The Road Back

[kcsu]

i've used this analogy a number of times. go run a lap as fast as you can and clock it. now run 1 mile as fast as you can and check your lap times. they're slower. human body ain't a machine. it tires and slows. anyone saying they want our guys playing 40 full is actually saying i'm cool with players resting on D , taking plays off and not going 100 %. i'm not cool with that philosophy. as are most D1 coaches .

Many posters played HS ball and some played college. You cant play 40 minutes as strong as you can play with a break or two.

 

[Bayside44]

Fair enough. How about Cooney and Ennis. Not nearly as lead-footed as the older guys, but certainly not quick.

From watching the both live, although limited, Cooney seems to be a better pure athlete than Buddy. I'm still stuck on the first half of the GTown game and Buddy'y really bad footwork or curls and such that Cooney was quicker on.

 

[Cusefan0307]

From watching the both live, although limited, Cooney seems to be a better pure athlete than Buddy. I'm still stuck on the first half of the GTown game and Buddy'y really bad footwork or curls and such that Cooney was quicker on.

Cooney was terrible off the curl and for Buddy's lack of athleticism if we had him instead of Cooney on those teams we probably beat Dayton in 2014.

 

[Bayside44]

Cooney was terrible off the curl and for Buddy's lack of athleticism if we had him instead of Cooney on those teams we probably beat Dayton in 2014.

Buddy is a better shooter I won't argue there.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Have you seen many practices?
Some guys on here used to go for years and years, and write about it on this board and its predecessors.
They stayed open for a very long time, really until the Melo Center.

I'm not one of the hard core guys (and you know who they are ...), but I've seen enough practices to know some things. In my experience, practices have a lot of sameness to them. A surprising amount, really.

I think part of the advantage of keeping the system the same is to try to allow the players to play naturally on offense, and cohesively on defense. It's about moving as a group on defense, and its about running the break and running simple, but repetitive sets on offense.
They scrimmage a fair amount, as you might expect, especially if the "teaching" part of the practice is going to be mostly drills and seemingly basketball "basics".

I guess he knows what he's looking for in practice, but I think you learn more when they are scrimmaging, and even more still when they are playing in real games. That's why I think it's important to play your bench more than he has been willing to do these past few years.

A big part of it is continuity from class to class. In our glory years, we seemed to always have 3 key guys coming back from the previous year - a big who might take the next step but was reasonably decent, a guard who can either score or handle the ball (or both), and a wing who can attack on the dribble, run the break and hit the 3.

For years and years, we returned those kinds of building blocks to establish the next year's foundation.

Lately, it seems like a couple kids who we could use the next year always leave early - and gallingly, seldom get drafted! I mean, it kills your continuity, and we see what we (and much of college basketball) have become.

Just had another thought on this practice line JB keeps falling back on. I'm wondering if the second unit is expected to play/scrimmage the first unit. If so, I can understand why JB says they don't practice well. HoWash can't show out passing to the long list of non shooters playing second string.

Just a thought for Ghost.

 

[NineOneSeven]

From watching the both live, although limited, Cooney seems to be a better pure athlete than Buddy. I'm still stuck on the first half of the GTown game and Buddy'y really bad footwork or curls and such that Cooney was quicker on.

The athleticism thing isn't close. Shooting aside, do you see Buddy stealing a pass up top and then throwing down a 2 handed dunk on the break?

 

[OttoMets]

Cooney was terrible off the curl and for Buddy's lack of athleticism if we had him instead of Cooney on those teams we probably beat Dayton in 2014.

I'm so ambivalent about the Buddy situation.

On one hand, I liked his skillset last year and thought he might bridge the gap with some summer conditioning improvements and come back a significantly better player. So I'm surprised that he's still such a crazy defensive liability (like, the worst guard defender I can remember at SU) and that his hasn't made an offensive leap (his production has been more one-dimensional than I thought his skills would support, stuff like that two-dribble 15-footer he made on Tuesday should be available more often, and his passing is very limited).

