The running game

[cuse309]

I can't believe he still isn't playing Jordan Fredricks.

 

[upperdeck]

i dont think we know much until we at least run a full set of plays.. we didnt try to stretch the field at all with runs, just the passes. hardly a toss sweep, a jet sweep, a reverse, a counter, a trap. this might explain why the D has looked in practice though if we cant really run the ball and they know what pass is coming.

 

[TheCusian]

I'm not sure on this - Money or Finwad or someone with coaching chops can correct me if I'm wrong... but I think it's not so much the run, but attacking the middle of the defense. This article is a great read on the issues we had last year: The Dino Babers offense

I think it's not a mystery as to how we beat VaTech. It was our offense with a running game - it just was with our QB running. A lot.

My questions: if we can't run up the gut with our primary RB consistently and we'd like to leave Dungey up right for the whole year - can Pierce and Elmore supply some of this stress to the D?

My guess is that Babers is going to roll with all three (RB dives, read option with Dungey, and short passes in the middle with Elmore and Pierce.)

 

[Scooch]

It's too soon for this, but is there a certain point where we just don't expect much from the running game at all?

It's not too soon. We're unlikely to run the ball well this year (aside from Dungey). We may have moments, and hopefully we get just enough to serve as a respite for the pass game. But this team's best running play is going to be a short pass.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

It's not too soon. We're unlikely to run the ball well this year (aside from Dungey). We may have moments, and hopefully we get just enough to serve as a respite for the pass game. But this team's best running play is going to be a short pass.

I agree, I was trying to play along though with the crowd that wants to be FIZZIKAL.

 

[TheCusian]

I agree, I was trying to play along though with the crowd that wants to be FIZZIKAL.

That's not what this system is... Babers wants to run right up the gut in addition to passing the crap out of the ball, just like Briles. The outside runs are screen passes. Maybe Pierce can be the short pass guy to make up for the dive not working.

But yeah - this system isn't anti-run.

 

[orangeinohio]

I agree, I was trying to play along though with the crowd that wants to be FIZZIKAL.

Who doesn't want to get physical?

 

[IthacaMatt]

It's not too soon. We're unlikely to run the ball well this year (aside from Dungey). We may have moments, and hopefully we get just enough to serve as a respite for the pass game. But this team's best running play is going to be a short pass.

This really disappoints me, because when a team throws 50 or 60 times a game, you ought to catch the defense off guard when you do run. That alone should make us better than we've looked under Babers.

I think we need to fake more outside throws then throw over the middle, and I think we have to run some counters and better scripted running plays once in a while on 2nd or 3rd down. This team should not run on first down again this year.

 

[AZOrange]

I'm not sure on this - Money or Finwad or someone with coaching chops can correct me if I'm wrong... but I think it's not so much the run, but attacking the middle of the defense. This article is a great read on the issues we had last year: The Dino Babers offense

I think it's not a mystery as to how we beat VaTech. It was our offense with a running game - it just was with our QB running. A lot.

My questions: if we can't run up the gut with our primary RB consistently and we'd like to leave Dungey up right for the whole year - can Pierce and Elmore supply some of this stress to the D?

My guess is that Babers is going to roll with all three (RB dives, read option with Dungey, and short passes in the middle with Elmore and Pierce.)

It's too bad because dungeys a good player but he ain't gonna make it all year. It's jus not his way. He had a couple plays that if he was playing a real team he would've gotten knocked out

 

[RandomGuy]

There were some holes, but I thought it just took too long for the RB to get there... I don't think you win the middle, unless you instantly hit it... There were a couple instances where the RB made it through, but was tripped up... Other times, it took long enough, the LB had long figured it out..

Really like Elmore... His play calls telegraphed where the ball was going... Not a problem if they have 3 other, not seen yet, options of that... I'll wait... You can't gimmick the run game(IMO).. I want a violent, immediate assault on the gap. I didn't see that... Laveon Bell is an anomaly.. That pause usually looses yards - IMO.

I'm hoping to see Elmore go up the middle... I think he'd get a few more yards... He's fearless, and physical - the only thing that wins the middle...

