The Three "Take" Fouls at the End....

[Dave]

Let some time run down, THEN foul.

It’s endgame 101.

We keep failing a lot of hoops basics.
Which is a not great look for a team with a HOF coach.

Glad it didn’t bite us in the collective arse. This time.

Ummm….and if the player with the ball passes it when the optimal time to foul has come? It’s dangerous to wait. It’s dangerous to foul off the ball. It’s hard to catch up to the ball for the foul. A good shot can go up. This is a bunch of people who have never coached thinking they can coach.

 

[Consigliere]

Went from 13.7 to 7 seconds using the three fouls to give. Went from a team falling apart to what may very well be a Q1 win on the road, and we still find a way to be negative? I give up.

And every one of those fouls other than the first was committed when ND turned and moved toward the basket. Perfectly executed

 

[Cuseball]

Went from 13.7 to 7 seconds using the three fouls to give. Went from a team falling apart to what may very well be a Q1 win on the road, and we still find a way to be negative? I give up.

And every one of those fouls other than the first was committed when ND turned and moved toward the basket. Perfectly executed

People are going to complain about everything. Q1 win on the road against a tea. That just blew out top 20 MSU while we got our doors blown off. Great bounce back game to try and salvage the season. Really good defense, really good subbing by JB and excellent coaching (totally out out coaches Brey who had the better team and at home). Are we great team…no. Should be nothing to complain about today though

 

[SWC75]

Is it possible they were told to get rid of those fouls so that if we missed and didn't the rebound, we could put them on the line immediately with time left to score if the missed the 1 and 1?

Would it be better if we eliminated the 7 and 10 foul rules and treated all fouls the same?

 

[ADKDave]

Just awful coaching on those. Used up all three fouls and only got 2 to 3 secs off the clock. ND guys were just standing there with the ball when we fouled. No reason to foul until the ball started to move. Could have let a lot more time come off the clock. We ended up having to defend for 7 seconds, guys did a great job on that last ND possession, but most of those 7 secs should have been don

Went from 13.7 to 7 seconds using the three fouls to give. Went from a team falling apart to what may very well be a Q1 win on the road, and we still find a way to be negative? I give up.

And every one of those fouls other than the first was committed when ND turned and moved toward the basket. Perfectly executed

Couldn’t agree more. How about the fact we had 3 to give???

 

[Doc5120]

Interesting that young players who spend most of their time doing individual drills with “trainers” and running up and down pressing and barreling to the hole in AAU ball have zero idea how to play situations.

You hit the nail on the head. On the whole, basketball is not taught the way it needs to be. This is something so basic that was completely botched.

 

[kcsu]

Its really hard to handle that well. I thought we did a good job.

 

[Niastri]

Its really hard to handle that well. I thought we did a good job.

It worked out ok, but it could have cost us the game. It is a rare situation, but it does come up once in a while.

In the end, I think JB was concerned about giving his young guys too much to think about and just said "foul as soon as you can."

 

[Lax2020]

oh it truly was...what I'm saying is I was waiting for the "home cooking".
Would have been one of those phantom contact calls...

If that happened I would be buying a new TV on Monday !

 

[jsshap]

I have no idea what the coaches told the team. You seem to. Lip reader?

I would have loved for them to allow a few more seconds to run off the clock before fouling but I can think of reasons why they might have told them to foul as soon as they had a chance. Others have mentioned the possible reasons in this thread.

I would have hated if they waited and missed the chance entirely. I've watched many games where the defensive team was unable to get the foul. If that happened, it might have turned out worse. Who knows.

Good grief. Either he told them to foul immediately or did not tell them one way or the another which would be even worse. Missed the chance entirely?!? We are talking about waiting 2-3 more seconds. I’ve probably posted <10 negative comments on JB in my life but as one poster said this is end game 101 stuff. And it could have easily cost them the game.

 

[dollarbill44]

Give me a break. You'd probably complain that the giant fake check for winning the lottery wasn't big enough.

 

[JoeSU]

It worked out ok, but it could have cost us the game. It is a rare situation, but it does come up once in a while.

In the end, I think JB was concerned about giving his young guys too much to think about and just said "foul as soon as you can."

... and before they can be in the act of shooting.

 

[bozophobe]

Boeheim's strategy seems completely reasonable. I think he and many of us would be shocked, if told at that moment (when there were three fouls to give with under 14 seconds), that he would get his three whistle blows, but at an average of about 2 seconds in. That seems strangely convenient, given how many times over the decades we've seen several seconds or more pass before a foul was called, or not at all, when trying to foul. His situation probably felt like a beautiful luxury. A pass out of the harassment would have been dangerous, as others have said, but the increasing pressure and sense of desperation was on ND.

