The rise and fall of Syracuse's Northeast recruiting base

[zjscuse]

The problem with GROB's recruiting was there was no strength in numbers. He recruited a handful of really good kids and then a bunch of Colgate kids. One of the reasons Marrone had to chase about 20 kids off

And tell them they had to do nothing but participate and they’d be starting by sophomore year

 

[Deleted member 8116]

Dominating recruiting of NY football is not going to keep us relevant in the current college football landscape.

You should probably go back and look at the recruits from NY over the last 4-5 seasons.

if ‘Cuse was able to scoop some, maybe not all, of the top 5 recruits in the state each year I think we are going to a bowl game every year.

Just looking very quickly at the 2017 and 2018 classes there are 2 guys starting at Ohio State (TE/OL), 1 at Penn State, 1 at Georgia (OL and was just drafted in first round). I didn’t feel like looking up anymore, but that’s 2 OL who started at big time programs.

 

[MadNY3]

Nice article in The Daily Orange by Conor Smith

Don McPherson walked into Nassau Community College football head coach John Anselmo’s office, days after he found out that he would be inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame in 2008.

Sitting in the small office, the former Syracuse quarterback spoke with Anselmo and Ed Mack, who was an assistant at Nassau. After informing them of his induction, McPherson asked the coaches what they thought of SU’s then-head coach, Greg Robinson, who was coming off a 2-10 season in 2007. Anselmo and Mack replied that they had never met Robinson. In his three years as SU’s head coach, Robinson never visited the local school that sent over 150 players to Division I programs under Anselmo.

“You gotta be kidding me,” McPherson said.


Full article

Good article with very lazy parts.

Notably, the decline of D1 talent and football participation in the Northeast over the period of time. And no talk of the Shafer years, who took the reigns from Marrone directly.

When you hire a military brat like Babers literally is, one shouldn't expect a northeastern roots-based approach. Shafer declined the program and Babers emphasis on FAST likelhy focused outside the area.

That said, hours after Cuse beat Clemson in 2018, Babers was watching Trill (a commit play in his New York State game.

We may long for clinics and romanticism, but in a world where our starting QB was on Mississippi St a year ago, a lot of things have changed...and the timeline to win is one of them. It's tough to recreate an AAU program-esque recruiting approach when the #s are down and the need to win is faster than ever.

 

[David321]

As cliche as it sounds, winning fixes a lot of problems. We have a really talented team right now IMO, just have to start bowling every year to build conference relevance.

 

[721Comstock]

You should probably go back and look at the recruits from NY over the last 4-5 seasons.

if ‘Cuse was able to scoop some, maybe not all, of the top 5 recruits in the state each year I think we are going to a bowl game every year.

Just looking very quickly at the 2017 and 2018 classes there are 2 guys starting at Ohio State (TE/OL), 1 at Penn State, 1 at Georgia (OL and was just drafted in first round). I didn’t feel like looking up anymore, but that’s 2 OL who started at big time programs.

So - if you’re one of those handful of NY guys good enough to go to a factory program -
you’d chose to go to Syracuse WHY??!!??

Just because it happens to be located somewhere in the same state as you?

During your entire lifetime, they’ve been meh, at best, with one outlier season of pretty good.


By that logic, SUNJ would always get the top NJ croots.
And, other than in Dohn’s (and RutgersAl) mind, that clearly never happens

 

[IthacaBarrel]

I think Dino's plan is fine right now and I think he has some solid talent on the roster, just needs to put a couple winning seasons together for stability and things would be fine and probably even pick up. The thing is the recruiting has tailed off because we never WIN consistently. I don't care what area of the country you are looking at.

 

[Finwad32]

By the time you factor in elongated seasons in other areas as well as Spring ball (which typically includes 3 padded games) there is a significant difference in the amount of field experience that kids get in the West & South than they do in the Northeast.

Years ago, I did a comparison with a couple of coaches from Florida… Over a four year high school span, Florida players were playing roughly double the games that NY kids were playing. With playoffs it worked out to something like 36-40 games for NY kids and 72-80 games for Florida kidsThat’s significant.

Quality coaches can be found anywhere.

There are a greater number of kids to pull from in the Southeast per district as well. So your average talent level is higher. Also, the athletes down South typically have a much higher ceiling for multiple reasons.

