Think big boy football | Syracusefan.com

Think big boy football

Don

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It's time to start thinking about big boy football when looking at recruiting. We are competing against basically 65 or 66 teams for recruiting period. That's how we should be judged and how we should be rated.

It's also how things like bringing fans back and going to bowl games and all other good things with the program are going to get better.

In the bigger picture If we are going to get much better down the road we need to be in the 30 for recruiting classes. You can ramble and babble all day and all night about how stars don't matter and it's phony and guys like JJ watt was a 2 star but guess what? Long term unless your coach is an ass clowns when you have constant classes in the top 20 in these services you generally are rated in the top 20. That means you get better bowls, that means you normally get better fan participaion, that means you can spend more money on your program and others, that means other good players want to play with the other good players you have.

It's time to stop thinking that classes in the 40 and 50 in what basically is a 65 team league are good. It's what basically we are in college football a lower third tier team in p5.

I agree there seems to be some better players in this class. I also don't think stars play a big role in say development of offensive lines where cohesiveness and good talent can be turned into a very effective offensive line.

Overall this class may help us prevent for getting beat 76 to 62 or may help us not give up 7 to 8 yards in games to the top echelon teams. It may help us beat Boston College and wake Forest. Maybe we stay within 30 points of Clemson .

Every team can point to players they say we're underrated and would be 4 stars if they were taler, or came from a better program or played in Florida or whatever,. The bottom line is that in a 65 team league over the course of 6 to ten years of recruiting if your playing teams that are constantly recruiting in the top 20 in these ratings and you are recruiting constantly in the 50 and so on, the team in the twenties is going to win 90 percent of the time, they are going to the bigger bowls 90 percent of the time, they are going to make and spend more money on football 90 percent of the time. These are simple facts and they are undisputable.

I think Dino Babes gets it totally and I think during his time here we will get some cases in the 30,s and he will win some games that will shock people. I'm not sure how many other people around the program including fans get it. It's time to stop giving a crap about Uconn or Buffalo or western Michigan or whatever those teams don't matter at all period .


It's time to start rating the program aginst what really matters and that's big boy foitball in the P5 and yes those chum wagons at Notre Dame . Nothing else matters in the scheme of things in the era we are in. All the focus on recruiting, scheduling, facilities, fan base should be based on that and that alone .
A non bowl season in a 65 team league when there are about 80 to 90 bowl slots is putrid. Classes in the 50,s in a 65 team league are not going to cut it over the long haul. Bringing back fans in a changing climate in a city of refugees that think Football is the other game with a round ball is going to take something special that I think Dino Babes gets. He needs backing from the administration and the fans to think like big time football.

So next time you think about starting topics on Uconn and boneyard and stuff like that ask yourself do they really matter in football and where we are and what they mean in the scheme of things because if we still think they mean smething well we get what we deserve.
 
You're getting too hung up in the ranking #'s.

Several of our guys aren't ranked at all, or are very low because they played in places nobody from the services scouted them.
And, a team like SUNJ is likely to have several of their better recruits non-qual (like we did under Shafer), so their actual class that makes it to campus will likely be much lower ranked than ours.

Think back to Brisley's class - he was almost literally the only major impact player.
Dino's first class had a bunch of guys who could (and did) play, and many more that redshirted.
This class definitely passes the eye test, and likely has numerous impact players, many who were offered by the P5 elite.

We're trending in the right direction.
The 2017 schedule does us zero favors, but we're certain to see more and more signs that Syracuse football is on the way back.

Have faith. Belief without evidence.
 
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Marrone brought in raw talent with size and speed. His strategy was to develop and coach up some projects with hopes they could compete down the road.

Shafer liked high character kids that loved the game of football. Size and speed were sacrificed for hard nosededness.

Babers is not making these compromises. This class is full of kids that can play the game and have the physical tools to compete at this level. There is most definitely a reason to have some optimism as a fan.
 
There are some contrasts in the approaches of Marrone, Shafer & Babers, but keep in mind that a big factor was which prospects wanted to give us a visit. Each of the three sent out a couple of hundred offer letters trying to get higher ranked prospects. Shafer did not try for smallish DBs -- he took some after he missed on the ones that went elsewhere.

Shafer may have liked high character kids, but his 2014 class had a bunch who did not qualify. Lost 1/3 of a class because kids never made it here, or left within a year.

Here is one true contrast. Marrone built around a few GROB recruits at skill positions, with JUCOs to buttress both lines. Shafer abandoned the JUCO strategy in his 2014 and 2015 classes.

Babers was smart enough to go heavily into JUCO ranks to upgrade at TE this season and to upgrade his defensive units. He did not get the highly rated talent he wanted at WR, RB, OT and DT. Overall, it looks like a deep class, and it might be better when if he can add 2 or 3 grad transfers. And, consider that we now have a decent 2015 class, and two good Babers' classes -- and that is what this program needs. Back to back to back solid if not spectacular classes.
 
