The Upside and the Downside of Trevor Cooney

[SWC75]

The controversy over Jim Boeheim's comments on Tyler Roberson have morphed into a debate over Trevor Cooney on the local airwaves and I've heard some things that require comment.

Roberson played 24 minutes, went 0 for 1 from the field, never got to the line, didn't score, pulled down 4 rebounds, had 2 assists and a steal. He never turned the ball over but committed two fouls. He had 4 "net points. Jim Boeheim said he expected more from a guy late in his junior year. He also criticized the teams shooting, saying that we can't win unless we make shots. That was obviously about Malachi Richardson, who went 1 for 10 from the field, including 0 for 6 from the three point arc and Trevor Cooney, who was 1 for 9 and 1 for 7, respectively. People wondered why Boeheim didn't single out Cooney, a 5th year senior who has been inconsistent throughout his career, has been here two years longer than Roberson and had arguably an even worse game: 3 points, 0 rebounds, (even though at a strong 6-4, he's a big guard), 1 assists, 1 steal, 8 missed field goals, (he didn't get to the line, either, a turnover and 2 fouls. That's -6NP. If we expected more than Roberson did as a junior, shouldn't we expect even more from a fifth year senior?

Fans complain coaches have favorites and whipping boys, but so do we. We often seem to have popular players who can do no wrong in our eyes and other players who receive little credit for their achievements but plenty of blame for their misplays. Scoop Jardine was like that but many people realized when he was finished that he's had a highly productive career and was a key player on some of our best teams. Craig Forth was like that, even though he was the center on our national championship team and and certainly helped us win that title. These players are the most criticized player but also the most defended players, specifically because they are so criticized. and naturally, we tend to overdo both.

I was listening to Orange Nation yesterday and today and Infante and Maneen were on overdrive defending Cooney. Some had called in and said that he's had a "bad career" and Steve and Sal cited some statistics to defend Cooney, using what Bill James called the "Let's Make a Club" method: run together a series of career stats and see who else matched or exceeded those numbers. They used this to put Cooney in a club with GMAC, the Pearl and even Sherman Douglas. Somebody said that the difference between Cooney and Douglas was that Sherman had better players playing around him. James' point was that you can belong to such a 'club' and still be the worst player in that club, maybe by far the worst. Steve and Sal also kept hammering the spike that Cooney is the one team the defense always keys on and so that makes his job harder. I finally had to turn it off.

Trevor Cooney is a big, strong guard who can shoot form outside and also drive into the defense. He has some passing ability. His greatest skill is actually playing the passing lanes and stealing the ball. He might be the bets I've ever seen at that. He's mediocre, however at the top of the zone. We've given up too much penetration in his time here. he's not the disruptive force Andy Rautins was there. When the other team gets an open three pointer, he's often the one who was supposed to be guarding that spot. As I right this, Brent Axe is defending him, saying among other things that anyone who has been in that locker room knows that he's been a leader on this team and has the respect of his teammates. I have no reason to doubt that.

Brent also said that the expectations that he would be a great outside shooter was just a case of the fans building up unrealistic expectations. But it wasn't just the fans. Brent actually quoted GMAC as saying that he thought Cooney was the best shooter he'd ever seen. I remember Dion Waiters saying "he never misses". Cooney has started for three years for the reason JB gave for playing Roberson: he was the best outside shooter we had and it certainly is true that he was targeted by the defense. But that's true of any of our top players. If you are truly a good player, you find a way to fight your way through that to get your numbers anyway. Look at Michael Gbinije. Some games he's very efficient and has great numbers. Some games she struggles because he's facing a tough defensive team But he's reached double figures in every game this year. And if he's having trouble scoring, it doesn't prevent him from getting rebounds, assists and steals. Cooney can drive to the basket to score or dish for baskets. He could hit pull-up jumpers or just set closer to the basket. But he doesn't do those thing, at least not enough. He's got the size, strength and athletic ability to be a good finisher but he isn't one.