On the other, and in spite of the physical disadvantage that I'll concede, I still think he's more skilled than Cooney was and I'd like to have seen him on the 2013-2016 teams.

 

[OttoMets]

The athleticism thing isn't close. Shooting aside, do you see Buddy stealing a pass up top and then throwing down a 2 handed dunk on the break?

No, I don't. That's a clear example of Cooney's physical superiority.

But I do think it's close. Beyond the wide-open dunking, I don't think the advantage is that great in a basketball context. Cooney had a very limited sort of athleticism - he could jump some, but only on the first leap and not in traffic. He was kind of quick, but not in a way that allowed him to get past a defender or get a shot off against a physical opponent. Essentially, his abstract athleticism didn't translate very well in a live game.

 

[Cusefan0307]

No, I don't. That's a clear example of Cooney's physical superiority.

But I do think it's close. Beyond the wide-open dunking, I don't think the advantage is that great in a basketball context. Cooney had a very limited sort of athleticism - he could jump some, but only on the first leap and not in traffic. He was kind of quick, but not in a way that allowed him to get past a defender or get a shot off against a physical opponent. Essentially, his abstract athleticism didn't translate very well in a live game.

Too much weightlifting imo.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Cooney was terrible off the curl and for Buddy's lack of athleticism if we had him instead of Cooney on those teams we probably beat Dayton in 2014.

I would say that Cooney ran really hard to get open, but tried too hard, so that when he came off the curl he was usually drifting and off balance on the shot. He ran too hard to square up to get a proper look at the basket. It was almost like he made shots in spite of his pre-shot "preparation".

 

[kirbivore]

I'm so ambivalent about the Buddy situation.

On one hand, I liked his skillset last year and thought he might bridge the gap with some summer conditioning improvements and come back a significantly better player. So I'm surprised that he's still such a crazy defensive liability (like, the worst guard defender I can remember at SU) and that his hasn't made an offensive leap (his production has been more one-dimensional than I thought his skills would support, stuff like that two-dribble 15-footer he made on Tuesday should be available more often, and his passing is very limited).

On the other, and in spite of the physical disadvantage that I'll concede, I still think he's more skilled than Cooney was and I'd like to have seen him on the 2013-2016 teams.

Is the biggest problem with Buddy in the zone that he knows where to be, just can't get there quick enough?

 

[OttoMets]

Is the biggest problem with Buddy in the zone that he knows where to be, just can't get there quick enough?

In my opinion, yeah. Mentally it seemed like he picked it up really quickly as a freshman. Physically he's just slow - slow to move laterally, slow to drop to defend the high post, slow to close on a shooter. He knows where the right place is, but usually a little late.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I would say that Cooney ran really hard to get open, but tried too hard, so that when he came off the curl he was usually drifting and off balance on the shot. He ran too hard to square up to get a proper look at the basket. It was almost like he made shots in spite of his pre-shot "preparation".

I think his form compared to say someone like Buddy was way too mechanical and he also did not have the same deep range. He also seemed to over jump on his shot and was very rarely taking shots in rhythm. I think the mechanical-ness was the result of too much weightlifting and not enough basketball flexibility. You rarely see guys that are jacked as great shooters. Still with his limitations he finished with around the same shooting percentage as Mali his SR year.

 

[FrancoPizza]

The athleticism thing isn't close. Shooting aside, do you see Buddy stealing a pass up top and then throwing down a 2 handed dunk on the break?

To be fair, Cooney dunked 2-handed because he had to gather himself to make the jump. He had average athleticism at best.

My biggest gripe with Buddy is his 3pt% is near 0 unless he is completely wide open. I think his inability to elevate to create room is probably part of that. It's not a good harbinger when many of his misses are not even hitting the rim.

 

[Cusefan0307]

To be fair, Cooney dunked 2-handed because he had to gather himself to make the jump. He had average athleticism at best.

My biggest gripe with Buddy is his 3pt% is near 0 unless he is completely wide open. I think his inability to elevate to create room is probably part of that. It's not a good harbinger when many of his misses are not even hitting the rim.

