statue?

 

[BomberOrange]

Back in the day they played 11 games because there was no FCS game. We are 4-6 this year vs FBS so it is a losing FBS season. Then going back we were 6-6, 4-7, 1-10, 4-7, 9-3, 3-8, 3-8.

Also you don't just go off of one year and ignore the entire body of work. You can't say 6-6 is the minimum then have a HC go 4-7 and fire him when the prior 3 years he went 7-5 every year. That would be silly. As would keeping a guy who went 6-5 this year but went 4-7 the prior 3 years.

we played Colgate in 1987...they were D1-AA.

 

[SUDadx2]

It bothers me that Wildhack kept talking about the importance of getting "the 13th game", (a bowl game in the current system), yet applied a 7-5 standard to Dino when we've achieved that standard 7 times in this century.

I agree. Before the BC game, the article below quoted JW as follows,

“I go back to what I said prior to the season. Our goal is to play well enough in the first 12 games that we’re guaranteed to get that 13th game. To get to that bowl game. That is clearly still within our grasp.”

“As I said publicly back in June or July, we’re playing 12 games,” Wildhack said. “You want to play those 12 well enough that you get to play 13. If you have a special year, maybe you get to play more than 13.”

If these are an example of your public statements regarding the goals of the program, then I think the AD needs to work on his communications skills if he doesn't want fans and supporters to feel misled or lied to.

JW said he is looking for a coach with strong leadership and communication skills. It would also be nice to have an AD who possessed those same qualities.

MSN

Personally, my optimistic Cali Awards prediction before the season was 8-4. That was also before we lost Gadsden, Wholabaugh, More, Shrader and Del Rio Wilson to injuries.


Wildhack, hmmm...

 

[007]

I agree. Before the BC game, the article below quoted JW as follows,

“I go back to what I said prior to the season. Our goal is to play well enough in the first 12 games that we’re guaranteed to get that 13th game. To get to that bowl game. That is clearly still within our grasp.”

“As I said publicly back in June or July, we’re playing 12 games,” Wildhack said. “You want to play those 12 well enough that you get to play 13. If you have a special year, maybe you get to play more than 13.”

If these are an example of your public statements regarding the goals of the program, then I think the AD needs to work on his communications skills if he doesn't want fans and supporters to feel misled or lied to.

JW said he is looking for a coach with strong leadership and communication skills. It would also be nice to have an AD who possessed those same qualities.

MSN

Personally, my optimistic Cali Awards prediction before the season was 8-4. That was also before we lost Gadsden, Wholabaugh, More, Shrader and Del Rio Wilson to injuries.


Wildhack, hmmm...

Two things that surprised me with the way this played out:

One, JW fired DB and, more significantly, went public with his decision in season.

Two, JW moved the goalposts with the 7-5 criteria from what he has stated publicly and privately (per my understanding at least as of the BC game). I know you had more informed information.

To be clear, I agree with his decision to fire and to get a "head start" on the process - even though I think the process had already started. I think both issues noted above are interrelated. It leads me to believe that JW already has his target and needs to act quickly to wrap this up.

 

[ChrisCourt]

Imagine if you will, in future seasons, SU goes 7-5, 8-4, 8-4, 7-5, 9-3, 10-2, 10-2, 11-1, 11-1, 12-0, 12-0

Oh sorry... "I've fallen and I cant get up!"

Hey, one can dream!

 

[RandomGuy]

I agree. Before the BC game, the article below quoted JW as follows,

“I go back to what I said prior to the season. Our goal is to play well enough in the first 12 games that we’re guaranteed to get that 13th game. To get to that bowl game. That is clearly still within our grasp.”

“As I said publicly back in June or July, we’re playing 12 games,” Wildhack said. “You want to play those 12 well enough that you get to play 13. If you have a special year, maybe you get to play more than 13.”

If these are an example of your public statements regarding the goals of the program, then I think the AD needs to work on his communications skills if he doesn't want fans and supporters to feel misled or lied to.

