The numbers of our seasons broken down since 2014

[SaltLakeOrange]

I don’t. He had good games against mid majors and is the better defender. He’s not a more efficient scorer/shooter and the stats don’t show he’s any better at setting up others (assists). For that matter, the stats don’t show that he causes turnovers (steals) at a significantly higher rate. Turnover rate is also equal.

I know, I know, “but PER says blah, blah, blah...”

You couldn't be more wrong on all fronts. He plays 1/4 the minutes (maybe) and has equal to better stats than JGIII. Joe probably scores more because he takes many, many more shots with impunity.

 

[Brooky03]

You couldn't be more wrong on all fronts. He plays 1/4 the minutes (maybe) and has equal to better stats than JGIII. Joe probably scores more because he takes many, many more shots with impunity.

We’re talking advanced stats and per 40 numbers. They don’t depend on minutes played (not the ones I referenced, at least). Aside from steal rate (which I admitted in a later post I read the wrong column for Kadary), the main ones (shooting, assists, turnovers) are statistically equal (a margin within the expected standard deviation).

edit: and Kadary doesn’t play a quarter of Joe’s minutes. He plays 2/3rds of his minutes.

 

[Brooky03]

Btw, did a poster in this thread really put me on ignore because he replied to me with an intentionally condescending post and got upset when he got the same attitude back?

lol, wild. Been here a while. That was a first.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

We’re talking advanced stats and per 40 numbers. They don’t depend on minutes played (not the ones I referenced, at least). Aside from steal rate (which I admitted in a later post I read the wrong column for Kadary), the main ones (shooting, assists, turnovers) are statistically equal (a margin within the expected standard deviation).

edit: and Kadary doesn’t play a quarter of Joe’s minutes. He plays 2/3rds of his minutes.

Thanks for the correction!

 

[Red Holzman]

What will Kadary do for us in 30 minutes that’s an improvement over what he’s done in 20?

Only one way to find out what Kadary does with the keys and 30"...
I'm good with learning the answer.

 

[OrangeDW]

What will Kadary do for us in 30 minutes that’s an improvement over what he’s done in 20?

Teams haven’t been getting out to big early leads against us based on Joe’s defense or shooting. So why can’t Joe start?

hopefully take the reigns as the primary ball handler and facilitate the offense like he did against Rutgers.

You seem to think he played well in the games he started because it was against “weak” opponents. But Rutgers is better than Pitt and Georgetown.

At worst, he makes us better defensively and if we could ever get a rebound, gives us a guy who can get us more easy hoops in transition.

 

[malpearl31]

I believe every player’s mental makeup is different, and they react to different styles of coaching and motivation. I hate to play pop psychologist, but it looks to me that Kadary is playing with some degree of hesitation, because he has JB ready to give him a very quick hook.

So I agree in theory that simply giving him a few more minutes won’t, in and of itself, make him better. But, I do believe that giving him latitude to play through mistakes could pay dividends. Hence my suggestion to give him a substantial chunk of minutes free from the JB hook.

Joe gets that benefit because JB trusts him after last season. But of course, Joe got uninterrupted minutes to build that trust. And it’s not like he didn’t make many mistakes in that time last year.

And this is just one thing I suggested. Doing nothing but wait for Shaquille Sidibe to mayyybe come back seems like terrible coaching IMHO.

I’m totally on board with Kadary getting more minutes, let me say that right from the start. Joe has not been very good this year (even if I do think he gets an outsized portion of the blame for the team’s struggles so far), and if playing Kadary more and Joe less is the answer then sign me up.

But when I see references to “the JB hook” with respect to Kadary, I have to say I completely disagree that this is a thing. (It has been with other players in other years, but not now, in my opinion.) I can’t remember a single time this season that JB put Kadary in the game and then immediately pulled him after one mistake. Kadary has looked a little tentative out there in the last couple of games, but I don’t think it’s fair to pin that on JB because he’s messing with Kadary by repeatedly pulling him after every mistake. Yesterday, Kadary checked in with 14:40 to play, and SU trailing 52-48. He played the rest of the game - and definitely played through a few mistakes - yet there was no “JB hook”.

