The Road Back

[Orangezoo]

Good post. There is no doubt progress with Quincy and on the boards Sidibe has been impressive. I would love to see him be more consistent. If he could do for 30 minutes what he does wonderful in shorter spurts it would be huge.

The fact we can shoot gives us a shot in any game. The fact we rely on jump shooting almost completely means the margin of error is just so incredibly slim.

Defensively we are chasing more than defending. There is an open look on nearly every possession and that is certainly an athleticism issue.

The one thing the stands out the most is that we just don't have guard talent. Good shooting and grittiness sure. But talent, the kind you need where there is a blend of skill and athleticism just isn't there. Jalen coming out of HS gave us every reason to believe that was back until it wasn't and he is more a guy who gets it by year 3/4. If we can get back to having a backcourt that can truly pressure a team on both ends and have playmaking capabilities- our fortunes could change very very quickly.

 

[kidorange]

Good post. There is no doubt progress with Quincy and on the boards Sidibe has been impressive. I would love to see him be more consistent. If he could do for 30 minutes what he does wonderful in shorter spurts it would be huge.

The fact we can shoot gives us a shot in any game. The fact we rely on jump shooting almost completely means the margin of error is just so incredibly slim.

Defensively we are chasing more than defending. There is an open look on nearly every possession and that is certainly an athleticism issue.

The one thing the stands out the most is that we just don't have guard talent. Good shooting and grittiness sure. But talent, the kind you need where there is a blend of skill and athleticism just isn't there. Jalen coming out of HS gave us every reason to believe that was back until it wasn't and he is more a guy who gets it by year 3/4. If we can get back to having a backcourt that can truly pressure a team on both ends and have playmaking capabilities- our fortunes could change very very quickly.

Absolutely agree on the D chasing. Our wings are so far out to try to make up for everything Buddy and Joe can't do that it becomes a scramble after one good pass. The corners are wide open and we're weak across the baseline.

I don't get the original post saying they saw good D. Also, the scramble has to be exhausting after 40 minutes of play but exhaustion is not the biggest reason these guys shouldn't be playing 40 minutes.

 

[jec1521]

Absolutely agree on the D chasing. Our wings are so far out to try to make up for everything Buddy and Joe can't do that it becomes a scramble after one good pass. The corners are wide open and we're weak across the baseline.

I don't get the original post saying they saw good D. Also, the scramble has to be exhausting after 40 minutes of play but exhaustion is not the biggest reason these guys shouldn't be playing 40 minutes.

Wasn't the 3 pt line moved back this season? I wonder if that is making a substantial difference in our defense.

 

[chugg21]

Wasn't the 3 pt line moved back this season? I wonder if that is making a substantial difference in our defense.

It has to make a little difference and then combine it with having 2 unathletic guys up top and it turns into our current mess.

 

[OttoMets]

Sims and Cipolla is really a crummy comparison... they played 24 years ago when the game was remarkably different - much less reliance on the 3-point shot philosophically, and most teams only had a few players who even attempted shots from that distance, so defending it wasn't as difficult when you're going up against a team that has 3 or 4 guys on the floor that are capable at all times.

Fair enough. How about Cooney and Ennis. Not nearly as lead-footed as the older guys, but certainly not quick.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Wasn't the 3 pt line moved back this season? I wonder if that is making a substantial difference in our defense.

How the new 3-point line might affect college basketball

How will the new 3-point line distance affect college basketball this season? Quite a bit, if history is any indicator.

www.google.com

 

[Fly Rodder]

How the new 3-point line might affect college basketball

How will the new 3-point line distance affect college basketball this season? Quite a bit, if history is any indicator.

www.google.com

Interesting, as far as the zone goes, I wonder what is the percentage increase in area within the three point line that zone defenders now have to cover. 3-5% more area may make a lot of difference in defending passing lanes with less than average zone defenders.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Interesting, as far as the zone goes, I wonder what is the percentage increase in area within the three point line that zone defenders now have to cover. 3-5% more area may make a lot of difference in defending passing lanes with less than average zone defenders.

I was hoping I could get an article with the math already done.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

Interesting, as far as the zone goes, I wonder what is the percentage increase in area within the three point line that zone defenders now have to cover. 3-5% more area may make a lot of difference in defending passing lanes with less than average zone defenders.