 

[OrlandoCuse]

Is your description of CNY athletic facilities based on current knowledge or just a guess? Because in my experience, albeit limited in CNY, but more than a couple of schools, most public schools have decent fitness facilities. Even the small high schools in Vermont have decent weight rooms and pretty nice gyms.
The fall of football in the NE is not because of lack of athletic facilities.

Correct. The facilities most NY schools are fairly decent. I work in one of the poorest rural districts in the state, without football but we have decent facilities. It’s not like these schools have facilities resembling a high security prison in Alabama

I’m almost positive facilities in NY schools aren’t at the level of schools in Texas, unless they decided to invest $50M+ since I lived there 20 years ago.

It’s rather ridiculous what that do here in Dallas. Google Allen or McKinney high school football. They would make colleges jealous.

 

[JoeCollege]

We did it once.

1997 Syracuse Orange Roster | College Football at Sports-Reference.com

1997 Syracuse Orange Roster

www.sports-reference.com

And not just the 8 NFL shields on that roster

Read the whole roster and see the great players who would be in the NFL in years to come.

Different time, but you'll never get there if you say it can't be done.

Lot of NY/CT/PA/NJ kids on that list.

 

[JoeCollege]

By the time you factor in elongated seasons in other areas as well as Spring ball (which typically includes 3 padded games) there is a significant difference in the amount of field experience that kids get in the West & South than they do in the Northeast.

Years ago, I did a comparison with a couple of coaches from Florida… Over a four year high school span, Florida players were playing roughly double the games that NY kids were playing. With playoffs it worked out to something like 36-40 games for NY kids and 72-80 games for Florida kidsThat’s significant.

Quality coaches can be found anywhere.

There are a greater number of kids to pull from in the Southeast per district as well. So your average talent level is higher. Also, the athletes down South typically have a much higher ceiling for multiple reasons.

That is huge. Even PA schools play more than NY. Some areas (Western PA, the Lancaster and Harrisburg areas, and SEPA) obviously are more football focused than others. But even in NY- look at two traditional state power houses with multiple state championships in football in Class A and B and an hour from the Dome: Maine-Endwell and Chenango Forks. In the past 20 years they've had a combined MAYBE 5 or 6 FBS scholarship football players between them, and 2 of those went to West Point (NOT disparaging Army football by any means). One OL went to Maryland after prep school and was injured. One M-E DB is starting (last I knew) at BC. Another area kid was at BC and now at Colorado State.

Prior to that this area produced the Jones brothers from U-E, Daquan Jones from Johnson City who played at Penn State and in NFL. Syracuse also had Jared Kimmel in the G-Rob years. Point is that when two of the arguably best and top notch teams in your state don't produce much D-1 talent, your in state recruiting really is tough sledding.

Sections 3 and 5 placed a lot of talent onto those 1980s and 90s SU teams. Sections 2 and 4 not so much, and Section 6 has never been a reliable recruiting territory. Ideally SU coaches will find time to develop those areas and relationships with those coaches, but other areas would seem to be priorities.

Gotta get back into NJ and FL and make some gains in SEPA and Western PA.

 

[Chip]

I think Dino's plan is fine right now and I think he has some solid talent on the roster, just needs to put a couple winning seasons together for stability and things would be fine and probably even pick up. The thing is the recruiting has tailed off because we never WIN consistently. I don't care what area of the country you are looking at.

The large swaths of empty seats in the Dome can't help. Does a recruit visiting during a game think "I'm going to put people in these seats?" Or does he think "Jesus, these people just don't care".

I'd guess the latter.

 

[dollarbill44]

I’m almost positive facilities in NY schools aren’t at the level of schools in Texas, unless they decided to invest $50M+ since I lived there 20 years ago.

It’s rather ridiculous what that do here in Dallas. Google Allen or McKinney high school football. They would make colleges jealous.

