This is going to be a loooooong year

[tipphill]

i said after the first game that this will be a double digit loss season. last night confirmed it for me . no shooters, no half court offense. if we are lucky we may be a bubble team,but more than likely nit. i am going to the game tonite at the garden, not bailing out on su just calling it like i see it. i view this year as a prep year for great things to come. one of jbs best coaching years came with janilus(sp), cipolla and company. i do not see that level of cohesion, and energy with this team. jb will need to be creative with the personnel to be competitive. no cooney hate here, however he adds little in the way of offensive productivity and we cannot depend on him. he, getting way to many minutes with little productivity where we need it most. w/o him we may sacrifice some defense, but we need to find points

 

[Alsacs]

It wouldn't hurt if someone else would make a jump shot to soften up the defense. Cooney works hard setting up screens and coming off them and usually when he catches the big guy helps on d so he can't get that initial look. Teams do key on him as syracuse's only shooter and he doesn't get that many looks with both feet set. I understand he hasn't been good, but I still don't see buss without the same attention doing much to take his spot.

Then why is TC getting 35 mpg? Cooney is a SG version of James Southerland. Southerland got himself shots in transition but Cooney does not. Southerland also worked on a pump fake and could put the ball on the deck better than Cooney.
Again the excuses for the kid are not right if he needs more help then cut his minutes. Mike G, Patterson are options. JB's loyalty to the kid was too much last year. Go watch the Dayton game it was so obvious Mike G should have started the 2nd half and he didn't.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Maybe McCullough will shock the world and came back for his soph year. We're due for that right?

 

[TheCusian]

This isn't good. this isn't refreshing. We aren't good. We won't be good. Now, we have been so solid for so long, we are due for a season like this.

This is the most depressing post I've seen in a long time - it's also ignorant of history.

You cannot base an entire season on one loss. You can literally go back through all three decades of Syracuse teams and find losses like this followed by steady improvement and ultimately a trip to the NCAA's.

 

[orange79]

Then why is TC getting 35 mpg? Cooney is a SG version of James Southerland. Southerland got himself shots in transition but Cooney does not. Southerland also worked on a pump fake and could put the ball on the deck better than Cooney.

Because he can defend, and knows where to be on the floor. Give me Cooney on D very day of the year over JSouth. Just because your getting a little more offense, if the defense gives up more points, what's the gain?

 

[TheCusian]

The only thing worse than watching this team grow into itself will be watching the slow realization and acceptance of the posters who had too high of expectations, come back to earth.

(Followed by the almost horrible "sky is falling" JAB needs to retire or play man posters).

 

[HOFCeluck]

This is the most depressing post I've seen in a long time - it's also ignorant of history.

You cannot base an entire season on one loss. You can literally go back through all three decades of Syracuse teams and find losses like this followed by steady improvement and ultimately a trip to the NCAA's.

It's very un-Syracuse like to have a loss this bad, this early, especially at a place like MSG. The only recent examples I can think of that had good outcomes formthe season are 2003 and the 03-04 team that lost at home to UNCC because some future CPA had a transcendent night from three.

I'm not completely bailing, but it's not a very good sign.

 

[Alsacs]

Because he can defend, and knows where to be on the floor. Give me Cooney on D very day of the year over JSouth. Just because your getting a little more offense, if the defense gives up more points, what's the gain?

Sorry but we play 2-3 zone not man to man defense. Cooney's defense is good but not elite shutdown. I think Mike G can play the top of the zone just as well as Cooney. Our offense is not good right now we need our SG to be more than a decoy on offense. Cutting Cooney's minutes down to the 20's not a bad idea to explore right now as the status quo is not working.

 

[orange79]

Sorry but we play 2-3 zone not man t man defense. Cooney's defense is good but not elite shutdown. In think Mike G can play the top of the zone just as well as Cooney. Our offense is not good right now we need our SG to be more than a decoy on offense.

Where did I say he was elite shutdown? You were comparing JSouth to Cooney. I was responding.

 

[TheCusian]

It's very un-Syracuse like to have a loss this bad, this early, especially at a place like MSG. The only recent examples I can think of that had good outcomes formthe season are 2003 and the 03-04 team that lost at home to UNCC because some future CPA had a transcendent night from three.

I'm not completely bailing, but it's not a very good sign.

It's very Syracusian thing to do. We've dropped ugly games early many, many years and it's not been predictive of anything at all. Only recently have we reeled off big win streaks to start the season (the other time in our history we did that was the late 80's). I will grant you that we have some systemic issues and this team does not pass the eyeball test early.