We need Kadary to play better, and we need Joe to play better. And it would be nice if Buddy found his jumper. And I would love it if Griffin would maybe cut out the horrendous turnovers, and maybe Marek could get a little bit tougher on the inside, too?

 

[sufandu]

You don’t need to convince me of how good the Big East was in the 80s/90s. Believe me. You can argue that was the best college conference in any sport, ever.

So why are you saying we have had tougher competition since moving to the ACC? Those two opinions are conflicting.

 

[Scooch]

I’m totally on board with Kadary getting more minutes, let me say that right from the start. Joe has not been very good this year (even if I do think he gets an outsized portion of the blame for the team’s struggles so far), and if playing Kadary more and Joe less is the answer then sign me up.

But when I see references to “the JB hook” with respect to Kadary, I have to say I completely disagree that this is a thing. (It has been with other players in other years, but not now, in my opinion.) I can’t remember a single time this season that JB put Kadary in the game and then immediately pulled him after one mistake. Kadary has looked a little tentative out there in the last couple of games, but I don’t think it’s fair to pin that on JB because he’s messing with Kadary by repeatedly pulling him after every mistake. Yesterday, Kadary checked in with 14:40 to play, and SU trailing 52-48. He played the rest of the game - and definitely played through a few mistakes - yet there was no “JB hook”.

We need Kadary to play better, and we need Joe to play better. And it would be nice if Buddy found his jumper. And I would love it if Griffin would maybe cut out the horrendous turnovers, and maybe Marek could get a little bit tougher on the inside, too?

Yesterday Kadary was allowed to play because JB finally had it with Joe’s indiscriminate chucking.

Kadary hasn’t gotten the one-mistake-and-out hook, but he’s been on a much shorter leash than anyone else on the team who isn’t a 7 foot skinny center.

 

[MikeSU02]

So why are you saying we have had tougher competition since moving to the ACC? Those two opinions are conflicting.

I meant the end of our run in the big East and what was to come in the ACC (Duke, Carolina, Ville) and that’s not even expecting UVA and FSU to be so good. The point I was trying to make there was that we had to know we were going to be part of the best bball conference (with all the new teams joining), blue bloods, new recruiting competition, etc. Meaning no coasting.

The run the Big East had with those teams in the 80s and 90s would blow the doors off any other conference. Give me those Big Monday memories all the time.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yesterday Kadary was allowed to play because JB finally had it with Joe’s indiscriminate chucking.

Kadary hasn’t gotten the one-mistake-and-out hook, but he’s been on a much shorter leash than anyone else on the team who isn’t a 7 foot skinny center.

Agreed. And it doesn’t make sense, because I think he and Marek have the best b-ball IQs on the team.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Experience matters. And I think Joe has more ability to break a game open than Kadary.

The only things that Joe Girard can break open are packages that have “high fructose corn syrup” listed as the top ingredient.

 

[Sherman20]

First, and I can’t believe I’m going to say this, there are programs that would kill for a run like that, even though most Cuse fans consider it wildly disappointing.

However, my biggest issues over that time period are:

1) Recruiting has fallen off a cliff. Kudos to the staff for landing some great transfers, but we are now at a spot where we’re going to have a tough time being competitive no matter who the coach is.

2) The ACC is just a tougher league than the version of the Big East that we were in before moving. I know the BE had some top top teams, but your day in/day out of the ACC was always going to be a step up, which meant we needed to as well. Instead it feels like we’ve been patching things together and just grinding every year.