JW said he is looking for a coach with strong leadership and communication skills. It would also be nice to have an AD who possessed those same qualities.

MSN

Personally, my optimistic Cali Awards prediction before the season was 8-4. That was also before we lost Gadsden, Wholabaugh, More, Shrader and Del Rio Wilson to injuries.


Wildhack, hmmm...

I think you need to factor in quality of play. We had a stretch, on National TV, where we underperformed enough to have former players saying we were an embarrassment, or we shouldn't be on National TV. Thats not good. Its not the exposure the program wants- or needs.

Losses happen, even against mediocre teams. A heartbreaking loss, in a hard fought game , is one thing. To be dominated, by a middling team? Those cut FAR deeper. Sadly, we've had plenty of the latter kind, over the years. So many, its almost to be expected. :-(

 

[RandomGuy]

Imagine if you will, in future seasons, SU goes 7-5, 8-4, 8-4, 7-5, 9-3, 10-2, 10-2, 11-1, 11-1, 12-0, 12-0

Oh sorry... "I've fallen and I cant get up!"

Hey, one can dream!

I wish!!!!!

Addazzio at BC, went bowling 6 out of 7 seasons, and was fired for it. Over that span, WE recruited better. (Don't give me that in road to catholic school BS...lol!) I sincerely thought we would be FAR better with Babers, than BC/Addazio. We were not. :-(

 

[Cusefan95]

to think Pasqualoni went 7-4, 6-5, 6-6 and 6-4-1 and was bowl-less to boot! In today's modern age P would have been bowl-less 1 time in 14 seasons.

Where is the Paul Pasqualoni statue?

My opinion is Coach P killed Syracuse football. The problems of lack of investment were negatively impacting the program and its long term health, but he was too much of a “company man” to complain about it, and too good of a coach to have bad enough seasons that would have forced priorities to be re-evaluated.

For a guy who dealt with as much crap from his superiors to be let go the way he was is an embarrassment. But I kinda wish he’d been a little more selfish and left for greener pastures after ‘93, saying SU wasn’t spending enough to compete. I think things would have worked out better for both him and SU in the long run if he’d been a little less of a “company man”.

 

[SUDadx2]

I think you need to factor in quality of play. We had a stretch, on National TV, where we underperformed enough to have former players saying we were an embarrassment, or we shouldn't be on National TV. Thats not good. Its not the exposure the program wants- or needs.

Losses happen, even against mediocre teams. A heartbreaking loss, in a hard fought game , is one thing. To be dominated, by a middling team? Those cut FAR deeper. Sadly, we've had plenty of the latter kind, over the years. So many, its almost to be expected. :-(

I don't have an issue with the decision to let DB go, so no need to rehash the justification. It was justified and expected.

My post is about Wildhack and his lack of candor when discussing goal for 2023 back in July and again before the BC game. His comments about the goal for a program where the same head coach had not been to back-to-back bowl games since Pausqualoni did it 24 years (before most of our players were born) was to play in 13 games have proven to be misleading and disingenuous.

If JW wants the next coach to be a good communicator and a person of high character, JW might consider being a good communicator and a person a high character himself.

Two things have come to light this week that concern me and would concern me if I was thinking of taking the HC job at Syracuse.

1. JW's comments in the media about the "goals" for the season were disingenuous. The goal was 7- and 5 during the regular season and not 13 games as he said on more than one occasion.
2. IMO, JW threw DB under the bus regarding the issue of staying on to coach the team after being fired. IMO, that should have been a confidential conversation. The only reason for sharing such information was to make himself (JW) look good (I tried) and to make DB look bad. No bueno, IMO.

Syracuse may be a "basketball school", but football brings in more money than any other athletic program at Syracuse so this hire is huge and could define Wildhack's tenure at Syracuse. JW spoke about minimizing the "misses" in recruiting. Well, it's your turn JW.