30? of 80 plays to the RB.. Many around the edge.. BIG hat tip to McGloster, on some of those...

With all the focus on tempo, it should benefit the O-line, the most... I want it up the gut. Give the big men something to rally around. Hit the hole quicker, and give it to a fearless back... The line needs work, but don't underestimate pride, the RB's need to hit it quicker, and the perhaps the scheme is not fully pushing it, just yet... I don't think Baber's scheme fully works, 'til he knows he can get those 3. It's not quite there... But McGloster has responded, Servais, too... I think Servais(6'6") earned center, because he's the most physical - to take on the nose... Hoping the new guys fit that mold... I fully expect Servais to move to LT/RT, as the line is built... Work in progress..

 

[kcsu]

There were some holes, but I thought it just took too long for the RB to get there... I don't think you win the middle, unless you instantly hit it... There were a couple instances where the RB made it through, but was tripped up... Other times, it took long enough, the LB had long figured it out..

Really like Elmore... His play calls telegraphed where the ball was going... Not a problem if they have 3 other, not seen yet, options of that... I'll wait... You can't gimmick the run game(IMO).. I want a violent, immediate assault on the gap. I didn't see that... Laveon Bell is an anomaly.. That pause usually looses yards - IMO.

I'm hoping to see Elmore go up the middle... I think he'd get a few more yards... He's fearless, and physical - the only thing that wins the middle...

30? of 80 plays to the RB.. Many around the edge.. BIG hat tip to McGloster, on some of those...

With all the focus on tempo, it should benefit the O-line, the most... I want it up the gut. Give the big men something to rally around. Hit the hole quicker, and give it to a fearless back... The line needs work, but don't underestimate pride, the RB's need to hit it quicker, and the perhaps the scheme is not fully pushing it, just yet... I don't think Baber's scheme fully works, 'til he knows he can get those 3. It's not quite there... But McGloster has responded, Servais, too... I think Servais(6'6") earned center, because he's the most physical - to take on the nose... Hoping the new guys fit that mold... I fully expect Servais to move to LT/RT, as the line is built... Work in progress..

Serve will be moved for sure as next years center will be a true frosh

 

[TheCusian]

All this talk and I'm not giving up on the run just yet. Too early.

- offense line gels
- full tempo all game
- full playbook with Elmore and Pierce
- RB gets better or we move MP up into the 1 slot

 

[sufandu]

It's too soon for this, but is there a certain point where we just don't expect much from the running game at all?

I don't think it's too soon for that to be the expectation this season.

The Babers praise of Stickland feels awfully hollow.

 

[st_machine]

looking at the play numbers on Nunes , i come up with this:

for designed run plays for rb's (not including options, or qb runs)
29 plays
21 dives
ave: 2.85 yds/dive

strickland
11 plays
10 dives
ave 3.0 yds/dive
1 non dive, 2 yds.

neal
6 plays
5 dives
ave 2.6 yds/dive
1 non-dive, 1yd

pierre
6 plays
2 dives
ave 2.4 yds/dive
non dives: 30yds, 7.5 yd/play

perkins
3 plays
3 dives
ave 2.33 yds/dive

johnson
2 plays
0 dives
ave 11.5


So Strick actually ran the dive a little better than the others.
to me, like last yr, dive L, dive R, doesn't seem too effective
...vs central conn no less
looks like a long season for fans of the run game.

disclaimer: i could have easily made some mistakes,

 

[PhatOrange]

looking at the play numbers on Nunes , i come up with this:

for designed run plays for rb's (not including options, or qb runs)
29 plays
21 dives
ave: 2.85 yds/dive

strickland
11 plays
10 dives
ave 3.0 yds/dive
1 non dive, 2 yds.

neal
6 plays
5 dives
ave 2.6 yds/dive
1 non-dive, 1yd

pierre
6 plays
2 dives
ave 2.4 yds/dive
non dives: 30yds, 7.5 yd/play

perkins
3 plays
3 dives
ave 2.33 yds/dive

johnson
2 plays
0 dives
ave 11.5


So Strick actually ran the dive a little better than the others.
to me, like last yr, dive L, dive R, doesn't seem too effective
...vs central conn no less
looks like a long season for fans of the run game.

disclaimer: i could have easily made some mistakes,

I (think) I remember a toss sweep to Strickland and he could’ve made the endzone if he kept going outside. Instead he cut it back inside against the pressure and was dropped. That might’ve been the 2 yarder. In my mind, it basically epitomizes his RB skills.