I have four basic criteria that i believe is a much better measure of recruiting success than any rating system.
1: Early offers/commits. Regardless of rankings this is by far the most important indication of a solid recruit with one major caveat. Your coaching staff must be exceptional at evaluating talent. By all accounts Dino has a great eye. Tommy Gun was only a 2 star. IM our DB from Mass wasnt highly regarded. The Canadian kids...

2: Other teams offering. If LSU Michigan Texas A&M... Offer the kid is a player. Period regardless of rankings.
3: System fit, culture fit. These guys fit the mold of Dinos system. Most importantly they all look to qualify. Silly example but if a team signed 10 4/5 star kids who either never qualified or washed out because of issues that schools class would still be rated higher than a lesser star school that had all of their recruits qualify.

4: Fill holes. Dino filled some major holes with quality recruits.
TE: Best talent in 10 years if not more.
DBs: Huge upgrade. Two possibly three starters.
RB: Added the power needed.
So yes stars matter but when judged against these 4 benchmarks i feel that this is going to end up being an exceptional class.
Staff did a great job.
 
It's time to start thinking about big boy football when looking at recruiting. We are competing against basically 65 or 66 teams for recruiting period. That's how we should be judged and how we should be rated.

It's also how things like bringing fans back and going to bowl games and all other good things with the program are going to get better.

In the bigger picture If we are going to get much better down the road we need to be in the 30 for recruiting classes. You can ramble and babble all day and all night about how stars don't matter and it's phony and guys like JJ watt was a 2 star but guess what? Long term unless your coach is an ass clowns when you have constant classes in the top 20 in these services you generally are rated in the top 20. That means you get better bowls, that means you normally get better fan participaion, that means you can spend more money on your program and others, that means other good players want to play with the other good players you have.

It's time to stop thinking that classes in the 40 and 50 in what basically is a 65 team league are good. It's what basically we are in college football a lower third tier team in p5.

I agree there seems to be some better players in this class. I also don't think stars play a big role in say development of offensive lines where cohesiveness and good talent can be turned into a very effective offensive line.

Overall this class may help us prevent for getting beat 76 to 62 or may help us not give up 7 to 8 yards in games to the top echelon teams. It may help us beat Boston College and wake Forest. Maybe we stay within 30 points of Clemson .

Every team can point to players they say we're underrated and would be 4 stars if they were taler, or came from a better program or played in Florida or whatever,. The bottom line is that in a 65 team league over the course of 6 to ten years of recruiting if your playing teams that are constantly recruiting in the top 20 in these ratings and you are recruiting constantly in the 50 and so on, the team in the twenties is going to win 90 percent of the time, they are going to the bigger bowls 90 percent of the time, they are going to make and spend more money on football 90 percent of the time. These are simple facts and they are undisputable.

I think Dino Babes gets it totally and I think during his time here we will get some cases in the 30,s and he will win some games that will shock people. I'm not sure how many other people around the program including fans get it. It's time to stop giving a crap about Uconn or Buffalo or western Michigan or whatever those teams don't matter at all period .


It's time to start rating the program aginst what really matters and that's big boy foitball in the P5 and yes those chum wagons at Notre Dame . Nothing else matters in the scheme of things in the era we are in. All the focus on recruiting, scheduling, facilities, fan base should be based on that and that alone .
A non bowl season in a 65 team league when there are about 80 to 90 bowl slots is putrid. Classes in the 50,s in a 65 team league are not going to cut it over the long haul. Bringing back fans in a changing climate in a city of refugees that think Football is the other game with a round ball is going to take something special that I think Dino Babes gets. He needs backing from the administration and the fans to think like big time football.

So next time you think about starting topics on Uconn and boneyard and stuff like that ask yourself do they really matter in football and where we are and what they mean in the scheme of things because if we still think they mean smething well we get what we deserve.

You're not going to get to where you want without classes like the one we just have. I think people underestimate how much damage was done to the forward trajectory of the program with Marrone leaving and how he left. That is no knock on Marrone (I'm not one of those dougie or Saint doug people), as I get having a NFL head coaching gig offered. It is what it is.

I think the Admin is finally serious about investing in the program and with Baber's offensive system, we're going to be putting up video game numbers. And we'll have a more consistent approach to doing that as he builds team depth. Injuries and lack of depth really hurt us this past season, otherwise we very well may have been a 6 win bowl team in his first season.
 
Babers was smart enough to go heavily into JUCO ranks to upgrade at TE this season and to upgrade his defensive units. He did not get the highly rated talent he wanted at WR, RB, OT and DT. Overall, it looks like a deep class, and it might be better when if he can add 2 or 3 grad transfers. And, consider that we now have a decent 2015 class, and two good Babers' classes -- and that is what this program needs. Back to back to back solid if not spectacular classes.