Anyways, here are all of the relevant losses:

1993 - Lost to BC in early Dec 75-58 (Lost in Sweet 16)

1994 - Lost to George Washington in 1st game of the year 111-104 at home (Lost in 2nd Rnd of NCAA)

1996 - Lost to Kentucky in Nov 87-53 on NCourt, Loss to WVU in early Dec 101-79 (NIT year)

1997 - Lost to Michigan in Dec 93-61 (Sweet 16 loss)

1998 - Lost to Ohio at home 61-55 in early Dec, Lost two more in mid dec (WVU, Seton Hall) (1st Rnd NCAA loss)

2000 - Lost to Tenn at home 83-70 in mid Dec (2nd Rnd NCAA loss)

2001 - Lost to NC State 82-68 then again in the next game to GTech 96-80 (NIT Year)

2002 - Lost 1st game of the year to Memphis 70-63. (Won NCAA title)

2003 - Lost 1st game of the year to Charlotte 96-92 (Sweet 16 team)

2004 - Lost in early Dec to OK State 74-60 on N Court (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2005 - Lost to Florida on a N Court in early Dec 75-70, then the next game to Bucknell 74-69 (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2006 - Lost to Wichita State in early Dec 64-61, then to OK State on a N Court 72-68 (NIT year)

2007 - Lost to Ohio State in Nov on N Court 79-65 (NIT Year)

2008 - Lost to Cleveland State at home 72-69 (Lost Sweet 16)

2012 - Lost to Temple on N Court 83-79 (Lost in Final Four)

 

[Millhouse]

What does everyone see in this guy? He's on the floor for 30 minutes and has a hard time scoring 10 points. He's not a scorer. He's a jack of all trades role player not a leading man.

i agree that he's not a scorer, not a leading man and at best he's a jack of all trades.

i still prefer him out there than the other guy whose description would much less flattering

 

[Millhouse]

It's very Syracusian thing to do. We've dropped ugly games early many, many years and it's not been predictive of anything at all. Only recently have we reeled off big win streaks to start the season (the other time in our history we did that was the late 80's). I will grant you that we have some systemic issues and this team does not pass the eyeball test early.

Anyways, here are all of the relevant losses:

1993 - Lost to BC in early Dec 75-58 (Lost in Sweet 16)

1994 - Lost to George Washington in 1st game of the year 111-104 at home (Lost in 2nd Rnd of NCAA)

1996 - Lost to Kentucky in Nov 87-53 on NCourt, Loss to WVU in early Dec 101-79 (NIT year)

1997 - Lost to Michigan in Dec 93-61 (Sweet 16 loss)

1998 - Lost to Ohio at home 61-55 in early Dec, Lost two more in mid dec (WVU, Seton Hall) (1st Rnd NCAA loss)

2000 - Lost to Tenn at home 83-70 in mid Dec (2nd Rnd NCAA loss)

2001 - Lost to NC State 82-68 then again in the next game to GTech 96-80 (NIT Year)

2002 - Lost 1st game of the year to Memphis 70-63. (Won NCAA title)

2003 - Lost 1st game of the year to Charlotte 96-92 (Sweet 16 team)

2004 - Lost in early Dec to OK State 74-60 on N Court (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2005 - Lost to Florida on a N Court in early Dec 75-70, then the next game to Bucknell 74-69 (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2006 - Lost to Wichita State in early Dec 64-61, then to OK State on a N Court 72-68 (NIT year)

2007 - Lost to Ohio State in Nov on N Court 79-65 (NIT Year)

2008 - Lost to Cleveland State at home 72-69 (Lost Sweet 16)

2012 - Lost to Temple on N Court 83-79 (Lost in Final Four)

i don't care about any of that. i don't see much hope for this year. they're all different teams. this one doesn't look very good. oh well

 

[Alsacs]

Where did I say he was elite shutdown? You were comparing JSouth to Cooney. I was responding.

Fine Cooney is a better defender than Southerland, but Southerland's offensive threat created spacing for MCW, Fair to create offense. Cooneys offense is not getting anybody any spacing. JSo always had the ball fake available to him. If Cooney can't catch and shoot he struggles. Mike G can put the ball on the floor, shoot a floater aka be more than 1 shot pony on offense. I think Cooney comes off the bench he may have less pressure and still get mid 20 mpg. JB giving the kid 35 mpg is not helping right now.

 

[HOFCeluck]

It's very Syracusian thing to do. We've dropped ugly games early many, many years and it's not been predictive of anything at all. Only recently have we reeled off big win streaks to start the season (the other time in our history we did that was the late 80's). I will grant you that we have some systemic issues and this team does not pass the eyeball test early.