That wasn't the point i was making. You painted a scene of public schools in cny with destitute facilities and tried to make the connection between that and the fall of football in the region. I merely pointed out that athletic facilities isn't the reason for the difference in high school football development between TX, FL, GA and the northeast. It's demographics and desire, or lack thereof.
I also wanted to dispel the notion that the current state of high school facilities in the northeast is roughly equivalent to Larry Bird's barn-side basketball court, because it seemed like an outdated view. Times change and the focus on the importance of physical education has evolved.
I went to high school in Northern VA in the mid 80s to a decent sized school (2000-2200students). Our football stadium could hold 12,000, sro. My freshman year, our weight room was a half-classroom with a universal machine and a "leaper", for anyone who remembers those. We got a greatly improved weight room over the summer, which made it nicer than any weight room at SU when I attended, save the athlete gym at Manley. Now, my old high school weight room is beautiful. Funny thing, the weight room made no difference in the competitiveness of the football team.

 

[richard levy]

Nice article in The Daily Orange by Conor Smith

Don McPherson walked into Nassau Community College football head coach John Anselmo’s office, days after he found out that he would be inducted into the College Football Hall of Fame in 2008.

Sitting in the small office, the former Syracuse quarterback spoke with Anselmo and Ed Mack, who was an assistant at Nassau. After informing them of his induction, McPherson asked the coaches what they thought of SU’s then-head coach, Greg Robinson, who was coming off a 2-10 season in 2007. Anselmo and Mack replied that they had never met Robinson. In his three years as SU’s head coach, Robinson never visited the local school that sent over 150 players to Division I programs under Anselmo.

“You gotta be kidding me,” McPherson said.


Full article

At the time Robinson was coach here, a local HS football coach told me a story that when Mike Paulus was invited to the SU summer camp(?), and no one from coaching staff talked to him the entire time he was there

 

[orangencpolice]

great and detailed post, if you recruit NY hard you can find some solid kids, but not many, and we just are not going to get the once in a while 4 star/5 star kid that Ohio State/Penn State/Notre Dame are going to come after. We need to continue to focus hard on Florida, as well as Jersey, PA, MD, VA, OH, MI.

Don’t forget North Carolina. HCDB has had good success recruiting here.

 

[Cuseregular]

This has been a great discussion gents (and lady!). For someone who doesn’t follow the recruiting world closely been an informative and fascinating read through, thanks to all.

The gist to this general observer is it can be achieved, just requiring different approaches and strategies with a need for realistic expectations and goals both with the kids/recruiting classes/rank as well as the on the field results (or what I’ve always said a shot at the top 25 most years with an outlier year of great success once in a while - every 5 or so years should be the non stated program goals IMO).

 

[Bayside44]

That wasn't the point i was making. You painted a scene of public schools in cny with destitute facilities and tried to make the connection between that and the fall of football in the region. I merely pointed out that athletic facilities isn't the reason for the difference in high school football development between TX, FL, GA and the northeast. It's demographics and desire, or lack thereof.
I also wanted to dispel the notion that the current state of high school facilities in the northeast is roughly equivalent to Larry Bird's barn-side basketball court, because it seemed like an outdated view. Times change and the focus on the importance of physical education has evolved.
I went to high school in Northern VA in the mid 80s to a decent sized school (2000-2200students). Our football stadium could hold 12,000, sro. My freshman year, our weight room was a half-classroom with a universal machine and a "leaper", for anyone who remembers those. We got a greatly improved weight room over the summer, which made it nicer than any weight room at SU when I attended, save the athlete gym at Manley. Now, my old high school weight room is beautiful. Funny thing, the weight room made no difference in the competitiveness of the football team.

Which high school? They seem awash in funds here (NoVa)

 

[Deleted member 8116]

So - if you’re one of those handful of NY guys good enough to go to a factory program -
you’d chose to go to Syracuse WHY??!!??

Just because it happens to be located somewhere in the same state as you?

During your entire lifetime, they’ve been meh, at best, with one outlier season of pretty good.


By that logic, SUNJ would always get the top NJ croots.
And, other than in Dohn’s (and RutgersAl) mind, that clearly never happens

Getting them to come here is a different story. I am not saying that’s easy. His comment was “Dominating recruiting of NY football is not going to keep us relevant in the current college football landscape”.
I was just pointing out that if we could dominate, then we would most certainly be relevant and we would be making bowl games.

 

[elimunelson]

recruiting in Massachusetts has actually gotten much more streamlined since all of the good players are being recruited right into the ISL now vs playing in the public school leagues. The prep schools have begun to emphasize powerhouse teams vs 20 years ago.