And this was supposed to be his big year because we finally got some other outside shooters to take the pressure off of him. Gbinije, Richardson, Lydon. I think he's gotten by far the most open shots of his career and yet his over-all field goal percentage has gone from .404 to .359 to .342 in the last three years. His three point percentage was .375, then collapsed to .309 and has now risen but to only .356. Thinking back to our other primary outside shooters: Shumpert, MacNamara, Nichols, Southerland, I think Cooney has missed more open jumpers that would have tied a game or given the lead that the rest of them combined. He's had the occasional big games but those games, (including his 19 point 5 three pointer game vs. Louisville), make games like the Pitt game all the harder to take.

It should be understood that outside shooting is the basketball skill that is the hardest to do consistently. Steve and Sal quoted this number: Cooney has had at least three three pointers in 14 games this year " half the team's games". But if you perform your primary function with the team adequately only half the time as a 5th year senior, I do think that is disappointing.

 

[djcon57]

The idea that teams this year "KEY" on Cooney over Richardson is so laughable that the second someone says that...it's over. It's not worth the discussion or debate.

 

[HRE Otto IV]

Teams don't key in on Cooney. The guy gets plenty of open looks and misses them. That is an excuse made from his fanboys. He can't do anything out on the court. Have we had a worse starter in the last 20 years?

 

[SoBeCuse]

Great post. I like Trevor. Nice kid, hard worker, etc. He has definitely had some great moments here.

My personal opinion is that the coaches have failed Cooney in terms of providing him and the team with adequate backcourt help. There haven't been other options in almost 2.5 years now. That's crazy. He's forced to play too many minutes, I think the staff knows this, and I think he is almost given a 'free pass' somewhat. I mean Boeheim came out after the season ended to Dayton by saying (paraphrasing) that Ennis/Cooney playing all those minutes was too much.

When he's on fire from three he can really light it up. I just feel like he's in over his head sometimes when he tries to drive and finish. I also think his passing should be better. Numerous times this year he could've made the extra pass to a teammate for a better shot. Hopefully he ends his career on a high note down the stretch here.

 

[br801]

I hope Cooney receives the warm reception he deserves on Senior Day and finishes out his SU career on a high note in the NCAAT. I will miss his dedication to the program and his efforts on the court. I won't miss the many threads like these, however.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Great post. I like Trevor. Nice kid, hard worker, etc. He has definitely had some great moments here.

My personal opinion is that the coaches have failed Cooney in terms of providing him and the team with adequate backcourt help. There haven't been other options in almost 2.5 years now. That's crazy. He's forced to play too many minutes, I think the staff knows this, and I think he is almost given a 'free pass' somewhat. I mean Boeheim came out after the season ended to Dayton by saying (paraphrasing) that Ennis/Cooney playing all those minutes was too much.

When he's on fire from three he can really light it up. I just feel like he's in over his head sometimes when he tries to drive and finish. I also think his passing should be better. Numerous times this year he could've made the extra pass to a teammate for a better shot. Hopefully he ends his career on a high note down the stretch here.

Great post. I think he would of produced better here with a legit point guard. Unfortunately missing on Joseph is just killing us.

His 3pt percentage this year is actually higher than GMACs junior and senior year. I know GMAC will always have the Kansas game and 4 days in NY, but GMACs percentages were pretty much the same across the board and he had more help for three years.

 

[DonLightfoot]

I am like a lot of members on here wherein I have always given Trevor some slack due to the effort he puts out. Granted, that "effort" does not always relate to "results" which is where the frustration builds up. I would certainly not put him into the "shooting" class of some of the previous players mentioned above. Yes, on some nights he can shoot the "lights out", but there is a lack of consistency.

To summarize, I will not dispute people who criticize his results, but would jump in on anybody questioning the effort. Just my two cents worth.

 

[CuseFaninVT]

The controversy over Jim Boeheim's comments on Tyler Roberson have morphed into a debate over Trevor Cooney on the local airwaves and I've heard some things that require comment.

