The numbers of our seasons broken down since 2014

[CuseCPT]

Can’t wait for a coach to come in here and turn in .400 seasons. That’ll be a fun chapter.

As Dalton says in the cinematic masterpiece Roadhouse, "It'll get worse before it gets better."

I think any chance we had for a zero fall-off transition left the building with Hop, and even that was far from a given. The question now is how low does our fall-off start from?

 

[SBU72]

He didn't say 2013 wasn't a good year. He said you can go back and trace the beginning of the decline to it. It wasn't obvious at the time, but, looking back, you could see some cracks beginning to form. We had a lot of good pieces but lacked that scorer that could break down guys in the halfcourt and get his own shot when necessary the way Waiters could the year before. When the top of the zone turned teams over and we got into transition, we were great. When teams made us score in the halfcourt, we had trouble. That hurt us in conference play that year.

The next year the 25-0 start made many ignore our flaws, but the poor finish to the regular season and poor showings in the tournaments showed where we were headed, especially once Ennis and Grant, guys we thought would develop into college stars, left early.

Since then, we have either done a poor job of grabbing elite young guys that could be studs immediately, guys with potential have left early before they could really help us, or we haven't developed other guys.

Going 25-0 doesn't necessarily mean ignoring the flaws just that work arounds were found. However if you wish to say those work arounds lead to dead ends, you may have a point. Finding ways around problems by emphasizing strengths is what a coach is suppose to do, but you have to at least continue having those strengths.

 

[SBU72]

So a bunch of suckers like paying for sub .33 P6 basketball games. That’s what that arguement shows

Yup and until those "suckers" (SU supporters no matter what) say no more with their wallet nothing probably will happen. Hey I haven't paid a dime (other than getting ESPN) to SU so my opinion means exactly what I paid.

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Yup and until those "suckers" (SU supporters no matter what) say no more with their wallet nothing probably will happen. Hey I haven't paid a dime (other than getting ESPN) to SU so my opinion means exactly what I paid.

 

[MSOrange]

If JB listened to Hop we may have had SGA as our point guard instead of doubling and tripling down on Quade Green.

Help me out - I am having a brain cramp on SGA? Who is that?

 

[Cusefan0307]

Help me out - I am having a brain cramp on SGA? Who is that?

Shai Gilgeous Alexander

 

[SaltLakeOrange]

Help me out - I am having a brain cramp on SGA? Who is that?

I'm pretty sure its Shai Gilgeous-Alexander

 

[sufandu]

im not dying on this hill, believe me. We can disagree. My point is that, to me, our day in/day out is harder. Two blue bloods, Ville, have to recruit against big time legends.

I believe the ACC, for the duration of our tenure, has been harder than what we were in on a day to day basis, especially with recruiting.

my point wasn’t to excuse JB, it was that he failed in stepping up. So instead of being slotted into the top group of teams, we landed smack in the middle.

ACC, Big East, Big Pun... whatever. My point was that we didn’t step up to the new challenge.

If you feel the BE was harder, totally fine. I’m worried about a JB that is just operating in a bubble without caring that we’re on the brink of collapse.

You're right we disagree. JB has always had to coach/recruit against legends. John Thompson, Jim Calhoun, Carneseca, Massimino, Pitino. Three of those guys were legends when K still had a reputation for not being able to win the big one. Two of the Three had won NCs before K win his first. In '85 3 teams made the final 4. There were 2 in the FF in '87. Even after the league grew in the mid-late 90's it was a consistently tougher league than the ACC has been. In '96 the league had a 1, 2, 3, and 4 seed in the tournament. In 2009, they had three 1 seeds and 7 teams in the tournament. In 2011, 11 of 16 members made the tournament and UConn won the NC. That's a lot of greatness spread across SU's whole time in the league.

In 2014, our first season in the ACC only 4 teams were ranked in the top 25 at the end of the season prior to the NCAA tournament and only two in the top 10. 6 out 15 teams made the NCAA tournament. In 2015, again 4 finished in the top 25 and 6 made the tournament. In 2016, 5 finished the season ranked and 7 made the tournament. In 2017, 6 teams finished ranked and 9 teams made the tournament. In 2018, 5 teams finished ranked and 9 again made the tournament. And in 2019, 5 teams finished ranked and 7 made the tournament. 3 teams got number 1 seeds. The last few years have been the deepest and the mosk akin to what we had in the Big East.

