The Upside and the Downside of Trevor Cooney

[realorange]

Did Boeheim positively criticize Roberson? Serious question.

The one statement alone? No. But in the context of other conversations he had before that, it's hard to say. Besides, we are talking about players that we know only from their on the court performance versus a coach who knows them intimately.

 

[patcuse]

I love that coach says we have no other options and no other shooters that we can put in the game instead of him

Tell me again what's wrong with this lineup for five or 10 minutes a game

Malachi Mike Tyler Tyler DC

People will Knee jerk reaction to say it is not enough offense.

what is Cooney giving us One out of three games with average production on points.

I love one coaches say our opponents defense on Cooney open things up for others when Cooney has the ball.

It's kind of hard when you dribble with your head down and not facing the basket or when you are facing the basket you driving to the defense and get plunged. Also hard when you can't pass into the post!

Our game is decided by defense and rebounding and I believe this lineup is so significantly better on the board it's not even comparable

You answered your own question. It's so bad you only want to play it 5 to 10 minutes

 

[Newhouser]

Trevor has had a solid career here and played a key moments in a number of big wins for us (G-Town in the BE tourney, ND here, etc). He has never tanked in effort or backed down and gone into a shell, which can't be said for every player in this program.
My bigger question is why hasn't he improved more? The fact that such a hard worker still struggles with some basic basketball principles amazes me.
That said he has had a good career, where he may have been miscast, but the good should be recognized Saturday.

 

[skurey]

The one statement alone? No. But in the context of other conversations he had before that, it's hard to say. Besides, we are talking about players that we know only from their on the court performance versus a coach who knows them intimately.

That's the point. No one is criticizing their character, only their play. I don't see how that's a bad thing on a board made for discussing Syracuse sports.

 

[MikeSU02]

It's a sad day when a level-headed post by SWC75 is considered bashing.

Actually, it's a normal day when you frame it as the blind defense of Trevor Cooney against all reason and rational criticism.

He may be the most fiercely-defended 36% FG shooter in the history of college basketball.

 

[SoBeCuse]

It's a sad day when a level-headed post by SWC75 is considered bashing.

Actually, it's a normal day when you frame it as the blind defense of Trevor Cooney against all reason and rational criticism.

He may be the most fiercely-defended 36% FG shooter in the history of college basketball.

Seriously. That was my take as well. Presenting both rational sides of an obviously polarizing player's game. Nobody last time I checked was ripping Trevor, wishing ill will upon the kid, wishing he wasn't an Orangeman, etc. At least in this thread.

 

[SWC75]

People are taking their cues from you. And the message they heard was "yes it is true, Cooney is not and has not been a good player." You may not have intended that, but if we have a Walter Cronkite around here, it's you.

I didn't say that he hasn't been a good player. I said he was a disappointment. We've seen what he can do when he's playing well. There hasn't been enough of those games.

 

[SWC75]

Y

Your title is misleading and you could have added your opinion to other Cooney hate threads. Now we get more of the same responses.

Since my post was not a 'hate' post, it didn't belong in a 'hate' thread.

 

[SWC75]

I like T, H and N. What do I and K have to do with talking basketball?

 

[OttoMets]

Well, to be fair, none of what's posted on here is necessary.

As for SWC's post, I wouldn't call it unkind or unhelpful.

Good words to live and/or post by, but the original post is candid and merciful. Surely we can manage to debate the merits of one player or talk about how he measures up historically without making it ugly.

 

[OttoMets]

Did Boeheim positively criticize Roberson? Serious question.

The unstated but palpable rule:

No criticizing or negatively judging players unless Boeheim publicly does so.

 

[OttoMets]

I love that coach says we have no other options and no other shooters that we can put in the game instead of him

Tell me again what's wrong with this lineup for five or 10 minutes a game

Malachi Mike Tyler Tyler DC

People will Knee jerk reaction to say it is not enough offense.

what is Cooney giving us One out of three games with average production on points.

I love one coaches say our opponents defense on Cooney open things up for others when Cooney has the ball.

It's kind of hard when you dribble with your head down and not facing the basket or when you are facing the basket you driving to the defense and get plunged. Also hard when you can't pass into the post!

Our game is decided by defense and rebounding and I believe this lineup is so significantly better on the board it's not even comparable

My hunch: they've spent so much time grooming Malachi to be competent on the wing, they don't want to complicate things and jeopardize wins or an NCAA bid by asking him to defend a very different position at this critical juncture. And I can see the logic in that.

I also see the logic in finding a way to get Cooney down to ~30 minutes a game, fewer if he's not scoring.

 

[OttoMets]

Trevor has had a solid career here and played a key moments in a number of big wins for us (G-Town in the BE tourney, ND here, etc). He has never tanked in effort or backed down and gone into a shell, which can't be said for every player in this program.
My bigger question is why hasn't he improved more? The fact that such a hard worker still struggles with some basic basketball principles amazes me.
That said he has had a good career, where he may have been miscast, but the good should be recognized Saturday.

Exactly how I feel. Good post.

 

[CorduroyG]

People thought cooney would have an andy rautins type senior season. It hasnt happened. He never made the leap that some people thought he'd make. Hes basically been the same player since his soph year.