Roberson played 24 minutes, went 0 for 1 from the field, never got to the line, didn't score, pulled down 4 rebounds, had 2 assists and a steal. He never turned the ball over but committed two fouls. He had 4 "net points. Jim Boeheim said he expected more from a guy late in his junior year. He also criticized the teams shooting, saying that we can't win unless we make shots. That was obviously about Malachi Richardson, who went 1 for 10 from the field, including 0 for 6 from the three point arc and Trevor Cooney, who was 1 for 9 and 1 for 7, respectively. People wondered why Boeheim didn't single out Cooney, a 5th year senior who has been inconsistent throughout his career, has been here two years longer than Roberson and had arguably an even worse game: 3 points, 0 rebounds, (even though at a strong 6-4, he's a big guard), 1 assists, 1 steal, 8 missed field goals, (he didn't get to the line, either, a turnover and 2 fouls. That's -6NP. If we expected more than Roberson did as a junior, shouldn't we expect even more from a fifth year senior?

Fans complain coaches have favorites and whipping boys, but so do we. We often seem to have popular players who can do no wrong in our eyes and other players who receive little credit for their achievements but plenty of blame for their misplays. Scoop Jardine was like that but many people realized when he was finished that he's had a highly productive career and was a key player on some of our best teams. Craig Forth was like that, even though he was the center on our national championship team and and certainly helped us win that title. These players are the most criticized player but also the most defended players, specifically because they are so criticized. and naturally, we tend to overdo both.

I was listening to Orange Nation yesterday and today and Infante and Maneen were on overdrive defending Cooney. Some had called in and said that he's had a "bad career" and Steve and Sal cited some statistics to defend Cooney, using what Bill James called the "Let's Make a Club" method: run together a series of career stats and see who else matched or exceeded those numbers. They sued this to put Cooney in a club with GMAC, the Pearl and even Sherman Douglas. Somebody said that the difference between Cooney and Douglas was that Sherman had better player playing around him. Steve and Sal kept hammering the spike that Cooney is the one team the defense always keys on and so that makes his job harder. I finally had to turn it off.

Trevor Cooney is a big, strong guard who can shoot form outside and also drive into the defense. He has some passing ability. His greatest skill is actually playing the passing lanes and stealing the ball. He might be the bets I've ever seen at that. He's mediocre, however at the top of the zone. We've given up too much penetration in his time here. he's not the disruptive force Andy Rautins was there. When the other team gets an open three pointer, he's often the one who was supposed to be guarding that spot. As I right this, Brent Axe is defending him, saying among other things that anyone who has been in that locker room knows that he's been a leader on this team and has the respect of his teammates. I have no reason to doubt that.

Brent also said that the expectations that he would be a great outside shooter was just a case of the fans building up unrealistic expectations. But it wasn't just the fans. Brent actually quoted GMAC as saying that he thought Cooney was the best shooter he'd ever seen. I remember Dion Waiters saying "he never misses". Cooney has started for three years for the reason JB gave for playing Roberson: he was the best outside shooter we had and it certainly is true that he was targeted by the defense. But that's true of any of our top players. If you are truly a good player, you find a way to fight your way through that to get your numbers anyway. Look at Michael Gbinije. Some games he's very efficient and has great numbers. Some games she struggles because he's facing a tough defensive team But he's reached double figures in every game this year. And if he's having trouble scoring, it doesn't prevent him from getting rebounds, assists and steals. Cooney can drive to the basket to score or dish for baskets. He could hit pull-up jumpers or just set closer to the basket. But he doesn't do those thing, at least not enough. He's got the size, strength and athletic ability to be a good finisher but he isn't one.

And this was supposed to be his big year because we finally got some other outside shooters to take the pressure off of him. Gbinije, Richardson, Lydon. I think he's gotten by far the most open shots of his career and yet his over-all field goal percentage has gone from .404 to .359 to .342 in the last three years. His three point percentage was .375, then collapsed to .309 and has now risen but to only .356. Thinking back to our other primary outside shooters: Shumpert, MacNamara, Nichols, Southerland, I think Cooney has missed more open jumpers that would have tied a game or given the lead that the rest of them combined. He's had the occasional big games but those games, (including his 19 point 5 three pointer game vs. Louisville), make games like the Pitt game all the harder to take.