3) Here is my biggest issue, honestly: it feels like any sort of creativity or change in strategy has just gone out the window when I watch these teams. Where’s the brilliant lineup move? Where’s the game where JB just makes the other coach look like a fool. Where is that energy you see when guys will run through a wall for their coach? What ideas are coming from Red, GMac or Griff that throw a wrinkle into what we do?

JB isn’t out there saying and doing terrible things like Bobby Knight. And it sure seems like he has all his faculties unlike the late stages of Bowden/Paterno. My worry is he’s just built his empire in upstate NY, crushed the Hop transition, and is now so averse to change, it’s almost like he’s doing things as a big middle finger to a world that seems to be passing him by.

Believe me when I say nothing would make me happier than for JB to get a chip that he gets to celebrate with his son. That would be an amazing story and a perfect bookend to a hall of fame career. But I just don’t see it. And he is a hall of famer, but he’s not coaching like one right now.

For the duration of my 41 years on this Earth, Syracuse basketball has been my favorite sports team. I grew up in upstate, went to Cuse for UG and grad and have bled orange my whole life. JB is Syracuse basketball for me and the last thing I want is for it to end badly.

But I keep thinking of the quote from Tom Cruise’s character in Cocktail: “everything ends badly, otherwise it wouldn't end.”

You’re wrong on the ACC being a tougher league than the 2005-2013 Big East. But agree on everything else.

 

[Sherman20]

A good counter would be to give examples. The post season that year was GREAT. The regular season ended up being a disappointment. Look at the schedule before posting. Thanks.

You don’t have a clue what you’re talking about. Stop. I remember that season well. We beat Louisville, the #1 team in the country, on the road in January. That Cuse team struggled a bit in late February because of a brutal close to the season with a bunch of road games and some lackluster defense. But they wound up a four seed and a BE tourney finalist once they re-discovered their zone mojo.

 

[malpearl31]

Yesterday Kadary was allowed to play because JB finally had it with Joe’s indiscriminate chucking.

Kadary hasn’t gotten the one-mistake-and-out hook, but he’s been on a much shorter leash than anyone else on the team who isn’t a 7 foot skinny center.

I'm glad we're in agreement that there is no "JB hook" with respect to Kadary. That's not a thing this year, and there's no reason to make it one.

I would also speculate that "Joe's indiscriminate chucking" didn't play much of a role in JB's decision to sub Kadary into the game with 14:40 to play.

If you're able to watch a replay, you can actually see that when there was a break in the action with 15:11 to play in the 2nd half (Marek was shooting 2 FTs) JB called Joe over for a little talk, and my guess is that he was upset that Joe had just given up a 3-pt FG to Pitt's best shooter (Horton) on the prior possession.

As play resumed, you can see that JB had sent Kadary to the scorer's table to check into the game... and at that point, Joe had taken exactly one shot in the 2nd half - a wide-open 3-pt attempt with 18:25 remaining. So I don't think "indiscriminate chucking" had much to do with the substitution.

 

[Brooky03]

I'm glad we're in agreement that there is no "JB hook" with respect to Kadary. That's not a thing this year, and there's no reason to make it one.

I would also speculate that "Joe's indiscriminate chucking" didn't play much of a role in JB's decision to sub Kadary into the game with 14:40 to play.

If you're able to watch a replay, you can actually see that when there was a break in the action with 15:11 to play in the 2nd half (Marek was shooting 2 FTs) JB called Joe over for a little talk, and my guess is that he was upset that Joe had just given up a 3-pt FG to Pitt's best shooter (Horton) on the prior possession.

As play resumed, you can see that JB had sent Kadary to the scorer's table to check into the game... and at that point, Joe had taken exactly one shot in the 2nd half - a wide-open 3-pt attempt with 18:25 remaining. So I don't think "indiscriminate chucking" had much to do with the substitution.

Girard is 4th on the team in FGA. The way some talk about his shot selection you’d think he’s far and away the leader in attempts.

 

[malpearl31]

Girard is 4th on the team in FGA. The way some talk about his shot selection you’d think he’s far and away the leader in attempts.