A 5th year senior whose started as many games as cooney you expect more from him than 3 points in a home game late in the year thats huge for your tourny resume.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Exactly how I feel. Good post.

I think he has pretty much utilized and maxed out all of his physical talents which were never above average/elite anyways. Obviously a hard worker and good kid. Really good shooter when he's on. One can argue that he should be a better passer by now but, again, I stick to by guns by saying the coaches have failed Cooney by putting him in the position to play almost 40 MPG for like three seasons now. He and the team has needed WAY more help out there in the backcourt.

 

[tbonezone]

"It is pretty simple. Listen to coaches instead of fans. "

curious has trevor cooney ever been voted onto any all conference team in the BE or ACC ?
the rest of the "club" were all voted by the coaches as 1st teamers at least once.

 

[rrlbees]

Well, to be fair, none of what's posted on here is necessary. As for SWC's post, I wouldn't call it unkind or unhelpful. Good words to live and/or post by, but the original post is candid and merciful. Surely we can manage to debate the merits of one player or talk about how he measures up historically without making it ugly.

It gets ugly and it gets repetitive in multiple threads over and over.

 

[rrlbees]

The unstated but palpable rule: No criticizing or negatively judging players unless Boeheim publicly does so.

Except if you listen to the presser, it doesn't come close to what gets said here and not just about Cooney.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Unfortunate. You guys have it rough here on occasion I'd imagine.

 

[rrlbees]

wishing he wasn't an Orangeman

Those will typically get deleted.

 

[HoustonCuse]

I didn't say that he hasn't been a good player. I said he was a disappointment. We've seen what he can do when he's playing well. There hasn't been enough of those games.

SWC, when I saw your post title, I thought "great! we can now get a data driven analysis of exactly how good or bad Cooney has really been without emotional contrivances on either side!" I got disappointed because short of a net points comparison between Roberson and Cooney for a single game, there wasn't any data in your post. You mentioned that the radio was trying to peer-group him with other historical figures from SU basketball and it looked like a perfect opportunity for you to comment upon and validate those comparisons using your net points or other analysis. Instead of that, your post was not driven by data but by the same conjecture (or at least qualitative analysis) that everyone else uses.

People have taken a small amount of umbrage to my post on the topic because they have an emotion-driven idea that Cooney isn't very good (and in some extreme cases they believe is one of the worst players to ever suit up in orange *eye-roll*). But those people are simply having a further emotional reaction that now a Mt. Rushmore type fair-and-balanced data guy like yourself has come down on their side of the argument. They feel this gives weight to their mostly-baseless feelings on how good or bad a player he is. It is certainly your right to post anything you want, but I feel this was a huge missed opportunity to add real clarity to the "Cooney question" and instead all that happened here is the trolls were fed. And the food coming from you is an especially big meal!

People will read my comments here and accuse me of defending Cooney at all costs. I am doing nothing of the sort. That is just more emotionalism. I do, however, feel that Mr. Cooney has earned the right to have a fair look at his career from us and not a long list of emotional outbursts saying he is terrible and hurt the team. We just don't have the data to say that either way - and by the way that data would also have to include the opportunity cost of him being on the floor versus somebody else. If we, as a fanbase, are going to rip apart our own players, especially players who have committed 5 years to the program and clearly give their all, then I believe we owe it to them to be damn sure they are awful before we do that. Period. The fact is we have not done the work to prove that. You were our best hope for that sort of analysis and it didn't happen. It clearly put a big boost into the Cooney sucks crowd. I'm disappointed with that. We should be better than that.

But whatever, this entire debate has gone well past logic and data. People feel how they feel and there is no convincing them otherwise. Certainly not now.

 

[OttoMets]

I think he has pretty much utilized and maxed out all of his physical talents which were never above average/elite anyways. Obviously a hard worker and good kid. Really good shooter when he's on. One can argue that he should be a better passer by now but, again, I stick to by guns by saying the coaches have failed Cooney by putting him in the position to play almost 40 MPG for like three seasons now. He and the team has needed WAY more help out there in the backcourt.

What I think gets lost in these debates:

Cooney is, what, a 97th-percentile basketball talent? Watching Syracuse for decades, we're spoiled by having top-end talent every year - 98th-percentile guys with the occasional Coleman or Anthony who's even better than that. So there are tiny differences in natural talent that can make a relatively big difference in what we see on the court. Sometimes hard work and even luck (McNamara playing with Warrick for three years instead of Eric Williams) make up for a slight talent deficit

Cooney is a very good basketball player who happens to have a slight talent deficiency compared to some of those who've come before him - some guys instinctively know how to finish in traffic, others have a good vertical but have to actively work hard to pair that elevation with absorbing contact and going through the mechanics of shooting; some guys can run a fast break, others must think their way through "draw the defender, eyes up, prepare to pass NOW, ball in outside hand, prepare to shoot." For the guys whose instincts don't get the job done, it takes a lot of extra work to do things that Michael Lloyd did in his sleep and most of us take for granted.