The ACC has been good since SU joined. It hasn't been better/deeper than the Big East was.

 

[NineOneSeven]

If you look at our PPG rankings there certainly was a style shift. Starting post GMac (cuz I don't feel like going back further):

2007 51st
2008 21st
2009 9th
2010 7th
2011 59th
2012 40th
2013 98th
2014 259th
2015 168th
2016 251st
2017 106th
2018 317th
2019 257th
2020 94th


Hence my point that things started to change in 2013. Prior to that our worst was 59th. We haven't played "SU BBall" since 2012. What we have had since has been hard to watch.

Last year wasn’t higher than that? Defense was bad but we scored. And does 2017 mean the 2016/2017? Or 2017-2018

 

[Cusefan0307]

Last year wasn’t higher than that? Defense was bad but we scored. And does 2017

PPG doesn’t take into account pace of play so...

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Last year wasn’t higher than that? Defense was bad but we scored. And does 2017 mean the 2016/2017? Or 2017-2018

Our PPG were up sadly we were still poor nationally. Just tells you how far we have fallen to think last year was a good year.

 

[sufandu]

Don’t recruit guys who could make the NBA?

What?

That's not what I said. You recruit the elites or the guys that the NBA isn't interested in taking early that are unskilled but athletic (Jerami Grant). There are great college players every year like that, guards with great speed and skills but too small to be lottery picks after a freshman or sophomore year, big guys that are strong with low post skill but lack elite athleticism (Rick Jackson/Arinze) Onuaku).

 

[sufandu]

The thing that changed was pace of play. Teams started to slow us down.

Why have teams been able to impose their will on us and we haven't imposed ours on them?

 

[HRE Otto IV]

PPG doesn’t take into account pace of play so...

Brilliant observation. Our pace of play used to be fast. It hasn't been since 2012. From what I recall we were quite efficient in 2014, hence the 25-0 start. My point is our style changed. It doesn't mean it is better, it means it is CLEARLY different. SU BBall during the Big East era was a different style of play and we recruited a different style of player. We had waaaay more success during the regular season with that style. Our post season success given our seed has been better with the reinvented style of play. The problem is we struggle to even get into the NCAAT.

 

[Cusesky8214]

 

[sufandu]

Going 25-0 doesn't necessarily mean ignoring the flaws just that work arounds were found. However if you wish to say those work arounds lead to dead ends, you may have a point. Finding ways around problems by emphasizing strengths is what a coach is suppose to do, but you have to at least continue having those strengths.

In the midst of that run, there were people pointing out things that didn't look good. They were basically told to shut up. Somtimes you aren't what your record says you are.

 

[UpstateSM]

 

[HRE Otto IV]

If you look at our PPG rankings there certainly was a style shift. Starting post GMac (cuz I don't feel like going back further):

2007 51st
2008 21st
2009 9th
2010 7th
2011 59th
2012 40th
2013 98th
2014 259th
2015 168th
2016 251st
2017 106th
2018 317th
2019 257th
2020 94th


Hence my point that things started to change in 2013. Prior to that our worst was 59th. We haven't played "SU BBall" since 2012. What we have had since has been hard to watch.

Just for reference our D ranks those years

2007 155th
2008 292nd
2009 276th
2010 123rd
2011 52nd
2012 32nd
2013 20th
2014 8th
2015 88th
2016 30th
2017 141st
2018 10th
2019 43rd
2020 174th

 

[Arangeman]

Hire a hungry coach with strong recruiting ties who has the passion, drive and energy to compete yearly to be a top team. A coach who hits the recruiting trail hard. Gets in early and stays late. The program needs an infusion.

 

[MikeSU02]

You're right we disagree. JB has always had to coach/recruit against legends. John Thompson, Jim Calhoun, Carneseca, Massimino, Pitino. Three of those guys were legends when K still had a reputation for not being able to win the big one. Two of the Three had won NCs before K win his first. In '85 3 teams made the final 4. There were 2 in the FF in '87. Even after the league grew in the mid-late 90's it was a consistently tougher league than the ACC has been. In '96 the league had a 1, 2, 3, and 4 seed in the tournament. In 2009, they had three 1 seeds and 7 teams in the tournament. In 2011, 11 of 16 members made the tournament and UConn won the NC. That's a lot of greatness spread across SU's whole time in the league.