 

[upperdeck]

Better to foul a bit too early than a bit too late and leave it in the hands of the ref.. Also fouling moves the inbounds all over the court so any plays ND wants to run get changed. getting to the 1-1 is also a good thing. If the perfect time to foul was so easy everyone would it right every time and they dont.

 

[jsshap]

Better to foul a bit too early than a bit too late and leave it in the hands of the ref.. Also fouling moves the inbounds all over the court so any plays ND wants to run get changed. getting to the 1-1 is also a good thing. If the perfect time to foul was so easy everyone would it right every time and they dont.

I realize in the broader discussion of whether and when to foul there are nuances, risk, different schools of thought etc but this was not that. The only question here was whether the players should be able to exercise just a modicum of judgement as to whether they can pause for another second or two before fouling. They could have easily had the clock down to 3-4 seconds rather than 7 with no additional risk and without asking the players to make a very difficult judgement. And that would have been meaningful.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

I realize in the broader discussion of whether and when to foul there are nuances, risk, different schools of thought etc but this was not that. The only question here was whether the players should be able to exercise just a modicum of judgement as to whether they can pause for another second or two before fouling. They could have easily had the clock down to 3-4 seconds rather than 7 with no additional risk and without asking the players to make a very difficult judgement. And that would have been meaningful.

Completely agree. Watching it live I had the same thought.

 

[shermstheman]

I realize in the broader discussion of whether and when to foul there are nuances, risk, different schools of thought etc but this was not that. The only question here was whether the players should be able to exercise just a modicum of judgement as to whether they can pause for another second or two before fouling. They could have easily had the clock down to 3-4 seconds rather than 7 with no additional risk and without asking the players to make a very difficult judgement. And that would have been meaningful.

Disagree. You really run the risk of fouling while someone’s shooting if you wait. Yes, it’d be nice to wait a little longer but that comes at a risk. The shot they got was contested and at the buzzer. Well done.

 

[Niastri]

Disagree. You really run the risk of fouling while someone’s shooting if you wait. Yes, it’d be nice to wait a little longer but that comes at a risk. The shot they got was contested and at the buzzer. Well done.

Giving no chance for our poor rebounding to cost us the game was a big win... The shot wasn't a low percentage one, really could have cost us. Another two seconds and they probably don't get such a good look. Splitting hairs at this point, though.

 

[OmahaCuse]

ND has to work the ball around not a lot of guys who can ISO. Thought we played it well. Would liked to see Brown, Hima and Copeland at least get a few minutes.

 

[benjams77]

Just awful coaching on those. Used up all three fouls and only got 2 to 3 secs off the clock. ND guys were just standing there with the ball when we fouled. No reason to foul until the ball started to move. Could have let a lot more time come off the clock. We ended up having to defend for 7 seconds, guys did a great job on that last ND possession, but most of those 7 secs should have been unnecessary.

You don't want to foul with a player facing the basket or with any momentum to the basket cause then you risk getting a shooting foul. It wasn't perfect but I wouldn't call it awful coaching. They still used up some time and probably took enough so thier was no time for an OREB put back.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

The only question here was whether the players should be able to exercise just a modicum of judgement as to whether they can pause for another second or two before fouling.

No. No they shouldn’t .

 

[Col. Bleep]

We have to take a step back when we look at the situation.

My first thought was the same as others...why are we fouling so quickly?
But I'm guessing the thing Boeheim told his young team them is FOUL BEFORE THEY CAN SHOOT.
AVOID A SHOOTING FOUL AT ALL COSTS!
And they did.

It didn't appear to me though that the fouler were always going for the ball.
Who knows you could get a tie up or loose ball.

Also smart move to put Torrence in for the final stand.

 

[Dave]

Well since 2 instances were cited and one just happened a few hours ago…do you honestly disagree that it was bad coaching under the circumstances to instruct the team to foul immediately without regard to where the player was on the court or how close they were to being able to shoot? That’s not debatable.

Yes. I honestly disagree. You are simply incorrect.

 

[swish7]

Just awful coaching on those. Used up all three fouls and only got 2 to 3 secs off the clock. ND guys were just standing there with the ball when we fouled. No reason to foul until the ball started to move. Could have let a lot more time come off the clock. We ended up having to defend for 7 seconds, guys did a great job on that last ND possession, but most of those 7 secs should have been unnecessary.b

I agree that that was poorly executed. Not sure if that is on JB or the players. Ultimately, it has to fall on JB.

In the end, the shooter got off a good shot, that came really close, and that is precisely what they needed to avoid.