Tough year for both things to happen at the same time.

 

[Orangezoo]

Wasn't the 3 pt line moved back this season? I wonder if that is making a substantial difference in our defense.

I honestly think we could be a good mtm team or at least a good multi defense team. Buddy is the primary weakness in my opinion. Joe I think would be ok. He has good instincts and is strong enough. The extended line hurts but what hurts more is most teams are able to put multiple shooters on the floor and are able to take advantage of the corners and the top of the key. It is a shooters game more than anything today. The zone doesn't not prevent a shooter from getting set, especially with having to stretch the defense further. So in turn we chase. Instead of a rotation it turns into a mad scramble to cover the open areas of the zone. Shot fakes, good shooters and quick feet are hurting us.

To stay within a pattern of trying to not disrespect the zone, I just think we have the pieces to play some good mtm D. Quincy could be a really valuable and versatile defender. In the zone he is often in unnatural positions. In mtm his rebounding could be much better. Same with Sidibe and how well he finds the ball even while out of position.

 

[IthacaMatt]

First of all, if you are of the opinion that Syracuse basketball can't possibly return to relevance until Boeheim is gone, that we are a terrible team and a shell of the program we deserve, that the effects of sanctions have been overblown, and that we will never attract quality recruits because we play zone, that there is no question that Hughes is headed to the NBA draft and that Braswell, Carey, Washington, and anyone else who plays limited minutes is on their way out the door, please stop reading this thread and find your own sandbox to piss in. I have no interest in that kind of drivel here.

Now that THAT is out of the way, to date this has certainly been one of, if not the single, most disappointing season in my almost 50 years of following Syracuse basketball. I think I allowed myself to be deluded into thinking that Guerrier was a 5 star wolf in Canadian sheep's clothing, that Goodine was the next coming of MCW, that a healthy Sidibe would be a double-double machine and that Edwards would be the next unknown European to at the very least be a serviceable part of the rotation. I did not have dreams of a Final Four or ACC upper echelon performance but thought at the very least we would see another 20+ win season and the potential to advance beyond the first weekend of the Big Dance. Well, so much for that.

I do, however, still see a road back to those levels for this program and see signs of positivity in the growth of a young squad lacking any transcendent talent. Last night I saw:

1. Some extended periods of very solid defense - as good as we've seen this year. You don't need all-world athleticism to excel in the zone. You need 5 guys who can anticipate ball movement, who almost instinctively know where their other four teammates will be at all times, understand rotations and know when to challenge the ball and when to protect other areas of the court. Our defensive failings this year are related to all of those concepts and last night, against a team that really challenges perimeter D there were extended periods where the cohesiveness started to show and we effectively shut down VT. I firmly believe this improvement will continue throughout the season and into next year.

2. Despite all the bashing, Sidibe continues to be a very effective rebounder and can shore up a major weakness if he can just eliminate mistakes and stay on the floor. 9 boards in 21 minutes is exceptional against any P5 team. And if you do the math an average of 7.7 rebounds in about 24 minutes per game extrapolates to 13 boards in 40 minutes. He certainly needs to get stronger defensively and to cut down on unforced errors but in a list of problems with this team I don't think he cracks the top 5.

3. Guerrier came through with this second strong performance in a row. It certainly seems he is starting to settle into a role, get more comfortable on the court and in his words "think less and play more." Blooming a little later than many of us expected and I'm really wondering where he would be developmentally had he been able to enroll in January 2019 as was the plan but he is starting to look the part of an impact player.

4. And let's just stop all this fake news about how playing 40 minutes leaves us exhausted at the end of a game. Think about it. An average college basketball game runs two hours. With a 2 1/2 minute break after every four minutes of play, a 15-minute halftime and numerous other timeouts or dead ball situations that means playing 40 minutes has you in motion for roughly a third of the two hours. Do you really think reducing that to 35 minutes would have a major impact? Have you ever watched an intense playground game like the ones most of these guys participate in every day of the off season? No TV timeouts or half time breaks there. JB explained it well in 1996. "I'd rather be playing John Wallace at 75% than anyone else on my roster at 100."

There will certainly be more growing pains and I'm praying we can scratch out the 9 more wins needed to ensure our consecutive winning seasons streak stays alive. And it may not come this year but I've still got a pretty strong level of confidence that brighter days are ahead.