So he was wide open for 6 games in a row when he was averaging 20 Points before Virginia Tech???

 

[FrancoPizza]

So he was wide open for 6 games in a row when he was averaging 20 Points before Virginia Tech???

We're talking about 3pt% not points scored right? I'd also like to see his % in 1st halves when the game is still undecided. Defenses tend to back off a bit when they are up double-digits.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We're talking about 3pt% not points scored right? I'd also like to see his % in 1st halves when the game is still undecided. Defenses tend to back off a bit when they are up double-digits.

We won 4 of those 6 games and another we lost by 1. Anyone can cherry pick data to make themselves look right. That's what Townie did on his argument how Manley was soooo great.

 

[IthacaMatt]

In my opinion, yeah. Mentally it seemed like he picked it up really quickly as a freshman. Physically he's just slow - slow to move laterally, slow to drop to defend the high post, slow to close on a shooter. He knows where the right place is, but usually a little late.

I think he wouldn't seem quite so slow if he was playing 25 minutes a game instead of 35-40. We didn't think he looked this slow last year, when he was playing a more limited role.

 

[tbonezone]

Many posters played HS ball and some played college. You cant play 40 minutes as strong as you can play with a break or two.

unlike other sports such as football , soccer, baseball or even lacrosse players don't get rest breaks when the team is on offense/defense. like hockey you are expected to play both ends at full speed. can you ever imagine a hockey coach leaving his 6 best players on the ice every period ? (well the goalies get a breather) sure play gretzky all game cuz the player behind him isn't as good ? that'd be insane ! hey michael jordan avg. 31 mpg.
yet this somehow makes perfect sense to jb .

 

[realorange]

goodine and carey were both highly regarded recruits. yet apparently now can't play D1 ball.

So was Quincy. And by his own admission, and I'm using my words here, he learned to get out of his own way.

Unfortunately, talented high school players that have always done things there own way have difficulty adjusting to college play and particularly the speed it moves.

 

[Newhouser]

Cooney was terrible off the curl and for Buddy's lack of athleticism if we had him instead of Cooney on those teams we probably beat Dayton in 2014.

I recently re-watched the run against Gonzaga and UVA - Cooney made some plays for us and was infinitely better on the defensive end as compared to Buddy or Tyus. Shooting - infinitely worse ha.

 

[Red Holzman]

Don't observe practices, so don't know what the backups do to get no or very limited minutes.
If players earning 40" in practice aren't winning games, then regardless of any gap in practice performance seems worth giving the bench a shot in games.
Racking up L's anyway -therefore appears nothing to lose by giving Guerrier/Washington/Edwards more minutes to develop. If they suck sit them back down after awhile. Every game, giving them some run in 1st and 2nd half could build their confidence and help this year while developing for next.
Dunno, SU isn't playing for post-season therefore seems worth a try and, being selfish, will add to my interest level by adding something New to watch and see how it goes...

 

[tbonezone]

5-6 minutes a game makes your starters better and makes your bench better.

 

[Sherman20]

No, I don't. That's a clear example of Cooney's physical superiority.

But I do think it's close. Beyond the wide-open dunking, I don't think the advantage is that great in a basketball context. Cooney had a very limited sort of athleticism - he could jump some, but only on the first leap and not in traffic. He was kind of quick, but not in a way that allowed him to get past a defender or get a shot off against a physical opponent. Essentially, his abstract athleticism didn't translate very well in a live game.

Cooney wasn’t super quick but was much better than Buddy in the zone. He also had the highest vertical on the team.

 

[kcsu]

From watching the both live, although limited, Cooney seems to be a better pure athlete than Buddy. I'm still stuck on the first half of the GTown game and Buddy'y really bad footwork or curls and such that Cooney was quicker on.

The Coon Dog was the most prolific shooter to ever play for SU. Too bad he wasnt much of a maker. Kid hustled his Charlie off. Ran around in circles endlessly trying to shake his man. If you could combine his hustle and grit with Buddys shooting you would have a heck of a player.