 

[djorange1989]

I think you need to factor in quality of play. We had a stretch, on National TV, where we underperformed enough to have former players saying we were an embarrassment, or we shouldn't be on National TV. Thats not good. Its not the exposure the program wants- or needs.

Losses happen, even against mediocre teams. A heartbreaking loss, in a hard fought game , is one thing. To be dominated, by a middling team? Those cut FAR deeper. Sadly, we've had plenty of the latter kind, over the years. So many, its almost to be expected. :-(

Yes the 5 game losing streak was an abomination, we should never have to lost to BC, I don’t care who is hurt, and we never should have looked so horrific against Tech in particular along with NC and FSU. Same stuff every year, Dino didn’t have a GM putting the roster together, that was his job, and he didn’t do that well enough when year after year we collapsed the minute our starting QB got hurt

 

[Cusefan95]

I don't have an issue with the decision to let DB go, so no need to rehash the justification. It was justified and expected.

My post is about Wildhack and his lack of candor when discussing goal for 2023 back in July and again before the BC game. His comments about the goal for a program where the same head coach had not been to back-to-back bowl games since Pausqualoni did it 24 years (before most of our players were born) was to play in 13 games have proven to be misleading and disingenuous.

It’s wildly unfair to expect an AD to list out every conceivable issue which could impact the decision to retain or fire a coach. Maybe 6-6 would have been OK if the team didn’t get blown out 4 weeks in a row (including to a crappy VT team). Or if we had a viable back-up QB in the BC game, since that highlights just how awful Dino recruited.

Whatever the stated criteria, there’s always going to be potential for extenuating circumstances which impact the decision. As noted, we had two such potential circumstances.

My guess is 6-6 might have been ok if we played tough against Clemson, UNC, and VT. But we didn’t - and that’s part of why the firing was inevitable. If extenuating circumstances effecting the decision make you think the AD lacks candor, the correct course of action is for him to say nothing at all and just tell fans he’s in charge and you’ll get info when he’s good and ready to tell you. It’s the Belichick approach which annoys people - but posts like yours may help explain why some coaches and ADs choose to communicate that way.

 

[baggerbob]

I don't have an issue with the decision to let DB go, so no need to rehash the justification. It was justified and expected.

My post is about Wildhack and his lack of candor when discussing goal for 2023 back in July and again before the BC game. His comments about the goal for a program where the same head coach had not been to back-to-back bowl games since Pausqualoni did it 24 years (before most of our players were born) was to play in 13 games have proven to be misleading and disingenuous.

If JW wants the next coach to be a good communicator and a person of high character, JW might consider being a good communicator and a person a high character himself.

Two things have come to light this week that concern me and would concern me if I was thinking of taking the HC job at Syracuse.

1. JW's comments in the media about the "goals" for the season were disingenuous. The goal was 7- and 5 during the regular season and not 13 games as he said on more than one occasion.
2. IMO, JW threw DB under the bus regarding the issue of staying on to coach the team after being fired. IMO, that should have been a confidential conversation. The only reason for sharing such information was to make himself (JW) look good (I tried) and to make DB look bad. No bueno, IMO.

Syracuse may be a "basketball school", but football brings in more money than any other athletic program at Syracuse so this hire is huge and could define Wildhack's tenure at Syracuse. JW spoke about minimizing the "misses" in recruiting. Well, it's your turn JW.

Have to agree with another poster Dino by looking like he gave up in a couple of games changed the narrative for how he would be retained.
His actions against FSU were enough to be warned he might be fired.
Then the game against Virginia Tech was an embarrassment.

 

[SUDadx2]

It’s wildly unfair to expect an AD to list out every conceivable issue which could impact the decision to retain or fire a coach. Maybe 6-6 would have been OK if the team didn’t get blown out 4 weeks in a row (including to a crappy VT team). Or if we had a viable back-up QB in the BC game, since that highlights just how awful Dino recruited.

Whatever the stated criteria, there’s always going to be potential for extenuating circumstances which impact the decision. As noted, we had two such potential circumstances.