 

[SWC75]

i dont think we know much until we at least run a full set of plays.. we didnt try to stretch the field at all with runs, just the passes. hardly a toss sweep, a jet sweep, a reverse, a counter, a trap. this might explain why the D has looked in practice though if we cant really run the ball and they know what pass is coming.

I think there would less concern if we hadn't seen the same thing all last year.

 

[upperdeck]

last year the oline was sitting in the backfield half the time.. at least for 1 game they were not getting blown up.. that may all change by week 4. Last week it seemed like they were just a bit unsure of when to hand off guys, still would have liked to at least see 3-4 plays get to the 2nd level cleanly. When i re-watched they seem happy to just brush block too much but when the actually took the time to make a block they were fine, it didnt seem like they were all on the same page though.

I couldnt even get a real feel for if it was even the same guy, it seemed more like the 5 oline guys each handled their guy ok but there was always a free guy right where the hole expected to be. I am not smart enough to tell if that is a blocking issue, an assignment issue mistake, a mistake by the RB in calling out the blocking, a run scheme issue, a qb issue with the play call or sometimes it was just good D. the fact that it was consistently just blah almost every play is concerning, but I think we find out this week more than last week.

two 2-3 yd runs and 3rd and 5 in this offense is better than two zero yd runs and 3rd and 10.. Someday we get to the point were 3rd and 3 we feel confident in the running game, but that still seems a long way off.

 

[TheCusian]

last year the oline was sitting in the backfield half the time.. at least for 1 game they were not getting blown up.. that may all change by week 4. Last week it seemed like they were just a bit unsure of when to hand off guys, still would have liked to at least see 3-4 plays get to the 2nd level cleanly. When i re-watched they seem happy to just brush block too much but when the actually took the time to make a block they were fine, it didnt seem like they were all on the same page though.

I couldnt even get a real feel for if it was even the same guy, it seemed more like the 5 oline guys each handled their guy ok but there was always a free guy right where the hole expected to be. I am not smart enough to tell if that is a blocking issue, an assignment issue mistake, a mistake by the RB in calling out the blocking, a run scheme issue, a qb issue with the play call or sometimes it was just good D. the fact that it was consistently just blah almost every play is concerning, but I think we find out this week more than last week.

two 2-3 yd runs and 3rd and 5 in this offense is better than two zero yd runs and 3rd and 10.. Someday we get to the point were 3rd and 3 we feel confident in the running game, but that still seems a long way off.

I agree. I think they are really confident in a 3rd and 5, that they'll pick it up (and then go for it, on 4th and 1) via passing or by ED running.

I think we need the LB's and S thinking about the inside runs. Too many stops by DL last year...

 

[reedny]

If we're searching for thunder and lightning, the obvious candidates to me would be Elmore and N. Johnson. Pierre might have some of both. Regardless, why is DS carrying the rock so often?

 

[HtownOrange]

Just a simple take, the running game is vanilla for many reasons already stated: O-Line personnel not used to each other, RB's not being patient for opening, RBs not seeing the holes, etc. I also think that HCDB kept the running game vanilla to hold back on what they can actually do and to give the guys more time to adjust to the D1 level. I am not as concerned as I was last season. Let teams focus on stopping the run, this offense will score, and do so fast. Once teams focus on stopping the pass, the run game will open up. And no, I don't think we are ready to run all over Clemson, but on any given Saturday...