I think I disagree with some of this. The WRs they landed were targeted early, offered early and committed early. Sharod was the first commitment last year April. Appears they got 4 WRs they really wanted. They landed the DT they wanted as well as Dakota Davis on the OL. They definitely missed the OTs they wanted and Fleet Davis at RB but they didn't really seem to press RBs after Davis. Appears they might've got a steal there anyways.
 
I will add on the WRs. Babers said in his presser he wants to get bigger on the inside, at the slot. He said but if we can't, we want guys who are blurs and the two we got are blurs.

Big and fast on the outside, really fast on the inside.

He seemed genuinely excited about the WR haul.
 
You're getting too hung up in the ranking #'s.

Several of our guys aren't ranked at all, or are very low because they played in places nobody from the services scouted them.
And, a team like SUNJ is likely to have several of their better recruits non-qual (like we did under Shafer), so their actual class that makes it to campus will likely be much lower ranked than ours.

Think back to Brisley's class - he was almost literally the only major impact player.
Dino's first class had a bunch of guys who could (and did) play, and many more that redshirted.
This class definitely passes the eye test, and likely has numerous impact players, many who were offered by the P5 elite.

We're trending in the right direction.
The 2017 schedule does us zero favors, but we're certain to see more and more signs that Syracuse football is on the way back.

Have faith. Belief without evidence.
You are spot on about not "getting too hung up in the ranking #'s." Look at the schools that made offers & were in the mix at the end to get a more realistic view.
 
I agree that HCDM's departure cratered our recruiting, and, IMHO, set SS up to fail. However, I also think that the OP is right. Classes that are consistently around 50 aren't good enough.

Our teams lives and dies w/ our offensive system, which is terrible at winning games w/ a talent disadvantage, but great at winning games w/ a talent advantage. It's also fantastic at putting up eye-popping individual numbers and highlights, so it should be great at recruiting. Therefore, our team's long term/lasting success is based off of translating those highlights to signees. I think that DB did great in year 0 and good enough in year 1, but next year is the real test. The system should begin working much better, and high school players will know what we're all about BEFORE they're recruited heavily.

RECRUITING:
My goal for this year was to end around 50 (check - by several rankings)
My goal for next year is to end around 40 (TBD)
My goal for the next year is to end around 35 (TBD)
My goal for the next year is to end around 30 (TBD)
And my goal after that is to consistently stay in the T30 more years than not.

ON THE FIELD:
5+ wins next year (CC, MTSU, WMU, WF, and BC, w/ a reasonable possibility against Pitt and NCSU, and a very long shot against Miami, UL, Clemson, and FSU)
6+ wins thereafter, averaging 8-9 wins a year
 
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I think I disagree with some of this. The WRs they landed were targeted early, offered early and committed early. Sharod was the first commitment last year April. Appears they got 4 WRs they really wanted. They landed the DT they wanted as well as Dakota Davis on the OL. They definitely missed the OTs they wanted and Fleet Davis at RB but they didn't really seem to press RBs after Davis. Appears they might've got a steal there anyways.

Maybe. Have to remember that a staff is going to talk up they guys who committed here, and say nothing about the guys who received our letters and never gave us a nod.

Our white chip WRs may turn out to be blue chips, but the ratings services weren't convinced. With the success Babers has had in the passing game, weren't we hoping for better? Dakota Davis and the DT you mention are solid prospects -- but you will see that our rivals (Pitt, Maryland, even Rutgers) did better in those positions.
 
Maybe. Have to remember that a staff is going to talk up they guys who committed here, and say nothing about the guys who received our letters and never gave us a nod.

Our white chip WRs may turn out to be blue chips, but the ratings services weren't convinced. With the success Babers has had in the passing game, weren't we hoping for better? Dakota Davis and the DT you mention are solid prospects -- but you will see that our rivals (Pitt, Maryland, even Rutgers) did better in those positions.

How do you weigh when they were offered ? ...and 3 of them performed in camp.

Sharod Johnson - committed 4/16
Nykeim johnson - committed 6/16
Cam Jordan - committed 6/16
RTB - committed 7/16

None of them were fill ins, none were b-listers.

Sharod was 2nd team all-state Florida. Caught 2 tds and 100+ yards against St Thomas Aquinas this season. He's good. Speed and wiggle.

Time will tell if Babers or the services were right. My money is on Babers for these 4.
 
How do you weigh when they were offered ? ...and 3 of them performed in camp.

Sharod Johnson - committed 4/16
Nykeim johnson - committed 6/16
Cam Jordan - committed 6/16
RTB - committed 7/16

None of them were fill ins, none were b-listers.