Joe's shot selection has definitely been bad at times, but I didn't think it was a problem against Pitt on Saturday (nor did I think it was really a problem against Carolina on Tuesday). Pinning either of those losses primarily on Joe because of the "Kadary vs Joe" debate is incorrect, in my opinion.

 

[Scooch]

I'm glad we're in agreement that there is no "JB hook" with respect to Kadary. That's not a thing this year, and there's no reason to make it one.

I would also speculate that "Joe's indiscriminate chucking" didn't play much of a role in JB's decision to sub Kadary into the game with 14:40 to play.

If you're able to watch a replay, you can actually see that when there was a break in the action with 15:11 to play in the 2nd half (Marek was shooting 2 FTs) JB called Joe over for a little talk, and my guess is that he was upset that Joe had just given up a 3-pt FG to Pitt's best shooter (Horton) on the prior possession.

As play resumed, you can see that JB had sent Kadary to the scorer's table to check into the game... and at that point, Joe had taken exactly one shot in the 2nd half - a wide-open 3-pt attempt with 18:25 remaining. So I don't think "indiscriminate chucking" had much to do with the substitution.

We’re not in agreement. I said that there isn’t the quick hook with Kadary that we’ve seen from JB many times before. He hasn’t received the kind of leash that Joe, Buddy and Griffin have received.

And I’ll say yet again, the Kadary/Joe thing is just one of a half dozen suggestions I made. It’s the easiest to harp on, but I think others might have far more impact if we want to turn this season around.

 

[HOFCeluck]

I dont think Joes problems are primarily on the offensive side.

Not to say he's FINE on the offensive side. Think of it more of an indictment of his defense.

 

[malpearl31]

We’re not in agreement. I said that there isn’t the quick hook with Kadary that we’ve seen from JB many times before. He hasn’t received the kind of leash that Joe, Buddy and Griffin have received.

And I’ll say yet again, the Kadary/Joe thing is just one of a half dozen suggestions I made. It’s the easiest to harp on, but I think others might have far more impact if we want to turn this season around.

Well, in the original post I responded to you said "it looks to me that Kadary is playing with some degree of hesitation, because he has JB ready to give him a very quick hook". If you're now saying that there is not a quick hook with regard to Kadary, then I think we are actually in agreement.

 

[Scooch]

Well, in the original post I responded to you said "it looks to me that Kadary is playing with some degree of hesitation, because he has JB ready to give him a very quick hook". If you're now saying that there is not a quick hook with regard to Kadary, then I think we are actually in agreement.

Let’s just say that it’s quicker than JB employs for every regular on the team who isn’t 7 feet tall and skinny.

 

[malpearl31]

Let’s just say that it’s quicker than JB employs for every regular on the team who isn’t 7 feet tall and skinny.

I can get on board with that statement for sure. I just needed to point out that the stereotypical "quick hook" is not really a thing with respect to Kadary's minutes. 15 straight minutes in the 2nd half against Pitt, 8 straight minutes in the 2nd half against Carolina, 19 straight minutes in the 2nd half/OT against Buffalo... there's no "quick hook" that should be causing Kadary to play with any hesitation whatsoever.

 

[Scooch]

I can get on board with that statement for sure. I just needed to point out that the stereotypical "quick hook" is not really a thing with respect to Kadary's minutes. 15 straight minutes in the 2nd half against Pitt, 8 straight minutes in the 2nd half against Carolina, 19 straight minutes in the 2nd half/OT against Buffalo... there's no "quick hook" that should be causing Kadary to play with any hesitation whatsoever.

Fair enough. I would like to understand what transpired between Buffalo and the start of ACC play. I suspect some of it is simply the step up in competition. However, Kadary looks less confident to me (noted non-expert) and I can’t chalk all of it up to simply being up against better teams. He’s lost some degree of swagger.