Cooney's worked hard, but he hasn't been bailed out by playing with a bunch of stars (how would our opinion of Matt Roe change if he'd had Cooney's teammates instead of Owens, Sherm, and the gang?), nor has he enjoyed what I'd consider typical rest during games (far from it - I believe that he expends more energy on defense than a more naturally-skilled player would, catching him in a negative feedback loop).

Whatever, he's worked hard, hasn't done any stupid things. We're Syracuse fans and we root for the guys who play for us; some years we've got great players, some years merely good players. Recognize his limitations, hope he mixes in some productive games down the stretch and tacks a few more wins onto the end of his career.

 

[OttoMets]

It gets ugly and it gets repetitive in multiple threads over and over.

I hope no one's advocating for ugly.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I would imagine Cooney is probably just about the worst overall player in Syracuse modern-history to start more than 60 games - or 50, maybe 40...Oh well, someone always has to finish last - being the worst at Syracuse is hardly a bad thing. We're a great program.

People trump up his steal stats, but per 40 minutes they are incredibly pedestrian for a Syracuse guard. It would be near impossible for a guard in our zone not to get as many steals as TC - and not be Top 10 in conference. It's just the nature of the zone. It sucks for rebounding, but if you're a starting guard, welcome to the Top 10 in steals!

That doesn't mean he won't catch fire and lead us to NCAA glory though. He has that in him, and it'd be sweet redemption for a good kid who has had an oft-criticized career. It's all about match-ups in the tourney anyway - maybe we get a couple SEC teams, 'Nova as 1 seed, and boom, Final Four! Cooney becomes legend! You never know.

I would expect the reverse of Roberson is true when it comes to JB's criticism of TC. He criticizes Roberson because he could probably practice better, or play better, and JB knows this. He wants more out of him - and he feels there is more to give. That's probably frustrating as hell for him - so he lets loose on him.

With Cooney, what are you going to do? I have ZERO doubt that he gives 100% in practice, 100% in games, and does pretty much what JB says 93% of the time. The 7% accounts for the mistakes that every single player will make. What would be the purpose of lighting him up in a presser? You reward that kid with kind words - he played great defense!!! Did he? I don't know, he probably played good defense. He usually does.

When he shoots well, you single him out for shooting well too.

You call the kid out - where does it get you? You're not going to get a better effort out of Cooney - he's all effort all the time. A warrior. He's just not very good for this level. He's a P5 talent, but because of recruiting misses, and JB's reluctance to give less "dependable" or consistent options a chance (Patterson, Johnson - and I'm not sure I go to far down the road either) to develop, you get tons of TC for three years. This is probably the only year where he's a 20 minute per game type player. Which is cool.

Sooooo, no reason to single him out. It's like when JB gives that example about Rony Seikaly griping that JB never criticized Stevie Thompson, and JB said fine, "Stevie, stop doing what I tell you to do. Stop trying so hard." He probably sees no reason to be critical of Cooney, I'm not sure I do either.

Kid did every single thing the coaches asked him to do - it's hard to hate on him for that.

Yes. Exactly. TC is a good as he is going to be. Great Post.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

SWC, when I saw your post title, I thought "great! we can now get a data driven analysis of exactly how good or bad Cooney has really been without emotional contrivances on either side!" I got disappointed because short of a net points comparison between Roberson and Cooney for a single game, there wasn't any data in your post. You mentioned that the radio was trying to peer-group him with other historical figures from SU basketball and it looked like a perfect opportunity for you to comment upon and validate those comparisons using your net points or other analysis. Instead of that, your post was not driven by data but by the same conjecture (or at least qualitative analysis) that everyone else uses.

People have taken a small amount of umbrage to my post on the topic because they have an emotion-driven idea that Cooney isn't very good (and in some extreme cases they believe is one of the worst players to ever suit up in orange *eye-roll*). But those people are simply having a further emotional reaction that now a Mt. Rushmore type fair-and-balanced data guy like yourself has come down on their side of the argument. They feel this gives weight to their mostly-baseless feelings on how good or bad a player he is. It is certainly your right to post anything you want, but I feel this was a huge missed opportunity to add real clarity to the "Cooney question" and instead all that happened here is the trolls were fed. And the food coming from you is an especially big meal!

People will read my comments here and accuse me of defending Cooney at all costs. I am doing nothing of the sort. That is just more emotionalism. I do, however, feel that Mr. Cooney has earned the right to have a fair look at his career from us and not a long list of emotional outbursts saying he is terrible and hurt the team. We just don't have the data to say that either way - and by the way that data would also have to include the opportunity cost of him being on the floor versus somebody else. If we, as a fanbase, are going to rip apart our own players, especially players who have committed 5 years to the program and clearly give their all, then I believe we owe it to them to be damn sure they are awful before we do that. Period. The fact is we have not done the work to prove that. You were our best hope for that sort of analysis and it didn't happen. It clearly put a big boost into the Cooney sucks crowd. I'm disappointed with that. We should be better than that.

But whatever, this entire debate has gone well past logic and data. People feel how they feel and there is no convincing them otherwise. Certainly not now.

There have been data driven analyses of Cooney's game in the past. They've been labeled as "bashing."