In 2014, our first season in the ACC only 4 teams were ranked in the top 25 at the end of the season prior to the NCAA tournament and only two in the top 10. 6 out 15 teams made the NCAA tournament. In 2015, again 4 finished in the top 25 and 6 made the tournament. In 2016, 5 finished the season ranked and 7 made the tournament. In 2017, 6 teams finished ranked and 9 teams made the tournament. In 2018, 5 teams finished ranked and 9 again made the tournament. And in 2019, 5 teams finished ranked and 7 made the tournament. 3 teams got number 1 seeds. The last few years have been the deepest and the mosk akin to what we had in the Big East.

The ACC has been good since SU joined. It hasn't been better/deeper than the Big East was.

You don’t need to convince me of how good the Big East was in the 80s/90s. Believe me. You can argue that was the best college conference in any sport, ever.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Haha this dude coming in hot like there are actual ideas that can help, when we all know how Boeheim do.

 

[Scooch]

I see complaints. I see few solutions. Complaints, alone, don’t merit counter-points. What are the solutions?

Start Kadary, tell him he has the PG reigns at least until the second TV timeout, barring foul trouble.

Tell Joe that he’s going to spend more time at the 2, as a catch-and-shoot gunner

Buddy gets 25-28 minutes a game unless he’s unconscious from 3.

Griffin is going to pick up some minutes at the 2 and be paired with Kadary.

Braswell and Newton get minutes at the 3, when Griff is getting breather time or is at the 2.

Marek is going to get much more time at the 4, and due to that, we’re going to see if Edwards and the other skinny tall guys have anything to contribute.

If this all flops we can go right back to the 6.5 man “rotation” we’ve been using the past few games.

 

[Sherman20]

Again exaggeration doesn’t help these arguments. 2013 was not a good year
and we played nobody until the end? Clown post. We were a 4 seed and 26-9 entering the tournament. I swear some people think people forget facts here.

We beat number one Louisville and top 25 Cincinnati in back to back games that year in January. We were the 8th ranked KP team that year. The BE was ten times better than the ACC is this year.

Yeah that’s an idiotic post by His Royal Nonsense. 2012-13 was a great year. Same with 20131-14. I even enjoyed 2015-16. But it’s been mostly downhill since then. We’ve had talent but not enough of it, and the roster construction is terrible, and the player rotations and substitutions are a joke.

 

[Brooky03]

Start Kadary, tell him he has the PG reigns at least until the second TV timeout, barring foul trouble.

Tell Joe that he’s going to spend more time at the 2, as a catch-and-shoot gunner

Buddy gets 25-28 minutes a game unless he’s unconscious from 3.

Griffin is going to pick up some minutes at the 2 and be paired with Kadary.

Braswell and Newton get minutes at the 3, when Griff is getting breather time or is at the 2.

Marek is going to get much more time at the 4, and due to that, we’re going to see if Edwards and the other skinny tall guys have anything to contribute.

If this all flops we can go right back to the 6.5 man “rotation” we’ve been using the past few games.

Kadary got 18 minutes and did nothing with them against Pitt, on either side of the ball. Joe also did nothing in 22 minutes. Giving Kadary the start and tons of playing time is a fun thing to say, it’s also just change for the sake of change.

Griffin can’t dribble. I don’t want him at Guard. Maybe literally just a few minutes, but not significantly.

I’m in favor of more run for Woody and Bras. I’d like to see it happen with Griffin on the bench instead of the 2.

Center is a problem and Marek isn’t the answer. We all agree there. But until Sid comes back (is he ever going to actually come back?), Marek does more than any of the other guys at the 5.

 

[OrangeDW]

Start Kadary, tell him he has the PG reigns at least until the second TV timeout, barring foul trouble.


Kadary got 18 minutes and did nothing with them against Pitt, on either side of the ball. Joe also did nothing in 22 minutes. Giving Kadary the start and tons of playing time is a fun thing to say, it’s also just change for the sake of change.

Griffin can’t dribble. I don’t want him at Guard. Maybe literally just a few minutes, but not significantly.

I’m in favor of more run for Woody and Bras. I’d like to see it happen with Griffin on the bench instead of the 2.

Center is a problem and Marek isn’t the answer. We all agree there. But until Sid comes back (is he ever going to actually come back?), Marek does more than any of the other guys at the 5.

Kadary statistically has been quite a bit better than Girard this year. Not sure why you have such a problem with this.