Remember that HCDB's offense is an opportunistic offense and is designed to make final call on run/pass at the line, once the O sees what the defense scheme is. I think that most opponents are still skeptical of HCDB's offense and will make the Orange beat them with the pass for another year or two.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

looking at the play numbers on Nunes , i come up with this:

for designed run plays for rb's (not including options, or qb runs)
29 plays
21 dives
ave: 2.85 yds/dive

strickland
11 plays
10 dives
ave 3.0 yds/dive
1 non dive, 2 yds.

neal
6 plays
5 dives
ave 2.6 yds/dive
1 non-dive, 1yd

pierre
6 plays
2 dives
ave 2.4 yds/dive
non dives: 30yds, 7.5 yd/play

perkins
3 plays
3 dives
ave 2.33 yds/dive

johnson
2 plays
0 dives
ave 11.5


So Strick actually ran the dive a little better than the others.
to me, like last yr, dive L, dive R, doesn't seem too effective
...vs central conn no less
looks like a long season for fans of the run game.

disclaimer: i could have easily made some mistakes,

Nice breakdown. I believe that more of Pierre's run plays were dives, he just had the vision to bounce it to an outside hole for decent gains whereas Strick & Neal did not/have yet to demonstrate such vision consistently.

 

[007]

If we're searching for thunder and lightning, the obvious candidates to me would be Elmore and N. Johnson. Pierre might have some of both. Regardless, why is DS carrying the rock so often?

How would N Johnson be an "obvious candidate" at running back? He played WR and CB in HS.

 

[reedny]

How would N Johnson be an "obvious candidate" at running back? He played WR and CB in HS.

I'm not suggesting a traditional RB role for him, so it doesn't matter if he was the ball boy in HS. The kid is in a different gear than everyone else on the field. We can give the rock to DS for 2.5 yards. Or we can create something for bottled lightning ... toss sweeps, reverses, counters, screens to get him in open space ... whatever. He's insanely quick. It's the first game, I know ... but our running game looks anemic.

 

[upperdeck]

Assuming the running game doesnt cost us the next 2 i think we have to wait until LSU/ncst/Pitt games to make a decision on whether its improved.. We could be avg 6 yds a carry the first 3 and still not know and LSU might shut is down just like BYU if they are as good as people think.

 

[sutomcat]

I watched the game again (most of it anyway), to try and see what went wrong with the running game. I went into the season thinking the str3ngth of the OL was going to be the interior 3 but on Friday, it looked like the tackles were our best blockers. Conway looked pretty solid and McGloster was a revelation. He was actually featured as a blocker on some bubble screens thrown to his side of the field and he showed surprising speed getting outside to lay out blocks.

Focusing on the inside running plays in particular, I thought Servais was okay at center, Heckel not very impressive and Evan Adams was consistently bad holding their blocks. The RBs, with the exception of Pierce, seemed indecisive. Based on what t saw Friday, I am guessing the Roberts injury opened a spot for Adams. I would not be surprised if Byrne gets a chance at RG in place of Adams Saturday.

A few other comments:

Neal was horrific attempting to pass block. Not very effective running it either. I think he is best suited to getting the ball in space playing in the slot and hope the staff uses him there more the rest of the season.

Cole might have lost the PK job to Sterling, but The Hof missed a short FG too. Sad how bad our PK production has been. Only a couple good years in the last 10, and it seems our kickers get worse each year they spend in the program. Murphy and Krautman soecidically. Not good.

I thought Bennett played really well, filling in at two positions. Thought Valdez looked inpresssive in limited minutes and KW looked good too. Thomas better watch out or he is going to be Wally Pipped. Franklin was solid too and looks really jacked.

Slayton dominated the LOS al game long and looked amazing. Big drop off with the other DTa. Really liked what I saw from Robinson, who looks like an impact pass rusher from day one. Coleman and Black both had their moments and look improved.

Fredericks had a solid game and continues to amass substantial playing time while avoiding major gaffes.

Thought Jordan Martin did really well filling in for Cordy at FS. Thought it was bizarre to move him to FS; if he was going to be moved from CB, SS was where we needed him more. But it turns out the move to FS was a great call. Well done staff.

Speaking of safeties, props to Foster for having a good game. Thought he was late on support on their one TD pass but he made some good reads and made a great play to almost get a pick.

The defense was a whole looked fast and well coached. Very different from last season, which is a very good thing indeed. Middle Tennessee State will be a better test on Saturday. Hope they are up to the challenge.