It should be understood that outside shooting is the basketball skill that is the hardest to do consistently. Steve and Sal quoted this number: Cooney has had at least three three pointers in 14 games this year " half the team's games". But if you perform your primary function with the team adequately only half the time as a 5th year senior, I do think that is disappointing.

Very much the way I see Cooney, especially his defense. His inability to pass to big men is also very frustrating. Hard worker but not a great player by any stretch.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Great post. I think he would of produced better here with a legit point guard. Unfortunately missing on Joseph is just killing us.

His 3pt percentage this year is actually higher than GMACs junior and senior year. I know GMAC will always have the Kansas game and 4 days in NY, but GMACs percentages were pretty much the same across the board and he had more help for three years.

Missing on Patterson as well.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

"Trevor Cooney is a big, strong guard who can shoot form outside and also drive into the defense."

He sure can. He's great at driving the ball into the defense and then getting packed or duffing an awkward angle layup attempt.
Taking the ball to the rim is only half the battle.

Forget everything else about TC, the aspect of his game that I cannot stand, and that he has TOTAL control over, is his selfish 1 on 3 drives on pseudofast breaks were he almost NEVER passes the ball.

There have been several times this year where a simple pass would have resulted in an easy dunk, yet he is unwilling to give up the rock.

 

[Ghost]

I would imagine Cooney is probably just about the worst overall player in Syracuse modern-history to start more than 60 games - or 50, maybe 40....Oh well, someone always has to finish last - being the worst at Syracuse is hardly a bad thing. We're a great program.

People trump up his steal stats, but per 40 minutes they are incredibly pedestrian for a Syracuse guard. It would be near impossible for a guard in our zone not to get as many steals as TC - and not be Top 10 in conference. It's just the nature of the zone. It sucks for rebounding, but if you're a starting guard, welcome to the Top 10 in steals!

That doesn't mean he won't catch fire and lead us to NCAA glory though. He has that in him, and it'd be sweet redemption for a good kid who has had an oft-criticized career. It's all about match-ups in the tourney anyway - maybe we get a couple SEC teams, 'Nova as 1 seed, and boom, Final Four! Cooney becomes legend! You never know.

I would expect the reverse of Roberson is true when it comes to JB's criticism of TC. He criticizes Roberson because he could probably practice better, or play better, and JB knows this. He wants more out of him - and he feels there is more to give. That's probably frustrating as hell for him - so he lets loose on him.

With Cooney, what are you going to do? I have ZERO doubt that he gives 100% in practice, 100% in games, and does pretty much what JB says 93% of the time. The 7% accounts for the mistakes that every single player will make. What would be the purpose of lighting him up in a presser? You reward that kid with kind words - he played great defense!!! Did he? I don't know, he probably played good defense. He usually does.

When he shoots well, you single him out for shooting well too.

You call the kid out - where does it get you? You're not going to get a better effort out of Cooney - he's all effort all the time. A warrior. He's just not very good for this level. He's a P5 talent, but because of recruiting misses, and JB's reluctance to give less "dependable" or consistent options a chance (Patterson, Johnson - and I'm not sure I go to far down the road either) to develop, you get tons of TC for three years. This is probably the only year where he's a 20 minute per game type player. Which is cool.

Sooooo, no reason to single him out. It's like when JB gives that example about Rony Seikaly griping that JB never criticized Stevie Thompson, and JB said fine, "Stevie, stop doing what I tell you to do. Stop trying so hard." He probably sees no reason to be critical of Cooney, I'm not sure I do either.

Kid did every single thing the coaches asked him to do - it's hard to hate on him for that.

 

[Shark58]

g's a "she"?

 

[SWC75]

I would imagine Cooney is probably just about the worst overall player in Syracuse modern-history to start more than 60 games - or 50, maybe 40...Oh well, someone always has to finish last - being the worst at Syracuse is hardly a bad thing. We're a great program.