Good post, but I disagree about premise number 4 - that players don't get tired playing 40 minutes.

The point is that other players on the other team are not playing equal minutes, and a fresh body comes off the bench to bang on our guys for 5-10 minutes a game, and we don't have the ability to do the same to the other team.

If you don't think fresh legs and the beating players take wears on them, then consider boxing. They only go for 3 minutes per round, and then they get to sit down and rest for a couple minutes. How taxing can that be, if you only go for 3 minutes at a time? /sarcasm/

It's not that the kids couldn't play 40 minutes; of course they can. But can they play at the same intensity as an opponent who plays 10-20% less minutes in the same game, while fresh players on the opposing team come in to wear you down?

 

[IthacaMatt]

I think that's a part of the story that easily gets forgotten. Not crazy to think he'd be further along if things had gone according to plan.

Re: the 40 minutes thing... people can rationalize it all they want, but yes, I do believe our players would play better going 35 minutes a game instead (and maybe Washington or Goodine give a big spark in their ten minutes or so once in a while), and the problem with the John Wallace quote is that Wallace was an all-american and an all-time great in school history, and the guys we are loading minutes onto are... not.

Actually, I think Boeheim originally used the quote about Derrick Coleman, but I wouldn't be surprised if he recycled it over the years.

 

[tbonezone]

i've used this analogy a number of times. go run a lap as fast as you can and clock it. now run 1 mile as fast as you can and check your lap times. they're slower. human body ain't a machine. it tires and slows. anyone saying they want our guys playing 40 full is actually saying i'm cool with players resting on D , taking plays off and not going 100 %. i'm not cool with that philosophy. as are most D1 coaches .

 

[IthacaMatt]

Wasn't the 3 pt line moved back this season? I wonder if that is making a substantial difference in our defense.

Yes, we have less athletic guards who have to close out just a bit farther on shooters.

 

[GardenOrange]

I can respect the opinion that a marginally fresher backcourt at the end of games would be a net positive. I just don't see that third guard on the roster right now. I've called Howard low risk; low reward and I will double down on that. His game is just too conservative for me at this point. Brycen may be the biggest disappointment on a team full of disappointments. The Carey injury gave him a huge opportunity that he failed to seize. And let's be clear. That opportunity surfaced not solely in games, but I trust that he struggled in practices as well.
What I WOULD like to see is for Quincy's role continue to grow and for Sidibe to ramp up to 30 mpg by avoiding foul trouble. Then Elijah can swing to the backcourt for 8 - 10 minutes of his 35+ and give Buddy and Joe each a brief breather.

See? I can be reasonable.

If you call the 2-5 minutes per game given Brycen as an opportunity... I dont call that an opportunity at all. He should be given time at the 2 spot instead of PG to take the pressure off a bit. We know who's minutes that eats into though... With our record and outlook now for the rest of the season, he should get 10 minutes every game. Buddy does not need to play any more than 30-34 minutes. he might be able to sink a higher percentage of 3s in the final 4 minutes of games if he wasnt totally wiped out.

 

[Consigliere]

If you call the 2-5 minutes per game given Brycen as an opportunity... I dont call that an opportunity at all. He should be given time at the 2 spot instead of PG to take the pressure off a bit. We know who's minutes that eats into though... With our record and outlook now for the rest of the season, he should get 10 minutes every game. Buddy does not need to play any more than 30-34 minutes. he might be able to sink a higher percentage of 3s in the final 4 minutes of games if he wasnt totally wiped out.

Not entirely. I count the extended time in practice sessions as the real opportunity. Pretty clear with JB that if you don't practice well, you don't play.

 

[Ghost]

Not entirely. I count the extended time in practice sessions as the real opportunity. Pretty clear with JB that if you don't practice well, you don't play.

I do think more than anything else, our biggest problem is that we recruit lots of kids that can't practice well. It's hurting the program and we are really starting to see it the past couple years.

 

[tbonezone]

Not entirely. I count the extended time in practice sessions as the real opportunity. Pretty clear with JB that if you don't practice well, you don't play.

elijah could squat and dump top of the key and still play 40.don't buy your "practice well" argument at all.

 

[Consigliere]

elijah could squat and dump top of the key and still play 40.don't buy your "practice well" argument at all.