Sharod was 2nd team all-state Florida. Caught 2 tds and 100+ yards against St Thomas Aquinas this season. He's good. Speed and wiggle.

Time will tell if Babers or the services were right. My money is on Babers for these 4.

This debate is pointless it's kind of like discussing politics you won't convince someone to change their mind. There is so no way of directing or knowing if a class will be great or not. The point is I trust in Dino and as long as he is recruiting players that fit his system that he thinks he can win with I am happy.
 
Honestly we know our Offense will be better and we saw how good it already was. If our defense is better at all we will make a bowl game and surprise some people. Is there anyone who thinks our defense could be worse? All of those young kids with another year in the system and all the kids we just added. I'm expecting a pretty big bump in our defense.
 
How do you weigh when they were offered ? ...and 3 of them performed in camp.

Sharod Johnson - committed 4/16
Nykeim johnson - committed 6/16
Cam Jordan - committed 6/16
RTB - committed 7/16

None of them were fill ins, none were b-listers.

Sharod was 2nd team all-state Florida. Caught 2 tds and 100+ yards against St Thomas Aquinas this season. He's good. Speed and wiggle.

Time will tell if Babers or the services were right. My money is on Babers for these 4.
I mentioned earlier that we have three 4* recruits in TD, Fagan (was 4* at one time) and Pierce.

Additionally, an argument could be made that we have two others in Williams (who was a 4* out of HS) and Richards. If Richards played in the USA he definitely would have been rated much higher.

When you take the time to evaluate each player and his skill set, rather than depend on the subjective star systems, I think it's very clear that this is the best class in a long time.
 
I mentioned earlier that we have three 4* recruits in TD, Fagan (was 4* at one time) and Pierce.

Additionally, an argument could be made that we have two others in Williams (who was a 4* out of HS) and Richards. If Richards played in the USA he definitely would have been rated much higher.

When you take the time to evaluate each player and his skill set, rather than depend on the subjective star systems, I think it's very clear that this is the best class in a long time.

AND - unlike w/ past classes, our best recruits are going to make it to campus (or are already there.) :cool:
 
Honestly we know our Offense will be better and we saw how good it already was. If our defense is better at all we will make a bowl game and surprise some people. Is there anyone who thinks our defense could be worse? All of those young kids with another year in the system and all the kids we just added. I'm expecting a pretty big bump in our defense.
Our offense was fast, not good. It actually got worse under HCDB. But I think that the regression was due to A) learning a new system and B) not having players who were custom recruited/conditioned for the new system.

The up side of that is that there is a lot of room for improvement, and we were still very close to going bowling last year, even w/ one of the hardest schedules in the nation (Clemson, FSU, Louisville, VT, Pitt, and arguably ND - even though their record was pretty bad)
 
Our offense was fast, not good. It actually got worse under HCDB. But I think that the regression was due to A) learning a new system and B) not having players who were custom recruited/conditioned for the new system.

The up side of that is that there is a lot of room for improvement, and we were still very close to going bowling last year, even w/ one of the hardest schedules in the nation (Clemson, FSU, Louisville, VT, Pitt, and arguably ND - even though their record was pretty bad)
What metrics are you using to draw this conclusion?
 
I will add on the WRs. Babers said in his presser he wants to get bigger on the inside, at the slot. He said but if we can't, we want guys who are blurs and the two we got are blurs.

Big and fast on the outside, really fast on the inside.

He seemed genuinely excited about the WR haul.
completely agree - I don't know how you can look at the 4 receivers they signed and not be extremely excited
 
What metrics are you using to draw this conclusion?

Exactly. If you go with points per game and exclude defensive scores, 2016 > 2015.

Yards per Play
2016: 5.45, #84
2015: 5.11, #102

Pass Yds
2016: 321.3, #11
2015: 156.8, #117

Rush Yds
2016: 119.08, #115
2015: 163.17, #77

First Downs
2016: 22.3, #42
2015: 17.0, #115

I don't think it's even close to being accurate that 2015 O > 2016 O.

Also of note, 2017 O is going to be bonkers if we can run the ball at all.
 
Exactly. If you go with points per game and exclude defensive scores, 2016 > 2015.

Yards per Play
2016: 5.45, #84
2015: 5.11, #102

Pass Yds
2016: 321.3, #11
2015: 156.8, #117

Rush Yds
2016: 119.08, #115
2015: 163.17, #77

First Downs
2016: 22.3, #42
2015: 17.0, #115

I don't think it's even close to being accurate that 2015 O > 2016 O.

Also of note, 2017 O is going to be bonkers if we can run the ball at all.
The random numbers that you're throwing out are close to worthless. The pace between the two offenses is wildly different. Adjust for pace and your arrow flips.
 

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