People trump up his steal stats, but per 40 minutes they are incredibly pedestrian for a Syracuse guard. It would be near impossible for a guard in our zone not to get as many steals as TC - and not be Top 10 in conference. It's just the nature of the zone. It sucks for rebounding, but if you're a starting guard, welcome to the Top 10 in steals!

That doesn't mean he won't catch fire and lead us to NCAA glory though. He has that in him, and it'd be sweet redemption for a good kid who has had an oft-criticized career. It's all about match-ups in the tourney anyway - maybe we get a couple SEC teams, 'Nova as 1 seed, and boom, Final Four! Cooney becomes legend! You never know.

I would expect the reverse of Roberson is true when it comes to JB's criticism of TC. He criticizes Roberson because he could probably practice better, or play better, and JB knows this. He wants more out of him - and he feels there is more to give. That's probably frustrating as hell for him - so he lets loose on him.

With Cooney, what are you going to do? I have ZERO doubt that he gives 100% in practice, 100% in games, and does pretty much what JB says 93% of the time. The 7% accounts for the mistakes that every single player will make. What would be the purpose of lighting him up in a presser? You reward that kid with kind words - he played great defense!!! Did he? I don't know, he probably played good defense. He usually does.

When he shoots well, you single him out for shooting well too.

You call the kid out - where does it get you? You're not going to get a better effort out of Cooney - he's all effort all the time. A warrior. He's just not very good for this level. He's a P5 talent, but because of recruiting misses, and JB's reluctance to give less "dependable" or consistent options a chance (Patterson, Johnson - and I'm not sure I go to far down the road either) to develop, you get tons of TC for three years. This is probably the only year where he's a 20 minute per game type player. Which is cool.

Sooooo, no reason to single him out. It's like when JB gives that example about Rony Seikaly griping that JB never criticized Stevie Thompson, and JB said fine, "Stevie, stop doing what I tell you to do. Stop trying so hard." He probably sees no reason to be critical of Cooney, I'm not sure I do either.

Kid did every single thing the coaches asked him to do - it's hard to hate on him for that.

Now there's a great post. Boeheim criticizes Roberson because he thinks he can do more than he's doing. He doesn't criticize Cooney because what we've seen is what we're going to get. it makes plenty of sense.

 

[rrlbees]

Oh look, another bash Cooney thread.

Not worth commenting on any of it since it appears some people still don't know how the zone is played. And I don't think anyone has listened to JB or opposing coaches at all. I guess they all lie or don't know basketball.

 

[Ajflood12]

Cooney has had unfair expectations since coming to Syracuse. The first 2 years everybody held their breath every time Cooney had the ball waiting for a three. We all expected it to go in every time. Just hasn't happened consistently. It sucks but he couldn't live up to the hype.

 

[Shark58]

as for TC, we all pretty much know what he is by now. a very good defender with regard to steals, not so much is straight up, move your feet D. he's a streaky shooter who has better skills than he shows on the floor most nights, esp as The Winner is You pointed out above in making a savy dish down low.

this year it partly comes down to roster balance with regard to his mins. in a perfect world he would be getting 25-35 mins a night strictly at the 2 with Mal backing him up for the rest (plus spelling at the 3 when g is sitting or playing point). that said, even with the poor depth we have, he still plays too many mins imho.

as for his peer set, Pearl and Sherm? that's an insult to the greats...and PGs taboot.

Grouping him with GMac is fair. In the last 15 years or so I'd also put Devo, Andy, Dion, Bland, and maybe Deshaun in his category as a pretty pure 2. Stack him up against that list and I think he's around 5th out of 6/7. Doesn't mean he isn't good, just is what it is.

 

[skurey]

Great post SWC. Wish other posters were as open minded as you.