Anyways, here are all of the relevant losses:

1993 - Lost to BC in early Dec 75-58 (Lost in Sweet 16)

1994 - Lost to George Washington in 1st game of the year 111-104 at home (Lost in 2nd Rnd of NCAA)

1996 - Lost to Kentucky in Nov 87-53 on NCourt, Loss to WVU in early Dec 101-79 (NIT year)

1997 - Lost to Michigan in Dec 93-61 (Sweet 16 loss)

1998 - Lost to Ohio at home 61-55 in early Dec, Lost two more in mid dec (WVU, Seton Hall) (1st Rnd NCAA loss)

2000 - Lost to Tenn at home 83-70 in mid Dec (2nd Rnd NCAA loss)

2001 - Lost to NC State 82-68 then again in the next game to GTech 96-80 (NIT Year)

2002 - Lost 1st game of the year to Memphis 70-63. (Won NCAA title)

2003 - Lost 1st game of the year to Charlotte 96-92 (Sweet 16 team)

2004 - Lost in early Dec to OK State 74-60 on N Court (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2005 - Lost to Florida on a N Court in early Dec 75-70, then the next game to Bucknell 74-69 (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2006 - Lost to Wichita State in early Dec 64-61, then to OK State on a N Court 72-68 (NIT year)

2007 - Lost to Ohio State in Nov on N Court 79-65 (NIT Year)

2008 - Lost to Cleveland State at home 72-69 (Lost Sweet 16)

2012 - Lost to Temple on N Court 83-79 (Lost in Final Four)

Why you'd list the losses in years we went to the NIT is beyond me. You're making my point for me.

The other thing is that we had already beaten quality teams before those losses came. In 2013 we beat a ranked SDSU and won at Arkansas. In 2009 we beat ranked Kansas and Florida teams. In 1999 we won the Maui Invitational.

This loss reminds me most of the loss in 2007-2008 to a mediocre Ohio State team.

 

[OttoMets]

LOOOOOOL. the funny thing is, it wont be on a three, it will be on one of his contested reverse layups over three 6'9" and taller dudes.

Those layup attempts really give new meaning to "attacking the rim."

It's almost funny - terrific that he's trying to do the right thing by driving, but it's pretty much a 0% shot at this stage.

 

[OttoMets]

It's very Syracusian thing to do. We've dropped ugly games early many, many years and it's not been predictive of anything at all. Only recently have we reeled off big win streaks to start the season (the other time in our history we did that was the late 80's). I will grant you that we have some systemic issues and this team does not pass the eyeball test early.

Anyways, here are all of the relevant losses:

1993 - Lost to BC in early Dec 75-58 (Lost in Sweet 16)

1994 - Lost to George Washington in 1st game of the year 111-104 at home (Lost in 2nd Rnd of NCAA)

1996 - Lost to Kentucky in Nov 87-53 on NCourt, Loss to WVU in early Dec 101-79 (NIT year)

1997 - Lost to Michigan in Dec 93-61 (Sweet 16 loss)

1998 - Lost to Ohio at home 61-55 in early Dec, Lost two more in mid dec (WVU, Seton Hall) (1st Rnd NCAA loss)

2000 - Lost to Tenn at home 83-70 in mid Dec (2nd Rnd NCAA loss)

2001 - Lost to NC State 82-68 then again in the next game to GTech 96-80 (NIT Year)

2002 - Lost 1st game of the year to Memphis 70-63. (Won NCAA title)

2003 - Lost 1st game of the year to Charlotte 96-92 (Sweet 16 team)

2004 - Lost in early Dec to OK State 74-60 on N Court (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2005 - Lost to Florida on a N Court in early Dec 75-70, then the next game to Bucknell 74-69 (NCAA 1st rnd loss)

2006 - Lost to Wichita State in early Dec 64-61, then to OK State on a N Court 72-68 (NIT year)

2007 - Lost to Ohio State in Nov on N Court 79-65 (NIT Year)

2008 - Lost to Cleveland State at home 72-69 (Lost Sweet 16)

2012 - Lost to Temple on N Court 83-79 (Lost in Final Four)

Best-case scenario, Michigan in Puerto Rico is the best example there. Average power conference team dominates us on both ends but we develop during the year and put together a good season. (One difference is that we'd already beaten a couple good teams before that loss, TCU and someone else. This year we haven't.)

Worst-case, Ohio State. And that's the game I thought I was watching last night, only that was closer and featured a smoother offense.

Most of those other examples were either close games (this wasn't), games in which we either scored or defended reasonably well (not even close), or losses to really good teams (Cal is not 1994 BC or 2006 Florida...probably not even 2009 Cleveland State).