My guess is 6-6 might have been ok if we played tough against Clemson, UNC, and VT. But we didn’t - and that’s part of why the firing was inevitable. If extenuating circumstances effecting the decision make you think the AD lacks candor, the correct course of action is for him to say nothing at all and just tell fans he’s in charge and you’ll get info when he’s good and ready to tell you. It’s the Belichick approach which annoys people - but posts like yours may help explain why some coaches and ADs choose to communicate that way.

Conceptually I don't disagree with you. However, as the AD of a Power 5 program I expect you to be savvy enough not to put anything definitive like "the goal is to play 13 games" or "the benchmark for the season is a 7-5 record" out in the ether.

Certainly "extenuating circumstances" will impact any decision. Extenuating circumstances like...

• Injuries (mitigating)
• Playing ugly football on a national stage (aggravating)
• Not having sufficient depth to have a QB who can actually throw downfield efficiently after QB1 and QB2 go down to injury. (aggravating)

A savvy communicator would avoid statements with absolutes like '13 games" or '7-5", and simply open with a statement to the affect "we have decided to make a change".

Everything the HC does will be heavily scrutinized, and right now all of the responsibility and scrutiny is on JW's desk. To date, has JW hit it out of the park with any of his head coaching hires?


Moving on... Gonna pop some popcorn and enjoy the show.

 

[baggerbob]

Conceptually I don't disagree with you. However, as the AD of a Power 5 program I expect you to be savvy enough not to put anything definitive like "the goal is to play 13 games" or "the benchmark for the season is a 7-5 record" out in the ether.

Certainly "extenuating circumstances" will impact any decision. Extenuating circumstances like...

• Injuries (mitigating)
• Playing ugly football on a national stage (aggravating)
• Not having sufficient depth to have a QB who can actually throw downfield efficiently after QB1 and QB2 go down to injury. (aggravating)

A savvy communicator would avoid statements with absolutes like '13 games" or '7-5", and simply open with a statement to the affect "we have decided to make a change".

Everything the HC does will be heavily scrutinized, and right now all of the responsibility and scrutiny is on JW's desk. To date, has JW hit it out of the park with any of his head coaching hires?


Moving on... Gonna pop some popcorn and enjoy the show.

Couldn't have hired anyone better then FLJ, not only a good coach, but a better person.

 

[Ringostar57]

Replying to SWC about bowl bids in the ancient past, we went 8-2 in 1968 and having demolished a 1 loss UCLA (OJ and USC) we didn't even sniff a bowl bid. Still haven't gotten over it!

 

[RandomGuy]

I don't have an issue with the decision to let DB go, so no need to rehash the justification. It was justified and expected.

My post is about Wildhack and his lack of candor when discussing goal for 2023 back in July and again before the BC game. His comments about the goal for a program where the same head coach had not been to back-to-back bowl games since Pausqualoni did it 24 years (before most of our players were born) was to play in 13 games have proven to be misleading and disingenuous.

If JW wants the next coach to be a good communicator and a person of high character, JW might consider being a good communicator and a person a high character himself.

Two things have come to light this week that concern me and would concern me if I was thinking of taking the HC job at Syracuse.

1. JW's comments in the media about the "goals" for the season were disingenuous. The goal was 7- and 5 during the regular season and not 13 games as he said on more than one occasion.
2. IMO, JW threw DB under the bus regarding the issue of staying on to coach the team after being fired. IMO, that should have been a confidential conversation. The only reason for sharing such information was to make himself (JW) look good (I tried) and to make DB look bad. No bueno, IMO.

Syracuse may be a "basketball school", but football brings in more money than any other athletic program at Syracuse so this hire is huge and could define Wildhack's tenure at Syracuse. JW spoke about minimizing the "misses" in recruiting. Well, it's your turn JW.

My point was that narrative should have been changed, based on the "quality" of the loss...

To your point, maybe nothing should have been said before the BC game. Its also possible that the QB situation came as a surprise...