 

[Ghost]

as for TC, we all pretty much know what he is by now. a very good defender with regard to steals, not so much is straight up, move your feet D. he's a streaky shooter who has better skills than he shows on the floor most nights, esp as The Winner is You pointed out above in making a savy dish down low.

this year it partly comes down to roster balance with regard to his mins. in a perfect world he would be getting 25-35 mins a night strictly at the 2 with Mal backing him up for the rest (plus spelling at the 3 when g is sitting or playing point). that said, even with the poor depth we have, he still plays too many mins imho.

as for his peer set, Pearl and Sherm? that's an insult to the greats...and PGs taboot.

Grouping him with GMac is fair. In the last 15 years or so I'd also put Devo, Andy, Dion, Bland, and maybe Deshaun in his category as a pretty pure 2. Stack him up against that list and I think he's around 5th out of 6/7. Doesn't mean he isn't good, just is what it is.

Is that a Tony Bland reference? I was sad when he transferred out.

 

[Shark58]

Is that a Tony Bland reference? I was sad when he transferred out.

I was scratching my head for shoot first pure 2s with maybe some D to their game. Tony fit the bill better than Mookie or Theus, plus I couldn't post a list of just GMac, Dion, Devo and Andy to put up against Cooney. just wouldn't be fair.

 

[Toga]

Great post. I think he would of produced better here with a legit point guard. Unfortunately missing on Joseph is just killing us.

His 3pt percentage this year is actually higher than GMACs junior and senior year. I know GMAC will always have the Kansas game and 4 days in NY, but GMACs percentages were pretty much the same across the board and he had more help for three years.

I'm not a GMac fanboy but talk about a guy having no PG his last couple of years- He had to be the PG. I will also say McNamara made more dagger 3s in critical situations than I can remember.

 

[Toga]

Is that a Tony Bland reference? I was sad when he transferred out.

Same here. Bland was destined to be ultimate glue guy.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm not a GMac fanboy but talk about a guy having no PG his last couple of years- He had to be the PG. I will also say McNamara made more dagger 3s in critical situations than I can remember.

I'm not taking away Gmac's clutch moments (although being clutch is somewhat fluky), however 2 out of the last three years Cooney has shot a higher percentage from three than Gmac did his last three years.

Their overall percentages are really comparable and Gmac played with a future HOF'er one year, and a 10 year NBA vet for 3. I sat through an awful lot of 4-17's in the student section during Gmac's career and I know he was a pg but he tried to do too much also with better talent around him.

Also lets not kid ourselves, Gmac, like Flynn, and Devo were all horrible defenders in the zone. None of them cared about D and JB didn't/couldn't hold them accountable. Cooney isn't Triche or MCW up top, but he's much better defensively than just about everyone we had playing defense at the top in the 2000's.

I'm not trying to be the Gmac basher here cause he's been great for the Cuse, but I call it like I see it.

 

[br801]

Oh look, another bash Cooney thread.

Not worth commenting on any of it since it appears some people still don't know how the zone is played. And I don't think anyone has listened to JB or opposing coaches at all. I guess they all lie or don't know basketball.

I guess this is the damning with faint praise Cooney thread, in honor of his final home game.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Except Cooney isn't being bashed in this thread.

 

[Toga]

I'm not taking away Gmac's clutch moments (although being clutch is somewhat fluky), however 2 out of the last three years Cooney has shot a higher percentage from three than Gmac did his last three years.

Their overall percentages are really comparable and Gmac played with a future HOF'er one year, and a 10 year NBA vet for 3. I sat through an awful lot of 4-17's in the student section during Gmac's career and I know he was a pg but he tried to do too much also with better talent around him.

Also lets not kid ourselves, Gmac, like Flynn, and Devo were all horrible defenders in the zone. None of them cared about D and JB didn't/couldn't hold them accountable. Cooney isn't Triche or MCW up top, but he's much better defensively than just about everyone we had playing defense at the top in the 2000's.

I'm not trying to be the Gmac basher here cause he's been great for the Cuse, but I call it like I see it.

Cooney definitely a better defender. As I said - am not a GMac fanboy but he does benefit from hero moments in big games.