Frankly neither your opinion, nor mine add up to that squat and dump. The guy who makes decisions makes them based on practice and I've got no standing to second guess that at all. What we have seen is 8 games where Brycen played at least 8 minutes and I can't find a single one that I can even call a minimally acceptable performance. There's a reason why a limited talent guy like Washington passed him in the pecking order.

 

[tbonezone]

good coaching get's more out of less. you seem to imply we're also getting less out of more talent wise.

 

[Consigliere]

good coaching get's more out of less. you seem to imply we're also getting less out of more talent wise.

Is that directed at me? If so I am not impying that at all! In fact, if anything it's been the opposite over the last 20 years.

 

[tbonezone]

goodine and carey were both highly regarded recruits. yet apparently now can't play D1 ball.

 

[Ghost]

Frankly neither your opinion, nor mine add up to that squat and dump. The guy who makes decisions makes them based on practice and I've got no standing to second guess that at all. What we have seen is 8 games where Brycen played at least 8 minutes and I can't find a single one that I can even call a minimally acceptable performance. There's a reason why a limited talent guy like Washington passed him in the pecking order.

I don't know - he was getting decent enough minutes prior to us playing some P5 teams. The stats are okay, and clearly was earning that time and practicing quite well. I only recall one of those games and he didn't look outclassed, but I don't recall him standing out tremendously either. I'm not going to go hard into any opinion of him as a result.

His numbers did sort of go to heck against the P5 teams, but JB pretty much said were all fantastic defensive squads, and honestly, all of our players seemed to drop off against better competition, so not sure that's isolated to Brycen.

Washington's sudden ascension possibly hurt his minutes, so I can assume he (HW) started practicing better, and Goodine fell apart a bit at practice. I would imagine when you're struggling for playing time, the margin for error at practice is razor thin. These guys have to learn to practice more better.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I don't know - he was getting decent enough minutes prior to us playing some P5 teams. The stats are okay, and clearly was earning that time and practicing quite well. I only recall one of those games and he didn't look outclassed, but I don't recall him standing out tremendously either. I'm not going to go hard into any opinion of him as a result.

His numbers did sort of go to heck against the P5 teams, but JB pretty much said were all fantastic defensive squads, and honestly, all of our players seemed to drop off against better competition, so not sure that's isolated to Brycen.

Washington's sudden ascension possibly hurt his minutes, so I can assume he (HW) started practicing better, and Goodine fell apart a bit at practice. I would imagine when you're struggling for playing time, the margin for error at practice is razor thin. These guys have to learn to practice more better.

You're doing the (practice) Lord's work.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Frankly neither your opinion, nor mine add up to that squat and dump. The guy who makes decisions makes them based on practice and I've got no standing to second guess that at all. What we have seen is 8 games where Brycen played at least 8 minutes and I can't find a single one that I can even call a minimally acceptable performance. There's a reason why a limited talent guy like Washington passed him in the pecking order.

Have you seen many practices?
Some guys on here used to go for years and years, and write about it on this board and its predecessors.
They stayed open for a very long time, really until the Melo Center.

I'm not one of the hard core guys (and you know who they are ...), but I've seen enough practices to know some things. In my experience, practices have a lot of sameness to them. A surprising amount, really.

I think part of the advantage of keeping the system the same is to try to allow the players to play naturally on offense, and cohesively on defense. It's about moving as a group on defense, and its about running the break and running simple, but repetitive sets on offense.
They scrimmage a fair amount, as you might expect, especially if the "teaching" part of the practice is going to be mostly drills and seemingly basketball "basics".

I guess he knows what he's looking for in practice, but I think you learn more when they are scrimmaging, and even more still when they are playing in real games. That's why I think it's important to play your bench more than he has been willing to do these past few years.

A big part of it is continuity from class to class. In our glory years, we seemed to always have 3 key guys coming back from the previous year - a big who might take the next step but was reasonably decent, a guard who can either score or handle the ball (or both), and a wing who can attack on the dribble, run the break and hit the 3.

For years and years, we returned those kinds of building blocks to establish the next year's foundation.

Lately, it seems like a couple kids who we could use the next year always leave early - and gallingly, seldom get drafted! I mean, it kills your continuity, and we see what we (and much of college basketball) have become.