Michigan has exploited this in a major way with Don Brown having those relationships at the prep schools in/around Boston. Only reason Dillon ended up at BC was because he blew his knee out when he was at Lawrence Academy. Otherwise he was heading to Michigan.

This is a small snapshot but we had those calls back in the day. I know the coach of Avon Old Farms and he was very familiar with the Syracuse coaches back when P&D were doing their thing. Relationships matter w this stuff.

 

[HSPORANGE]

I’m almost positive facilities in NY schools aren’t at the level of schools in Texas, unless they decided to invest $50M+ since I lived there 20 years ago.

It’s rather ridiculous what that do here in Dallas. Google Allen or McKinney high school football. They would make colleges jealous.

20 years ago? Good gawd that is a long time ago. Most of the Section III schools have good to very good facilities. I know Liverpool has very nice facilities from being in there.

Liverpool has ribbon cutting for their new gym and athletic facilities Also includes an indoor track circling above the court. New weight room, batting cages, swimming pool improvements.

Liverpool has ribbon cutting for their new gym and athletic facilities Also includes an indoor track circling above the court. New weight room, batting cages, swimming pool improvements.

www.syracuse.com

 

[Millhouse]

How much of our development problem is lousy weather? Kids in better weather just get more reps throwing and catching, the weather allows for it. Here, knuckleheads who only want to win will just put a fast kid at qb and run the ball all the time.

we had a uniquely bad o line that to me was a big anomaly but to others is an indictment of the system.

i think the pool of QBs up here hurts us a lot - i have to assume they're way behind just because of weather

 

[IthacaBarrel]

The large swaths of empty seats in the Dome can't help. Does a recruit visiting during a game think "I'm going to put people in these seats?" Or does he think "Jesus, these people just don't care".

I'd guess the latter.

All a function of consistent losing over the last 20 years. The only way to turn the whole thing around is to start winning consistently. It's going to take probably 3 solid seasons. 6-7 wins and bowl games. Things won't explode but they will trend in right direction. The problem is we have had two good seasons and each coach thought they had the riddle solved well the next year they came back with 5 win seasons, not so fast my friend. 2011 team was solid until destroyed by injuries which sucked and then we dropped 6-7 in a row?. I think Marrone was damn close in 2012 before he left to establishing some consistency

Until that happens nothing is really going to change. the 1-10 was a gut punch and a kick in the nether regions all at once. And the overall consistent success we had in the late 80's and nineties will most likely never return. Times have changed. We may catch a flyer every so often but I don't see back to back 10 win teams happening very often if ever

 

[Millhouse]

By the time you factor in elongated seasons in other areas as well as Spring ball (which typically includes 3 padded games) there is a significant difference in the amount of field experience that kids get in the West & South than they do in the Northeast.

Years ago, I did a comparison with a couple of coaches from Florida… Over a four year high school span, Florida players were playing roughly double the games that NY kids were playing. With playoffs it worked out to something like 36-40 games for NY kids and 72-80 games for Florida kidsThat’s significant.

Quality coaches can be found anywhere.

There are a greater number of kids to pull from in the Southeast per district as well. So your average talent level is higher. Also, the athletes down South typically have a much higher ceiling for multiple reasons.

should've read this first.

the number of reps and the self-interested coaches playing a different brand of football that works for them given the conditions

 

[Millhouse]

convert dead malls into indoor sports facilities, 7 on 7 all year round, keep the kids brains safe, get fast kids interested, go the developmental route with the big guys

 

[the villager]

Good players make good coaches.Recruiting is the path to good teams. I posted in the past about our inability to keep local players home and was given a list of reasons they went elsewhere . I didn’t think then and more so now that the effort wasn’t strong enough.

 

[dollarbill44]

Which high school? They seem awash in funds here (NoVa)

WT Woodson. Being a Fairfax County school, it was always flush with funds - we had a planetarium, ffs. But most of the athletic facilities back then got the bare minimum funding. All of the nice stuff came from fundraising. The changeover began while I was there as far as physical facilities, although I suspect the football field was partly funded by the Washington Diplomats in the early 70s when they played their home games in the stadium.