 

[OttoMets]

Why you'd list the losses in years we went to the NIT is beyond me. You're making my point for me.

The other thing is that we had already beaten quality teams before those losses came. In 2013 we beat a ranked SDSU and won at Arkansas. In 2009 we beat ranked Kansas and Florida teams. In 1999 we won the Maui Invitational.

This loss reminds me most of the loss in 2007-2008 to a mediocre Ohio State team.

Damn, I should have read ahead.

 

[KCJax03]

i don't care about any of that. i don't see much hope for this year. they're all different teams. this one doesn't look very good. oh well

This team has NIT written all over it. Love the 'Cuse so that is not meant in a harsh manner either, just an honest opinion.

Outside of Christmas and occasionally McCollough, I just do not see anyone that exudes any semblance of a presence on the floor. I see a bunch of warm bodies running around without any ability to impact the game directly or make other people more effective. I did not get to see the last 10 minutes of the game but what I saw, or didn't see more importantly, from Joseph among others was rather telling. Can't keep losing your best players early every year without it finally catching up with you.

 

[SBU72]

More Gbinije please

Day after a lose, cup half empty response, is this a year SU fails to break 20 wins? There are plenty of possible difficult games in the OOC schedule (Iowa, Michigan, St. Johns, Villanova and maybe even some others who would normally be cannon fodder?) Then there is the ACC. The team last night did not look like the #5 in the ACC.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Best-case scenario, Michigan in Puerto Rico is the best example there. Average power conference team dominates us on both ends but we develop during the year and put together a good season. (One difference is that we'd already beaten a couple good teams before that loss, TCU and someone else. This year we haven't.)

Worst-case, Ohio State. And that's the game I thought I was watching last night, only that was closer and featured a smoother offense.

Most of those other examples were either close games (this wasn't), games in which we either scored or defended reasonably well (not even close), or losses to really good teams (iCal is not 1994 BC or 2006 Florida...probably not even 2009 Cleveland State).

BTW I'm not sure a top five cuse team losing to a top five Oklahoma state team is the best comparison either. EsPecially given how that season ended.

Milhouse was right. They're all different teams.

 

[TheCusian]

Why you'd list the losses in years we went to the NIT is beyond me. You're making my point for me. The other thing is that we had already beaten quality teams before those losses came. In 2013 we beat a ranked SDSU and won at Arkansas. In 2009 we beat ranked Kansas and Florida teams. In 1999 we won the Maui Invitational. This loss reminds me most of the loss in 2007-2008 to a mediocre Ohio State team.

You must not have read my post. I didn't say it proved we'd be fine. I said an early loss isn't predictive of anything at all. Sometimes it's a blip and sometimes it's a harbinger of NIT season.

Also - stop adding things like "this early" and "already beat quality teams" etc. You are the one who disagreed with my original point and I never added those qualifiers.

 

[TheCusian]

i don't care about any of that. i don't see much hope for this year. they're all different teams. this one doesn't look very good. oh well

Must not have read the thread. Oh well.

 

[TheCusian]

BTW I'm not sure a top five cuse team losing to a top five Oklahoma state team is the best comparison either. EsPecially given how that season ended. Milhouse was right. They're all different teams.

I don't know how to say it any differently. It's not predictive - because they are all different teams. An early loss simply means nothing. It's just a loss.

Anyone using this one game as a predictor of anything in the future is ignorant of the history... The eyeball test would be a better gauge - and to my eyeball we looked awful.

 

[Millhouse]

I don't know how to say it any differently. It's not predictive - because they are all different teams. An early loss simply means nothing. It's just a loss.

Anyone using this one game as a predictor of anything in the future is ignorant of the history... The eyeball test would be a better gauge - and to my eyeball we looked awful.

why in the world are you assuming that people are just reacting to the L and not what they saw?

 

[HOFCeluck]

You must not have read my post. I didn't say it proved we'd be fine. I said an early loss isn't predictive of anything at all. Sometimes it's a blip and sometimes it's a harbinger of NIT season.

Also - stop adding things like "this early" and "already beat quality teams" etc. You are the one who disagreed with my original point and I never added those qualifiers.

You said that you could go back through three decades and find losses like tHis where we ended up fine. Those are your words. And almost all the losses you listed were NOT similar. .. our they happened to Syracuse teams that just weren't that good. Those qualifiers matter.

Syracuse wins games like this. At least they have in my twenty years of following this team. Which is not to say an NIT Berth is fait accompli. But I would say there's more reason for concern than they're was 24 hours ago.